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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


Guest Duncan MacRae

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Bill:

How long would you think Prayer Man stood in the doorway? My estimate would be about one minute, and almost certainly less than 2 minutes, This is a very short time window. He stood in the shadow whilst people were distracted by finding out what happened, and it was only for a very brief period of time. Those standing on steps in front of him did not see him coming to the doorway. Some people from outside may have seen him standing there but did not pay any attention to the doorway occupants. If you would ask them who they remember standing in the doorway they would recall no one. People who knew Prayer Man were those standing on the top landing and those who lingered in the doorway on top steps just after the shooting: Joe Molina, Wesley Frazier,Billy Lovelady, Bill Shelley, Sarah Stanton, and Pauline Saunders, Frazier was very close and had Prayer Man in his range of vision, he had to know. The fact that no one had said who Prayer Man was (Frazier was asked directly some two years ago) is very telling.

Your ignorance as to resolving the question who Prayer Man was is staggering, Also staggering is your attempt to ridicule the question itself. If you find the problem laughable, why do you return to it? Prayer Man was there seconds after the shooting and if he were Oswald, it completely shatters the Warren Commission not by some indirect circumstances but directly and completely. This is a serious question. It can be answered by either saying who else than Oswald he was, or by a meticulous research aimed to assemble pieces of this puzzle. This is what many in this and the original Prayer Man thread do. 

If you disagree with the possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald, this is fine with me, and I will try to convince you with my research and arguments. If you disagree, then you (and others having doubts about Oswald hypothesis) have a problem as it is then your turn to suggest who Prayer Man was. There is no third alternative to these two. A third alternative would be to avoid trying which may be all right too, however, it is enough to say it once and then quit posting on Prayer Man subject.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

How long would you think Prayer Man stood in the doorway? My estimate would be about one minute, and almost certainly less than 2 minutes, This is a very short time window. He stood in the shadow whilst people were distracted by finding out what happened, and it was only for a very brief period of time. Those standing on steps in front of him did not see him coming to the doorway. Some people from outside may have seen him standing there but did not pay any attention to the doorway occupants. If you would ask them who they remember standing in the doorway they would recall no one. People who knew Prayer Man were those standing on the top landing and those who lingered in the doorway on top steps just after the shooting: Joe Molina, Wesley Frazier,Billy Lovelady, Bill Shelley, Sarah Stanton, and Pauline Saunders, Frazier was very close and had Prayer Man in his range of vision, he had to know. The fact that no one had said who Prayer Man was (Frazier was asked directly some two years ago) is very telling.

Everything underlined in bold above is speculative in my view. (By the way - the shadow remark is you looking to make something sound sinister for it was nothing more shade and in the real world it would not have prevented anyone from seeing this person quite easily - its simply shade that only on a poor quality film and from a considerable distance from the camera does it hinder making out who this person is) The film quality is such that this individual could very well be nearby both prior to and after the shooting and just not be recognizable in these images. I believe that I have read that there were new people working in the building as there had been construction going on. To think that someone believes that because no one knew who Prayer Man was that this was "very telling" seems rather "very telling" to me. "Frazier was asked some two years ago" and didn't know who he was 50 years after the fact - you must be kidding! A more ridiculous thought would have been to have shown Frazier this worthless image and ask him to ID the person .... a person that Frazier may not have recalled seeing before or had seen him and not given him a second thought.

Your ignorance as to resolving the question who Prayer Man was is staggering, Also staggering is your attempt to ridicule the question itself. If you find the problem laughable, why do you return to it? Prayer Man was there seconds after the shooting and if he were Oswald, it completely shatters the Warren Commission not by some indirect circumstances but directly and completely. This is a serious question. It can be answered by either saying who else than Oswald he was, or by a meticulous research aimed to assemble pieces of this puzzle. This is what many in this and the original Prayer Man thread do. 

My "ignorance to resolving the question who Prayer Man is" is just fine. I would like to think that I know that this poor distant image is little more than tabloid research candy and will never be anything more without a better image or other evidence to support it.

If you disagree with the possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald, this is fine with me, and I will try to convince you with my research and arguments. If you disagree, then you (and others having doubts about Oswald hypothesis) have a problem as it is then your turn to suggest who Prayer Man was.

Like I have already said, as well as others and that is if Oswald would have been there with his car-pool riding buddy, then Frazier would have spoken up. There is nothing more to do until better evidence is discovered .... unless someone thinks a ouija board would help.    :ph34r:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

 

 

Bill,

Frazier was indeed shown Darnell's still and asked who Prayer Man was. Frazier saw this man during a dramatic period and gazed on this man who was less than 3 feet away from him. The man was a Depository employee because no one has said that there was anyone on top steps who would not be an employee. Who twas this man? Will you evade again?

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21 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill,

Frazier was indeed shown Darnell's still and asked who Prayer Man was. Frazier saw this man during a dramatic period and gazed on this man who was less than 3 feet away from him. The man was a Depository employee because no one has said that there was anyone on top steps who would not be an employee. Who twas this man? Will you evade again?

It is rather difficult to engage in any debate when the person(s) you're debating begin with the premise that documentation which does not support their argument has been altered. I don't believe for a second that those first day FBI affidavits have been changed. 'Oh what a tangled web we weave......', By the way, try approaching BWF again, this time begin with the question. "Buell, who is that woman standing beside you at your right?" See what response you get.

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1 hour ago, Claude Barnabe said:

It is rather difficult to engage in any debate when the person(s) you're debating begin with the premise that documentation which does not support their argument has been altered. I don't believe for a second that those first day FBI affidavits have been changed. 'Oh what a tangled web we weave......', By the way, try approaching BWF again, this time begin with the question. "Buell, who is that woman standing beside you at your right?" See what response you get.

Claude:

I would hate to be the reason for you not to be engaged in the debate. If you think the person next to Frazier was a woman, it is a legitimate view. Why would you not pursue it further and see where it will lead you. Any name of the woman, any picture, height estimate? Support by a testimony? All this would allow you and other researcher to test your hypothesis. Maybe it would work, maybe not, however, we would learn something in the process. It is obvious that the Prayer Man = Oswald possibility has not been proven in such a convincing way that every researcher would be able to accept it. However, it is useful to have a hypothesis and to try to prove or disprove it because in such a case the research at least follows some plan.

Again, I apologise for being maybe too rigorous in my comments on FBI witness testimonies you posted some days ago. You certainly pointed to the problem of many researchers disproving every single testimony as a lie aiding cover-up. On the other hand, there are just too many cases of the FBI interfering with solving the case. The possibility of Oswald being in the doorway had hounded the FBI already on Friday, November 22 (all those dances around Altgens6 and the FBI visit paid to Lovelady on the evening of assassination). Testimonies taken on Saturday would have to be in accord with the official lone-nut theory even if Oswald were Prayer Man. It was maybe better under these circumstances to testify as not having seen Oswald or even not knowing him at all. The witnesses giving their testimonies on Saturday were already biased by what has been reported, very consistently and vigorously, by low enforcement on Friday afternoon and Saturday. Not calling some witnesses to testify under the oath later would reduce their fear of committing perjury, this could be the deal.

What value has, for instance, the unsigned FBI testimony of Mrs. Sarah Stanton? No one ever spoke to her (to the best of my knowledge), she was never interviewed in the years following the assassination, we do not have any picture of her, and she was not called to testify for the Warren Commission. Would you discount the possibility that Mrs. Stanton saw Oswald in the doorway solely on account of her testimony for the FBI?  

 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill,

Frazier was indeed shown Darnell's still and asked who Prayer Man was. Frazier saw this man during a dramatic period and gazed on this man who was less than 3 feet away from him. The man was a Depository employee because no one has said that there was anyone on top steps who would not be an employee. Who twas this man? Will you evade again?

If Frazier saw Lee next to him, then I don't believe anything would make him forget that. Most everyone else who stood near their friends remembered who they were with. And if someone was showing Frazier that fuzzy faded crap image from Darnell's film that you have been pushing here, then it is little wonder that Frazier couldn't say who the guy was.

Edited by Bill Miller
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3 hours ago, Claude Barnabe said:

It is rather difficult to engage in any debate when the person(s) you're debating begin with the premise that documentation which does not support their argument has been altered. I don't believe for a second that those first day FBI affidavits have been changed. 'Oh what a tangled web we weave......', By the way, try approaching BWF again, this time begin with the question. "Buell, who is that woman standing beside you at your right?" See what response you get.

A.S. has designed a merry-go-round approach. A 'Who's on First' routine if you will. It goes something like this ...  Prayer Man was probably Oswald - If Frazier won't say this person was Lee, then Frazier must have been too traumatized to remember he and Lee standing together - And if Frazier cannot ID the degraded faded image in the Darnell film, then it must have been Lee Oswald. And the who premise relies on everyone who worked in and around the TSBD all knew one another, which is a crock in my view!

 

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Bill: speculative.

Speculative?  For goodness sake, Bill, all detective work and research starts with speculation.  I've watched numerous real crime shows on TV and when they interview the case officer or detective who worked the case. I almost always from their mouths, "I just *felt* something was not right.  I had a *hunch* that what we were seeing..." blah blah.

You make it sound like we're going around with hunches on our backs and you know what?  We are.  But you're no different.  Yes, you want to believe you're doing this in an oh-so-objective way, but you're not.

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34 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Bill: speculative.

Speculative?  For goodness sake, Bill, all detective work and research starts with speculation.  I've watched numerous real crime shows on TV and when they interview the case officer or detective who worked the case. I almost always from their mouths, "I just *felt* something was not right.  I had a *hunch* that what we were seeing..." blah blah.

You make it sound like we're going around with hunches on our backs and you know what?  We are.  But you're no different.  Yes, you want to believe you're doing this in an oh-so-objective way, but you're not.

Michael, that is not what I have said at all.

Any investigation begins with gathering what available evidence there is and then by formulating a probable scenario based on that evidence. So far there is the Darnell film of a image of someone up in the entrance near the glass which could be about anyone - including Oswald. Next comes the examination of the statements given by the witnesses known to have been on the stairs during that time. Several of them knew who Oswald was and what he looked like. Buell Frazier gave Oswald rides to and from work. Roy Truly knew Lee by sight. Within hours of the assassination - everyone would have known that an employee of the TSBD was a suspect in the shooting of a police officer. Anyone who had access to a television would have been made aware of what Oswald looked like. Lovelady - Frazier - Shelley were among those who went out to the front of the building to wait for the President to come by. These witnesses had little else to do but wait in anticipation for a parade that would soon be coming. They were even afforded an extra 10 minutes to stand around as the motorcade was running late  due to two unplanned stops along the way. When these witnesses were asked where they were and who they remembered being with them - they recalled each other. So the excitement didn't make them forget each other and I don't believe they would have forgotten fellow employee - Lee Oswald. But no one saw Oswald standing there with them. And there is a big difference in being asked if they remember whether or not Lee Oswald was there with them Vs was there any people around them that they didn't know. Frazier could know that Lee was not standing next to him atop of the landing while also not being aware of who's name belonged to a poorly washed out figure he was being shown 50 years after the fact. What I am saying is that without more evidence in the way of a photo or someone recalling Oswald standing there with them during and/or post shooting, the investigation has reached a dead end. The premise that if no one recalls Oswald being there with them and yet cannot say who the fuzzy person was in Darnell's film is somehow proof it must have been Lee, then that is not a finding based on reliable evidence in my view.

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Bill,

Suppose for argument's sake that it was Oswald standing in that corner, and was the one we call Prayer Man. Suppose further that most people on the stairs didn't pay much attention to who was standing there. And suppose that Wesley Frazier DID notice that it was Oswald standing there. And that he reported this to the DPD.

Do you believe that the DPD, FBI, and U.S. government officials would have allowed that information to go public? Or would they have at least tried to put a lid on it.

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4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Bill,

Suppose for argument's sake that it was Oswald standing in that corner, and was the one we call Prayer Man. Suppose further that most people on the stairs didn't pay much attention to who was standing there. And suppose that Wesley Frazier DID notice that it was Oswald standing there. And that he reported this to the DPD.

Do you believe that the DPD, FBI, and U.S. government officials would have allowed that information to go public? Or would they have at least tried to put a lid on it.

 

I believe that there were some things that those various institutions and officials could not do and they were well aware of it. For instance - there were far too many people to account for so to insure keeping a lid on certain information from getting out. They couldn't stop witnesses from saying they saw smoke drift out through the trees along the picket fence or that shots had been heard coming from there.  They couldn't stop folks from saying that they smelt burnt gunpowder down in the street any more than they could stop the assassination films from showing the strong gust of winds blowing Mary Moorman and Jean Hill's coats open in the direction of Elm and Houston street. (see below)

BL2.gif

Those same institutions could not possibly have known in the days - weeks - months - and years that a film or a clear photo wouldn't be brought forward to expose this large scale cover-up. I could go on and on with examples where this obviously wasn't done, so the answer is I do not believe Lovelady, Frazier, Shelley, and so on were prevented from saying they saw Lee on the front steps of the TSBD ... any more than someone saying they saw Lee in the lunchroom having his lunch at a time when people along the street were seeing men in the 6th floor windows.

 

Edited by Bill Miller
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9 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

A.S. has designed a merry-go-round approach. A 'Who's on First' routine if you will. It goes something like this ...  Prayer Man was probably Oswald - If Frazier won't say this person was Lee, then Frazier must have been too traumatized to remember he and Lee standing together - And if Frazier cannot ID the degraded faded image in the Darnell film, then it must have been Lee Oswald. And the who premise relies on everyone who worked in and around the TSBD all knew one another, which is a crock in my view!

 

Bill:

I can only work on a basis of a hypothesis. A hypothesis needs to be probable and testable. Prayer Man = Oswald is a probable hypothesis: 1) The figure of Prayer Man belongs to a Caucasian white person. 2) Prayer Man, in my view, is a male as he is dressed as a man. 3) The clothing appears to be a worker type of clothing: a long-sleeved shirt with sleeves rolled up to elbow joints, and loose slacks. 4) The man's height appears to be 5'9'' which is the aspect I pursue for months and am hopefully close to resolving it. 5) Prayer Man appears not to be a stranger coming from outside, he was a Depository employee. 7) There is also a point a characteristic Oswald's stance which Prayer Man appears to assume, and I am also working on this point too. 6) There are just no other candidates for Prayer Man fulfilling points 1-5 except Lee Harvey Oswald. 7) Oswald testified, according to Fritz-Bookhout notes, that he has been out to see what all the commotion was about, and he was there with Shelley and Lovelady. How could he knew these people stood in the doorway if he were not there with them. Shelley and Lovelady left the doorway almost immediately after the last shot; Oswald could not see them standing there had he arrived only later. Fritz-Bookhout notes are consistent with Oswald being Prayer Man in Darnell's still. 

These points are sufficient for me to pursue the hypothesis of Prayer Man being Oswald further as a probable scenario. Is it testable? The body height of Prayer Man is a substantial point and it is a testable prediction. Prayer Man stance resembling Oswald's stance is another good circumstantial evidence, and it is tightly linked to the body height problem. The doorway is a 3D space in which perspective, camera view angle and the focal length all play important roles in making an impression about the heights of doorway occupants. It is impossible to correctly estimate the height of a person by only looking on a 2D picture. This is the reason for spending many months (almost two years now) on reconstructing the doorway, all occupants in the doorway, spending funds and time for purchasing and learning complex modelling programs. Does this make me biased towards Prayer Man = Oswald hypothesis? I do not think so. 

Naturally, high quality copies of Darnell and Wiegman films would be the most important step forwards. I hope that research along the line Prayer Man=Oswald may create more pressure towards releasing the films for public view than doing nothing or ridiculing the Prayer Man problem. 

My research is hypothesis driven as I cannot work in a different way, I am spoiled by my profession. However, this also means that I would never suppress any findings if they would refute Prayer Man = Oswald hypothesis.  At one point I will come to the point that I cannot do anything more than I did (the height issue would be resolved, all scenes modelled to a photographic quality and animated, arrival of Prayer Man to the doorway explained). I would  show my reconstructed and rendered doorways to Buell from his view, and hope that the image would refresh his autobiographic memories as much as an old childhood photograph brings vivid memories about a particular day in our lives, or a smell of Christmas tree reminds us of Christmas.  

What will you do to resolve the Prayer Man problem?

 

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

What will you do to resolve the Prayer Man problem?

I will only wish you luck as without a better photo of Oswald being outdoors - in work clothes - its just a flip of a coin. Somewhere there should be a description by Frazier or Truly as to how Oswald was dressed while at work on 11/22/63. Frazier drove Lee to work and Truly saw him in the lunchroom. What have you discovered about this?

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2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I will only wish you luck as without a better photo of Oswald being outdoors - in work clothes - its just a flip of a coin. Somewhere there should be a description by Frazier or Truly as to how Oswald was dressed while at work on 11/22/63. Frazier drove Lee to work and Truly saw him in the lunchroom. What have you discovered about this?

Bill:

Marina's testimony appears to be relevant as to her husband's work clothes. Oswald had two similar work slacks, and Marina pointed to CE157 as the slacks he wore on Friday, November 22: 

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0271b.htm

As far as his work shirt is concerned, it would be most likely the one in CE151:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0270a.htm

The combination CE157+CE151 is very likely what Oswald wore on Friday morning. The shirt and the pants appear to be of similar colour on a black-and-white photograph, which is what we see in Darnell's stills. Further, the loose pants CE157 would be exactly what I would expect that Prayer Man had on himself. These slacks do not give a firm contour of the legs which makes it so difficult to draw the contour along the left leg in Darnell's stills.

The reports of different witnesses are not too consistent as to what Oswald wore on the day of assassination. It is sometimes difficult to figure out from some testimonies what Oswald wore, e.g. from the testimonies of the taxi driver Whaley and Mary Bledsoe:

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed? 
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

And Mary Bledsoe's testimony:

Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on? 
Mrs. BL EDSOE - He had a brown shirt. 
Mr. BALL - And unraveled? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating]. 
Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is. 
Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right. 
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off. 
Mr. BALL - What did he have on underneath that? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't know. 
Mr. BALL - Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No. 
Mr. BALL - Notice the color of his pants? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here [indicating]. 
Mr. BALL - Around where? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - At the seam. 
Mr. BALL - At the waist? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - At the waist, uh-huh. 
Mr. BALL - Was the shirt tucked beneath the belt in his pants, or outside the belt? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No; he had it in. 
Mr. BALL - Had it tucked in? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No: it was tucked in. 
Mr. BALL - So, that the belt of the pants was outside the shirt? 
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; uh-huh. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Now we need a better or another photo?

Like Wiegman AND Darnell are just not enough.

Prayer Man's shirt just isn't clear enough to examine the tag and see if its 100 percent cotton...

Thanks Bill, if we need your help, say to use that coin for the upcoming super bowl toss, we'll let you know.

When it comes to securing a better frame, again hold your quarter, we got it covered as serious researchers.

Still waiting that Sasquatch documentation, (pictures?) you said you would have by now.
And while you've been a squatchin we found Lee, documented his alibi, and how that was used against him.  
Please try and catch up. Perhaps by reading Prayer Man: Out Of the Shadows and Into the Light by Stan Dane.
Then you'll be speaking from an informed opinion and we won't have to answer already answered questions like you ask about Lee's attire.

Cheers, Ed

PS I hear Bill Kelly has an unused copy of the PM book and he has no idea where Lee was during the shooting either. (See a pattern?)

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