Prayer Man: A Memo to James Gordon

[J. Raymond Carroll]

There's also this. Prayer Man appears to be much shorter than Frazier. It follows then that Prayer "Man" might very well be a woman. Was it Sarah Stanton? I don't know. But the argument we can assume it was Oswald even though no one saw Oswald on the steps and Oswald himself said he was in the building, is a weak one. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Where is the extraordinary evidence?

Prayer Man does not remotely look like a woman. He looks like Lee Oswald.

And he is leaning back into the corner, which makes him appear shorter.

And he told Will Fritz that he was "Out with Bill Shelley in front" when the President passed by.

The only extraordinary claim here is the claim that Lee shot JFK. That is the extraordinary claim

that requires extraordinary proof -- something no one will ever see.

I got news, Pat: Every man is presumed innocent until proven guilty!

Edited June 27, 2015 by J. Raymond Carroll

[David Von Pein]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

J. Raymond Carroll is one of the very few conspiracy theorists on the planet who thinks Lee Oswald was totally innocent of everything regarding JFK's death---that is: Lee didn't even have any knowledge at all of the plot to kill the President. Lee was as innocent as Mother Teresa, per J. Raymond. That's how far afield from reality Mr. Carroll has strayed.

And I see that Raymond has been gullible enough to fall for the worn-out "Oswald Was Doorway Man" schtick too. Oh, my. Ray is in trouble.

I wonder if Ray can explain to us why Oswald HIMSELF lied about his location at the time of the assassination? Or does Raymond think that being on the front steps of the Book Depository is the same thing as being "inside" the building?


RAYMOND CARROLL SAID:

Lee Oswald was "out with Bill Shelley in front," just as he told Fritz. The front steps are actually "in the building," as you can see for yourself if you go there.

The proof is in the Darnell film, discovered by Sean Murphy, and you can see it for yourself in this thread on the Education Forum.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Nobody who was standing on the TSBD steps would ever say they were "in the building". That's nuts. The steps are OUTSIDE the front door, for Pete sake [see photo below]. And it goes to show how desperate CTers like Raymond Carroll truly are to exonerate a double-murderer.




RAYMOND CARROLL SAID:

He never said he was "inside," he said he was "in the building." Since the steps he was standing on are within the building's structure, he was quite correct in stating he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" yet still "in the building."

Actually, we cannot hear the question in the video, and the question may have been "were you in the building TODAY?"

Anyway, we don't have to parse what he said. The Darnell film PROVES he was on the front steps.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

The Darnell Film proves no such thing. Your "Prayer Man" could be almost anybody. But you now like the idea that "PM" was Oswald---so, it's Oswald.

And we most certainly CAN hear the reporter's question to Oswald. The reporter clearly says: "Were you in the building at the time?"

Oswald's answer: "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

And what do you think Oswald thought the reporter meant by "AT THE TIME"? Considering the previous question had been: "Did you shoot the President?", I don't think there's much doubt.

See the video below. It is the highest quality version of Oswald's "patsy" statement you will ever see or hear, because it was culled from the excellent 2009 documentary "JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America":

Again, only a person hell-bent on finding Oswald innocent for some odd reason could possibly think these steps are located "in the building"....




David Von Pein
July 2014

[Clive Largey]

If Truly hadn't been in Baker's way he would have gone straight back to work, so why would anyone on the steps be any wiser?

If someone was stood on the steps and went back to work which seems to have been Truly's intention (yes really) then "the time of the shooting" would be a guess based on when someone first filled them in.

Lovelady said himself and Shelley had to be told there was a shooting and doesn't the body language of BWF back this up?

The man looks less than bothered and PM himself whoever he is, is in a relaxed posture.

Oswald was told there was a shooting by Truly, whilst they were in the building.

Truly learnt the news from Baker, again, whilst both men were inside the building.

[Clive Largey]

J. Raymond Carroll is one of the very few conspiracy theorists on the planet who thinks Lee Oswald was totally innocent of everything regarding JFK's death---that is: Lee didn't even have any knowledge at all of the plot to kill the President. Lee was as innocent as Mother Teresa, per J. Raymond. That's how far afield from reality Mr. Carroll has strayed.

Lee was accused of killing dead two men by shots to the head and body, a quick death.

MT is accused of causing continuous daily suffering to thousands of men and women which often led to a needless long drawn out agonising death. You still think MT a saint David then it is you that needs the check up or rather perhaps, simply a more up to date reference.

[David Von Pein]

You think Mother Teresa was in Dealey Plaza toting a rifle on the Knoll, do you Clive? That's an intriguing theory.

[Clive Largey]

Look into it.

[Thomas Graves]

deleted and moved to a new thread

Edited June 28, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Pat Speer]

My responses in bold.

There's also this. Prayer Man appears to be much shorter than Frazier. It follows then that Prayer "Man" might very well be a woman. Was it Sarah Stanton? I don't know. But the argument we can assume it was Oswald even though no one saw Oswald on the steps and Oswald himself said he was in the building, is a weak one. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Where is the extraordinary evidence?

Prayer Man does not remotely look like a woman. He looks like Lee Oswald.

No, not at all.

And he is leaning back into the corner, which makes him appear shorter.

Enough to account for the severe difference in height with Frazier? Perhaps a re-enactment with a man Oswald's height and a man Frazier's height is in order.

And he told Will Fritz that he was "Out with Bill Shelley in front" when the President passed by.

Nope. Will Fritz wrote notes saying "Out with Bill Shelley in front". When one reads the report written on these notes, it seems probable this is a reference to his leaving out the front door after the shooting, not his being outside during the shooting.

The only extraordinary claim here is the claim that Lee shot JFK. That is the extraordinary claim

that requires extraordinary proof -- something no one will ever see.

I got news, Pat: Every man is presumed innocent until proven guilty!

Wait. So you have it in your head that anyone thinking Oswald isn't Prayer Man...is claiming Oswald was guilty? Where do you get this from? The official story--the one supported by the witness statements, suggests Oswald was cool as a cucumber when first seen after the shooting...wearing clothes that didn't match that of the shooter on the sixth floor...in a location more suggestive of his innocence than his guilt. That's enough for me to have reasonable doubt. When you add in the difficulty of the shooting, and the probability he hadn't practiced with the rifle, and Frazier's testimony reflecting that Oswald didn't bring the rifle into work that morning, and then his claiming he was a "patsy" before being shot down in a room filled with police, well, then you have more than reasonable doubt, IMO.

So, for me, Prayer Man is a needless distraction. Frazier has consistently claimed the bag was too small, and his description of the shots is also quite helpful. I have met him, and his son. It is my impression that he just wants' to tell the truth. I don't know anyone who has met him, and spent time with him, who thinks he's lying to cover up that Oswald was on the steps.

So, to me, it's plain silly to throw one of our most important witnesses under the bus, simply because a shadowy figure in some footage kinda sorta looks like Oswald...to a small minority of researchers.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Pat Speer

[Vanessa Loney]

My responses in bold.

There's also this. Prayer Man appears to be much shorter than Frazier. It follows then that Prayer "Man" might very well be a woman. Was it Sarah Stanton? I don't know. But the argument we can assume it was Oswald even though no one saw Oswald on the steps and Oswald himself said he was in the building, is a weak one. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Where is the extraordinary evidence?

Prayer Man does not remotely look like a woman. He looks like Lee Oswald.

No, not at all.

And he is leaning back into the corner, which makes him appear shorter.

Enough to account for the severe difference in height with Frazier? Perhaps a re-enactment with a man Oswald's height and a man Frazier's height is in order.

And he told Will Fritz that he was "Out with Bill Shelley in front" when the President passed by.

Nope. Will Fritz wrote notes saying "Out with Bill Shelley in front". When one reads the report written on these notes, it seems probable this is a reference to his leaving out the front door after the shooting, not his being outside during the shooting.

The only extraordinary claim here is the claim that Lee shot JFK. That is the extraordinary claim

that requires extraordinary proof -- something no one will ever see.

I got news, Pat: Every man is presumed innocent until proven guilty!

Wait. So you have it in your head that anyone thinking Oswald isn't Prayer Man...is claiming Oswald was guilty? Where do you get this from? The official story--the one supported by the witness statements, suggests Oswald was cool as a cucumber when first seen after the shooting...wearing clothes that didn't match that of the shooter on the sixth floor...in a location more suggestive of his innocence than his guilt. That's enough for me to have reasonable doubt. When you add in the difficulty of the shooting, and the probability he hadn't practiced with the rifle, and Frazier's testimony reflecting that Oswald didn't bring the rifle into work that morning, and then his claiming he was a "patsy" before being shot down in a room filled with police, well, then you have more than reasonable doubt, IMO.

So, for me, Prayer Man is a needless distraction. Frazier has consistently claimed the bag was too small, and his description of the shots is also quite helpful. I have met him, and his son. It is my impression that he just wants' to tell the truth. I don't know anyone who has met him, and spent time with him, who thinks he's lying to cover up that Oswald was on the steps.

So, to me, it's plain silly to throw one of our most important witnesses under the bus, simply because a shadowy figure in some footage kinda sorta looks like Oswald...to a small minority of researchers.

Hi Pat

In regards to the issue of Prayer Man being a woman. I'd have to say the figure doesn't remotely look like a 1960's woman - in that they all seem to be wearing dresses, big hair, makeup, high heels and are otherwise 'done up' to the nines in comparison with PM.

If PM is a woman then she's a very strange bird for 1963 - mans' haircut, male pattern hairline, man's shirt. Just take a look at the other women around PM he doesn't match them at all.

I have no doubt at all that PM is a male.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Vanessa Loney

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Enough to account for the severe difference in height with Frazier? Perhaps a re-enactment with a man Oswald's height and a man Frazier's height is in order.

Perhaps, but anyone can get a friend with a camera and reproduce the same effect. Common sense and your own experience will tell you

that leaning back against a wall will make you appear shorter.

Nope. Will Fritz wrote notes saying "Out with Bill Shelley in front". When one reads the report written on these notes, it seems probable this is a reference to his leaving out the front door after the shooting, not his being outside during the shooting.

It seems quite IMPROBABLE, since we know that Shelley was gone by the time Lee left the building. The only time he could have been out with Bill Shelley in front was just before and during the time JFK was passing the building.

Will Fritz's testimony is weird, and often appears evasive, especially when talking about where Lee said he was.

But during Fritz's testimony, this gem slipped out, corroborating his notes:

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL.

What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement….. and he didn’t think-I also asked him why he left the building….

4H213

One of the employees, of course, was Bill Shelley.

Frazier has consistently claimed the bag was too small, and his description of the shots is also quite helpful. I have met him, and his son. It is my impression that he just wants' to tell the truth. I don't know anyone who has met him, and spent time with him, who thinks he's lying to cover up that Oswald was on the steps.

I have no doubt Frazier & his sister lied about the alleged bag. I don't know why they lied, but they did.

Jack Daugherty saw Lee arrive at work, and said Lee was carrying no bag.

And I have equally no doubt that today Frazier is lying about Prayer Man.

Kinda amazin' he can't ID PM, don't you think?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Pat

I do not think PM could be Sarah Stanton, as Pauline Saunders places her at the east end of the entrance, and PM is at the west end of the entrance.

"Pauline Saunders: (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “At approximately 12:20 PM on November 22, 1963, I left the lunchroom on the second floor of the building and went out the front entrance to await the arrival of the presidential motorcade which I knew was due to pass the Depository about 12:30 PM. I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository. To the best of my recollection I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and although I knew him by sight as an employee of the building I did not know him by name and had never spoken to him at any time. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the Texas School Book Depository Building at any time on the morning of November 22, 1963. After the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island in front of the Depository Building to see what had happened. I remained there a moment and then returned to the Depository Building through the main entrance. I then walked to the second floor where I usually worked.” "

This excerpt is from a post you made on this Forum on March 2, 2012.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[David Josephs]

Let's straighten a few things out here.

"Out Front with Shelley" was clarified by Bookout in his report to have occurred AFTER the Baker incidence...

Whether this was added cover for his being PM... who knows...

The standard signed statement that said the witness did not see or speak to Oswald at any time also appears to be a CYA move... since no one is allowed to see Oswald during that time, no one did.

The color image is from Hughes showing what appears to be Lovelady in the WEST corner of the entrance yet only seconds later (in the B&W underneath) he is over to the EAST and the PM is obviously deep in the WEST corner...

I think we also agree that the only man in a suit on the top step is Shelley (B&W in Altgens) and would have been also to the EAST of the doorway.

And that in the bottom right image, Lovelady is once again looking at the camera while the limo is already headed down Elm...

In the bottom left, Lovelady appears to me as having disappeared... with Wesley at the top of the steps almost looking at PM...

Other than Oswald, have we created a list of who left it still may be?

To me we have rolled up sleeves, a watch or bracelet on the right hand (left handed person? - in Minsk he is wearing a watch on his right hand)

here too is a slowed down version of the post shooting film as they file back into the TSBD..

And I'm sure you've seen the Tramp photo in front of the TSBD with who appears to be Oswald out front talking to a policeman

[David Josephs]

That's very possible Randy, thanks for mentioning it...

Let's assume he was literal - and that it is Shelley in the suit and tie... PM is most definitely was out front with Shelley at the 1st floor main entrance as the limo passes

The stairs out front could count as the first floor - yet that takes a more liberal view of the definition.

The other thing to remember is that if Fritz, Hosty & Bookout are accurate, the arrest shirt is not on Oswald until AFTER he returns to his room making Bledsoe's testimony and the altered Altgens theories moot.

If not Oswald... we need to offer a corroborated alternative... unless there was something new, we haven't found one - correct?

[Robert Howard]

If everyone had had a camera as good as Stuart Reed Jr., [he took the photos in front of the Texas Theater of coffee table book quality] that day, we wouldn't even be having this debate. because it would be obvious who it was. I do think, David Joseph's photos he posted are extremely interesting, especially the last one.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

As Sean Murphy has said, I think the "clarification" by Bookout in the report provided above is an attempt to transpose some key elements of what Oswald had really claimed into a different timeframe. This was done to deprive Oswald of an airtight alibi.

Greetings, Randy:

I Hope all is well with you.

As you already know, I have the highest regard for the incredible research of my fellow countryman, Sean Murphy,

for which all serious researchers are deeply indebted.

There is no doubt Sean is on to something fishy re: the Bookhout Report. But I think Sean made a wrong turn

when he concluded that Fritz copied from Bookhout's notes (someone please correct me if I am wrong,

but from memory I don't recall that ANYONE has ever seen Bookhout's notes).

I believe it was the other way around: Bookhout copied from Fritz's notes, and that is where he learned

that Lee was "out with Bill Shelley in front," from which he concocted his ridiculous story.

Fritz testified that he "kept no notes at the time," although we know from Lee Oswald, via Secret Service agent

Thomas Kelley, that Fritz took notes during the interrogations. When Fritz's notes finally surfaced after

the enactment of the JFK Act, it became obvious that Fritz was lying when he said he "kept no notes"

of the interrogations.

The notes that surfaced were obviously not emotion recollected in tranquility; they were raw notes made

in the heat of the moment. So Will Fritz is a PERJURER!

Fritz, by his own testimony, began interrogating Lee at about 2. 25. Hosty and Bookhout (by their testimony)

did not arrive until 3.15.

It is obvious from the testimony of Hosty and Bookhout that the questioning was completely controlled

by Fritz, and that the FBI guys were practically mute.

I submit that any questions about Lee's whereabouts at the time JFK passed the building had already been asked by the time Hosty/Bookhout arrived, and that their joint report simply includes what Fritz told them.

It is amazing that, when Bookhout gave his testimony to the Warren commission, he was never asked about

his report and he was never asked where Lee said he was when the President passed by.

Bookhout was given the opportunity to add anything that he had not been asked about, but he had nothing to add.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Bookhout.pdf

It is equally amazing that when Hosty testified about that subject, his testimony is almost a word-for-word

repeat of the Hosty/Bookhout report.

Sean Murphy is right that there is something fishy going on here!

And the recessed entrance to the building is on the first floor.

I believe Oswald was on the first floor at the time of the assassination.

And Lee would have been lying if he said he was not "in the building"

when the President passed by.

Edited June 28, 2015 by J. Raymond Carroll