John Connally's Lapel

[David Von Pein]

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-940.html

DAVE REITZES SAID:

Has Pamela [brown] refuted the lapel flip?

Actually, I think it's quite possible she has.

I paid little attention to her article on [the] SBT when it appeared [see the link below], as it's a pretty typical CT rant on that subject:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2372

But, lo and behold, there is a little nugget of research buried within it that casts serious doubt on the legitimacy of the "lapel flip," advanced by Robert Piziali and publicized by Gerald Posner (and endorsed by me for the past decade or so).

Pamela posted an animated GIF of Z223-226 [the one below] that appears to show that the lapel flip was no such thing, but rather a shadow. It looks awfully compelling to me.

Comments, anyone?

JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

Dave:

Yes, I can comment explicitly.

Firstly, Posner has nothing to do with this other than in supporting his own importance. He was very adept at taking credit for things which were observed/investigated/postulated by others without proper attribution.

I had numerous discussions with John Lattimer about this, and in fact have done some photo work on this myself which is on another computer, but which I have posted to this newsgroup [alt.assassination.jfk].

Rather than a "lapel flip", the correct term might be "suit jacket bulge." It's unclear as to whether the lapel actually "flipped." In discussions with Lattimer, he himself was undecided on this issue. My personal opinion is, and always was, that indeed it didn't. I have used the term lapel flip to describe this action however.

In fact, Piziali is a Johnny come lately. As our moderator Prof. McAdams can attest, the most unlikely of candidates, Cyril Wecht, was the first "official" proponent of this idea.

But "somebody" actually beat him to it.

I can assure you, it is no "shadow" and I go into this in great detail in my book.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I think Governor Connally's lapel is moving. It's not just a shadow (as some people have theorized).

Although, due to the apparent movement of that same part of Connally's jacket at a point which I believe was PRIOR to the bullet passing through Connally's body, I've revised my thinking on the "lapel flip" over the years.

I now feel it's quite possible that a combination of the wind (which was gusty that day) and Oswald's CE399 bullet are causing the movement of Connally's lapel that we see in the Zapruder Film.

Something appears to be happening with the right side of Connally's suit coat in this Z222-Z223 toggling clip:

And then we get the bigger "bulging out" (for lack of a better term) of that same area of Connally's jacket at the precise instant when I think the bullet is striking Connally (at Z224). There is no way this is only a shadow, IMO:

In the final analysis, the "lapel flip" or "jacket bulge" is probably the LEAST compelling evidence on the Z-Film that proves the SBT is occurring at precisely Z224. There are multiple other indicators that show JBC is "reacting" to an external stimulus just after Z224, e.g.:

JBC opens his mouth at Z225 (his mouth is closed at Z224), and a startled (or pained) look comes over his face; his shoulders "hunch" up, or flinch, starting at exactly Z225.

This "hunching" is extremely important, IMO, because it's showing us an involuntary reaction on the part of the Governor. So we don't need to depend only on the CLOTHING (the lapel) of Connally to prove the Single-Bullet Theory. Connally's OWN BODY is telling us that the bullet has just pierced him. Just look:

Here's another clip showing the very noticeable (but often overlooked) "hunching" of Connally's shoulders and the distressed look that crosses his face at Z225:

And then there's also the very important "hat flip" of JBC's, which begins just an instant later, at Z226:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2tK_GSE7HOg/UolSwJ5-AEI/AAAAAAAAw1s/9I0RZMn_3yY/s1600/109.+Z225-Z226+Toggling+Clip.gif

And I challenge anyone to look at the Zapruder Film clip presented below a few times in a row and arrive at the following conclusion ---- There's NO WAY that President Kennedy and Governor Connally were struck by the same bullet! No way!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AXW-bE6isPQ/UolNvHneNSI/AAAAAAAAw1I/wwG51z8e7zY/s1600/Z-Film+Clip+(SBT+In+Motion)(2).gif

Anyone who could utter the above words after watching that Z-Film clip must either be blind or closely related to Oliver Stone.

PAMELA BROWN SAID:

That is just silly. There is no 'bulging' of the jacket. Has it occurred to you that there may have been a shadow from more than one source? Probably not.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The bulging jacket is obvious.

PAMELA BROWN SAID:

No it is not. It is a speculation imposed on us by Posner. It does not take into account the fact that there are much more reasonable explanations. The idea falls prey to the fallacy of false alternatives.

JOHN FIORENTINO SAID:

The fact that you believe ANY of this was "Posner's" idea shows me that you really haven't done your homework.

MORE:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/05/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-940.html

Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

Edited July 3, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

If the suit jacket bulged out from debris striking the inside of it, how would this make the lapel flip out even further? I don't see any possible connection.

[David Von Pein]

Bob,

One possible explanation (and undoubtedly not the only one) is that the wind accentuated the coat/lapel "bulge/flip" after Connally's suit coat had been moved to some extent by Oswald's bullet.

But the notion that John Connally's coat just HAPPENS to bulge outward a great deal at virtually the exact same instant that a bullet is striking the Texas Governor (with that bullet creating damage to the right side of JBC's jacket) is almost impossible to contemplate, IMO.

Sure, I guess such a miraculous "coincidence" IS possible. But is it very likely?

Edited May 11, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

I have never been able to see this "bulging out" of the coat you people speak of.

[David Von Pein]

Whether it's called a bulge or a flip, what's really the difference? The point is---the right side of Connally's coat is displaced quite a bit between Z-frames 223 and 224. And the right side of Connally's coat ended up with a bullet hole in it that same day.

What do you think is causing this movement of JBC's coat, Bob? ....

Edited May 11, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

The battle of the bulge. How about this? The person in the best position to say if Connally was shot by the same bullet that hit JFK was the person who was there and got shot. That would be John Connally. And what did he insist?

[David Von Pein]

You must be kidding, Ron.

John Connally was THE WORST eyewitness in all of Dealey Plaza when it comes to being able to tell anybody if he was hit by the same bullet as JFK. Connally wasn't looking at the President---so how could he possibly know for sure? He couldn't.

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-did-john-connally-see.html

Edited May 11, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

You must be kidding, Ron.

John Connally was THE WORST eyewitness in all of Dealey Plaza when it comes to being able to tell anybody if he was hit by the same bullet as JFK. Connally wasn't looking at the President---so how could he possibly know for sure? He couldn't.

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-did-john-connally-see.html

Well, Kellerman said he heard JFK say,"I've been hit, take me to the hospital." Why didn't Connally hear it? He was right there between them. Why didn't Connally say, "It hit me too! Take me with you!"

[Robert Prudhomme]

This forum has become the new DVP propaganda site. Its days are numbered if this trend continues.

[Jon G. Tidd]

If, and that's if, the extant Z-film is a fabrication, no safe conclusions can be drawn from viewing it.

[Ron Ecker]

If, and that's if, the extant Z-film is a fabrication, no safe conclusions can be drawn from viewing it.

True. And the conspirators (the few who may still be living, and more importantly their heirs who carry on the timeless task of cover-up) love to see us argue about things like John Connally's lapel.

[David Von Pein]

This forum has become the new DVP propaganda site. Its days are numbered if this trend continues.

Translation....

DVP should not be allowed to express his views on The Education Forum.

Either that, or....

DVP should never be allowed to start a thread on The Edcuation Forum, because whenever he does it looks like nothing more than LN "propaganda" to me [Robert Prudhomme].

Prudhomme seems to have a lot in common with somebody calling himself Ralph Yates....

"I'm against censorship, but persons like Mr Von Pein have crossed a line where they no longer deserve fair hearing amongst honest people. I think we also need to figure out a way to move towards prosecuting them. These persons are just in flagrant denial of the obvious evidence of Oswald's CIA relationship." -- Ralph Yates; 1/31/2015

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/02/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-891.html

Edited May 12, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Kellerman said he heard JFK say,"I've been hit, take me to the hospital." Why didn't Connally hear it? He was right there between them. Why didn't Connally say, "It hit me too! Take me with you!"

Ron Ecker has now taken to just making up alleged quotes from the mouth of JFK.

"Take me to the hospital..."??? For Pete sake. LOL.

Ron, do YOU think Connally was looking at JFK when JFK was first hit by a bullet? If not, then tell me HOW Connally could have known with such certainty that the SBT is false? And as you correctly pointed out, Connally didn't hear JFK say anything at all.

"My God, I'm hit!" -----> jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-94.html

Edited May 12, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

Kellerman said he heard JFK say,"I've been hit, take me to the hospital." Why didn't Connally hear it? He was right there between them. Why didn't Connally say, "It hit me too! Take me with you!"

Ron Ecker has now taken to just making up alleged quotes from the mouth of JFK.

"Take me to the hospital..."??? For Pete sake. LOL.

Ron, do YOU think Connally was looking at JFK when JFK was first hit by a bullet? If not, then tell me HOW Connally could have known with such certainty that the SBT is false? And as you correctly pointed out, Connally didn't hear JFK say anything at all.

"My God, I'm hit!" -----> jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-94.html

I was quoting Kellerman from memory. If he didn't say "take me to the hospital," it just goes to show that my memory is not what it used to be. In any case, Kellerman was lying, was he not, about hearing JFK say anything? Either that or he was hallucinating, in which case he shouldn't have been doing that job anyway. Coupled with his buddy the driver, who slowed (or some say stopped) to look back at JFK and watch till his head exploded before hitting the gas, there was some strange crap going on in that car.

[David Von Pein]

I don't think Roy Kellerman was a "xxxx". He was wrong (i.e., "mistaken"), but not a xxxx.

IMO, Kellerman heard Governor Connally shouting "My God, they're going to kill us all".

I know that Connally didn't have the Boston accent that JFK had, but given the fact the zero other people in the car heard JFK utter a word, and since we know that Gov. Connally DID utter the above words (including two of the words Kellerman claimed he heard JFK say--"My God"), well, in my view, the answer is that Kellerman must have heard Connally and not Kennedy.

Edited May 12, 2015 by David Von Pein