PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Ray Mitcham]

"Film forensics- credit to Brian Doyle & Duncan MacRae- have proven that the figure is standing at the front edge of the landing, and therefore a scientifically valid height comparison can be made with Wesley Frazier. "

[Andrej Stancak]

I apologise to contributors of this thread and the Administrator for not posting my reconstructions of the Wiegman's scene at this stage. This is related to the amount of work which this entails and a limited time I can devote to this project. 

[Sandy Larsen]

I think I speak for others too when I say Andrej, take your time... all the time you need. Your work is very much appreciated.

(Which, incidentally, I say even though I believe Prayer Man was standing far back in the corner of the landing, not out on the steps as you have him. My mind can be change.)

[Thomas Graves]

30 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I think I speak for others too when I say Andrej, take your time... all the time you need. Your work is very much appreciated.

(Which, incidentally, I say even though I believe Prayer Man was standing far back in the corner of the landing, not out on the steps as you have him. My mind can be change.)

Here's a frame from Couch / Darnell that Bill Miller recently posted on another threat.  IMHO, it tends to support Andrej's theory because in it we can see Frazier's head sticking way up above a white umbrella or something, and we can see the much shorter Prayer man, too, back there to the left, and their height difference is such that, IMHO, Prayer Man must be standing one step down from the landing.

 

--  Tommy

Of course I suppose PM might have gone down a step or two right after the final shot ...

 

Edited December 16, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Here's a frame from Couch / Darnell that Bill Miller recently posted on another threat.  IMHO, it tends to support Andrej's theory because in it we can see Frazier's head sticking way up above a white umbrella or something, and we can see the much shorter Prayer man, too, back there to the left, and their height difference is such that, IMHO, Prayer Man must be standing one step down from the landing.

 

--  Tommy

Of course I suppose PM might have gone down a step or two right after the final shot ...

 

Tommy,

Look at how much higher the front of the ceiling looks than the back of the ceiling. Yet both are the same height. That's perspective at work.

Of course, the same principal applies to people. The further to the back they are,  the shorter they will look.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

Look at how much higher the front of the ceiling looks than the back of the ceiling. Yet both are the same height. That's perspective at work.

Of course, the same principal applies to people. The further to the back they are,  the shorter they will look.

Of course.

[Ed LeDoux]

So glad Prayer Man is being researched but someone saying things such as Prayer Man's shoulders are squared after being out of square (?)
without showing any photogrammetry to base this claim on is where the research turns to snake oil salesmanship rather than a prognosis.
Opinions are one thing but when the person whom says certain things are fact without a fact to back it up are wasting your time not with opinion but disinformation.

The height of a person leaning against a wall is shorter than the same person standing erect. This is a fact. A leaning man will be shorter than his actual height.
If Prayer Man were TALLER than what Lee could possibly be standing erect then you have impugned Prayer Man as Lee.
But then you can't see his tippy toes can you... ?
 
But stumbling about with a premise that a short PM disqualifies it as Lee is a faulty one.  
And a wastage.

It goes back to the other faulty premise that it was a woman and thus short.
Also the buttons, and other faulty arguments, like purses, or a woman's face.

I had to destroy this as being complete bunk.


The two repeating images of "faces" circled in yellow by me, prove the unsuitability of the gif, the frames being used and the waste of time immense.

But please do continue the Prayer Man research.  I enjoy the flat earth being returned to its curved self at the end of every day.
Cheers, Ed


 

[Guest]

On 12/16/2016 at 5:07 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Here's a frame from Couch / Darnell that Bill Miller recently posted on another threat.  IMHO, it tends to support Andrej's theory because in it we can see Frazier's head sticking way up above a white umbrella or something, and we can see the much shorter Prayer man, too, back there to the left, and their height difference is such that, IMHO, Prayer Man must be standing one step down from the landing.

 

--  Tommy

Of course I suppose PM might have gone down a step or two right after the final shot ...

 

That is not a white umbrella Thomas, that is the sunlight on Frazier.

The people below Frazier are Reese and Dean.

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

So glad Prayer Man is being researched but someone saying things such as Prayer Man's shoulders are squared after being out of square (?)
without showing any photogrammetry to base this claim on is where the research turns to snake oil salesmanship rather than a prognosis.
Opinions are one thing but when the person whom says certain things are fact without a fact to back it up are wasting your time not with opinion but disinformation.

The height of a person leaning against a wall is shorter than the same person standing erect. This is a fact. A leaning man will be shorter than his actual height.
If Prayer Man were TALLER than what Lee could possibly be standing erect then you have impugned Prayer Man as Lee.
But then you can't see his tippy toes can you... ?
 
But stumbling about with a premise that a short PM disqualifies it as Lee is a faulty one.  
And a wastage.

It goes back to the other faulty premise that it was a woman and thus short.
Also the buttons, and other faulty arguments, like purses, or a woman's face.

I had to destroy this as being complete bunk.


The two repeating images of "faces" circled in yellow by me, prove the unsuitability of the gif, the frames being used and the waste of time immense.

But please do continue the Prayer Man research.  I enjoy the flat earth being returned to its curved self at the end of every day.
Cheers, Ed


 

Bring on Skullman sipping from Oz's tea.

Superb find Duncan MacRae 

[Claude Barnabe]

I have followed the Prayer Person thread from its inception, the posted images have been intriguing but far from definitive. I so much wanted LHO to be on that step, but, the testimony simply does not support it. Consider the following, here is a sampling of first day/first weekend statements from verifiable persons ON the steps:

Mrs Avery (Charles T) Davis - 11/23 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=27

agents: Nat Pinkston & George Carlson

 

Mrs Ruth (Joe Eddie) Dean - 11/24 (time unknown) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=47

agent: Joe Abernathy

 

Mrs Madie (James W) Reese - 11/23 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=62

agents: David Barry & Louis Kelley

 

Ms Pauline Saunders - 11/24 (time unknown) https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=63

agents: Robert Basham & Robert Anderson

 

Ms Sarah Stanton - 11/23 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10408#relPageId=24

agents: Nat Pinkston & George Carlson

 

BW Frazier - 11/22 affidavit: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=227

 

Billy Nolan Lovelady -11/22 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=337

agents: Robert Barrett & John Almon

 

Joe Molina - 11/23 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=379

agent: James Weir

 

Otis Williams - 11/23 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=67

agent: Paul Scott & Ed Hardip

In this compilation there are (12) different FBI agents taking statements from (9) different witnesses prior to Oswald's death. Not one witness stated they saw Oswald on the steps at the time of the shooting. If Oswald had lived to go to trial and any one of those witnesses had testified to something different than what's on those affidavits, I imagine it would have been hell to pay. It strains credulity to think that had Oswald been there as the images suggest, that no one would have noticed him. Unbelievable. And a couple of notes. Oswald was arrested with his marine corps ring and bracelet. To trade-off his wedding ring for that bling, on that day, well he was up to his eyeballs in something. What if the curtain rods he was carrying that Friday morning was a rifle receiver/barrel. On a Carcano doesn't that amount to a 24=27 inches. Just sayin.

 

[Guest]

This argument has been brought forward before, but I commend you for adding plenty of detail.

 

The question is this though.

In 60's Dallas, in a deep South conservative state.

Oswald branded a commie within an hour of his arrest.

Been employed for about a month.

Supposedly kept to himself.

Who would be seen as too friendly with Oswald? Look at the shtick Frazier got from the day of the assassination.

Who said they saw Carl Jones on the steps? A negro.

Who said they saw Joe Molina (a Hispanic besides Vicky Adams after returning from the rail road yard) on those steps? We know what happened to him after midnight.

Answer: no one.

 

In my third chapter I will categorically list the TSBD lies that have been put together to keep this rubbish of Oswald being the shooter afloat.

Well it's the Titanic really...

Not out until Summer 2017

 

And if you are or anyone else who has doubts about this then help along and try and get a better image.

I for one would love to put this matter fully at rest.

 

The evidence (!) points to where Oswald was at that time 

The image is the clincher to some. To us the cherry.

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Claude Barnabe]

Bart,

   Your passion is compelling but witnesses such as Joe Molina had a chance before the HSCA to blow this wide open. All he had to say was 'yeah but LHO was standing there just to my right'. He couldn't say so because it just wasn't true. I don't believe there was any Dallas pressure or fed pressure that could have shut him up at that time. Just doesn't make sense. Respectfully.

[Guest]

You seem to ignore some serious facts Claude.

And beliefs are odd. Follow the evidence.

 No one admitted seeing Jones or Molina  and both were out there a lot longer than Oswald and in positions where they could be more easily seen.

[Sandy Larsen]

7 hours ago, Claude Barnabe said:

Bart,

   Your passion is compelling but witnesses such as Joe Molina had a chance before the HSCA to blow this wide open. All he had to say was 'yeah but LHO was standing there just to my right'. He couldn't say so because it just wasn't true. I don't believe there was any Dallas pressure or fed pressure that could have shut him up at that time. Just doesn't make sense. Respectfully.

I think it should be painfully obvious to every assassination researcher that the government did everything necessary to paint Oswald as the lone assassin. Certainly they would not have allowed any testimony of Oswald on the TSBD steps to enter the record unchanged.

And what of the HSCA? I have pretty good knowledge of what really happened regarding the head wounds. And when I look at what the HSCA did with that, It is clear to me that they were not looking for the truth. What the DID do was alter the evidence to more  convincingly support the SBT.

With that in mind, I have no reason to believe that the HSCA would have allowed to stand any testimony that supported the idea of Oswald standing on the TSBD steps during the shooting.

I believe that if anybody saw Oswald on the steps during the shooting, either that witness was pressured to change their testimony, or their testimony was altered afterward to remove their Oswald sighting.

[Claude Barnabe]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe that if anybody saw Oswald on the steps during the shooting, either that witness was pressured to change their testimony, or their testimony was altered afterward to remove their Oswald sighting.

Sandy, do you believe the first day/weekend FBI affidavits cited have been changed? You've already answered the question above, just want to be sure.