Ian Lloyd Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 13 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said: A woman has been identified on the steps, wearing dark clothing, standing in front of the Prayerman figure, which makes his body appear to be wider than it is. Her head comes up right under His arms. Her leg can be seen on the steps below Prayerman. I believe that quite a few years ago Robin Unger identified that there was a woman standing in front of Prayer Man on the lower steps - as you say, if you look closely enough, you can see the bottom half of her legs . The overall effect is to make Prayer Man appear to be much 'bulkier' than he might be (that's not to say he wasn't bulky; obviously, we can't tell when there's a woman in front blocking the view). Not sure if it was Robin who first identified that there was a woman there but he was the first I was aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Ian Lloyd said: I believe that quite a few years ago Robin Unger identified that there was a woman standing in front of Prayer Man on the lower steps - as you say, if you look closely enough, you can see the bottom half of her legs . The overall effect is to make Prayer Man appear to be much 'bulkier' than he might be (that's not to say he wasn't bulky; obviously, we can't tell when there's a woman in front blocking the view). Not sure if it was Robin who first identified that there was a woman there but he was the first I was aware of. Andrew and Ian: would it be possible to draw a contour around the alleged woman's body? The shape on the step indeed makes an impression of a human leg. However, where is a leg there is also a trunk, and where is a trunk there is also a neck and head. I just struggle to identify the contours of this alleged woman. I would therefore appreciate demonstrating to the community the contour of the alleged woman since maybe I am not the only one who fails to see the head under Prayer Man's arms. Would not this women be some kind of a giant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said: A woman has been identified on the steps, wearing dark clothing, standing in front of the Prayerman figure, which makes his body appear to be wider than it is. Her head comes up right under His arms. Her leg can be seen on the steps below Prayerman. I believe what you say is right, Andrew. The top of the dark scarf this woman is wearing may be blocking a little bit of the bottom of PM's right wrist and hand. Edited February 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 32 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: Andrew and Ian: would it be possible to draw a contour around the alleged woman's body? The shape on the step indeed makes an impression of a human leg. However, where is a leg there is also a trunk, and where is a trunk there is also a neck and head. I just struggle to identify the contours of this alleged woman. I would therefore appreciate demonstrating to the community the contour of the alleged woman since maybe I am not the only one who fails to see the head under Prayer Man's arms. Would not this women be some kind of a giant? Hi Andrej, Unfortunately, I don't have the software or capabilities to do that!!! I'm quite sure that Robin and/or others have already done it in the past - maybe an internet search might bring something up or, hopefully, Robin will visit and see this and provide more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) What about a different type of exercise: the alleged woman stood on the fourth step (counting the top landing as the first step), and her leg was about 2 feet apart from the central railing. That part of the doorway was lit by sunlight, and any shadow there was cast by people on lower steps. However, their shadows would not cover the upper part of the woman's body because she stood on a higher step than them. Therefore, we should see the lady illuminated pretty nicely at her left shoulder, and we should also see her head as a plastic 3D object, similar to other people in the doorway. If there were a human figure where the alleged woman stood (would somebody advocating this please draw a contour around her body), a shadow cast by her body would be seen on the rightmost part of Mrs. Reese's figure, however, it does not seem to be there. Edited February 9, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, Ron Ecker said: I haven't read this whole thread, and what I have to say has perhaps already been covered, debunked, or whatever. Anyway this is my two cents. What I see is a person wearing a dress, that is, a woman. The shoulders above the arm and the rest of the body below the arm look to be clothed in the same garment, a dress, with a rather wide midriff. While the head looks like it could be Oswald's, the girth of this person as seen below the arm is out of proportion with Oswald. Hi Ron! Your observation and others (right or wrong) certainly draws attention to how poor the image is for those wanting to know if it is Oswald or not. I do think however that this individual is too broad to be Lee. In this image he or she appears to be turned at a slight angle away from the camera which doesn't offer the total girth of this person. But even if we take the visible girth as it is and compare it to people who are far closer to the camera ... one can get a feel if the slim Lee Oswald should be as wide as this person labeled Prayer-Man seems to be. I have taken several lines of equal width and have placed them on other people. I would suggest that anyone truly interested in knowing if this person could be Lee Oswald ... that they have someone skilled in Photogammetry determine the girth of this person. Of course that obligation should lay with those going to all the trouble to have it be Lee. It just seems wrong to me that Prayer-Man when seen at a angle away from the camera should still be as wide as the man on the other side of Frazier who is seen from a straight on view. Edited February 9, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) Bill: I am afraid that your lines are completely wrong. You are comparing the man on the pavement with Prayer Man (and two ladies). The man had a suit which makes his shoulders to look wider. Prayer Man is orientated differently than the man on the pavement. It is a 3D problem, and it also includes the factor of perspective (more distant objects looking smaller than close objects of the same size). It is difficult to determine the width of Prayer Man's shoulders in this picture. Edited February 9, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: Bill: I am afraid that your lines are completely wrong. You are comparing the man on the pavement with Prayer Man (and one lady). I can see that the line on the man in the front does not really span from the tip of one shoulder to another. The man had a suit which makes his shoulders to look wider. Prayer Man is orientated differently than the man on the pavement. It is a 3D problem, and it also includes the factor of perspective (more distant objects looking smaller than close objects of the same size). It is difficult to determine the width of Prayer Man's shoulders on this picture. That was the whole purpose of this exercise. People closer to the camera should not have the same length line be so close to reaching from side to side on their person. Even if Prayer-Man was facing the camera, then he would be wider in the camera's eye than he or she is when turned at an angle away from the camera. Yet people are are closer to the camera have the same line on their person as Prayer-Man does and yet he being turned at an angle is still as wide as people who are closer to the camera. Of course this is not perfect, nor was it claimed to be. What it does however is point out some obvious flaws in Prayer-Man being Lee Oswald and is exactly why I recommended a personal skilled in Photogammetry examine this person to get a more precise measurement of this person's girth. In case you did not notice - the line across Prayer-Man is not running from shoulder to shoulder and is why I placed the same line on the other people in similar fashion with the exception of the man on the other side of Frazier - that man turned directly towards the camera has his line across the shoulders. Again, it is not my responsibility to be sure the claim that Prayer-Man may be Oswald - that obligation lies with those making the claim they could be one in the same person. I said that this matter should be looked at my someone skilled in Photogammetry so to insure the highest level of accuracy possible. If accuracy is not important, then disregard my recommendation. Edited February 9, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Bill: would you know about an example of a photogammetry analysis in the area of JFK assassination? I am not familiar with the method but I assume that at least two (the more the better) photographs of the same object taken from different view angles are necessary to reconstruct a 3D object. In Prayer Man case we only have one angle and cannot see the entire body. Is photogammetry actually feasible in this case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Bill Miller said: Edited 1 hour ago by Bill A fairly comparable comparison with Prayer Man (in terms of perspective) is the guy standing to our right of Frazier, wearing light colored clothing. On him Bill's white line just extends to the corners of his shoulders. Not so on PM. The left end of the line (our left) reaches out the the PM's elbow. And PM's elbow is extended away from his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: Andrew and Ian: would it be possible to draw a contour around the alleged woman's body? The shape on the step indeed makes an impression of a human leg. However, where is a leg there is also a trunk, and where is a trunk there is also a neck and head. I just struggle to identify the contours of this alleged woman. I would therefore appreciate demonstrating to the community the contour of the alleged woman since maybe I am not the only one who fails to see the head under Prayer Man's arms. Would not this women be some kind of a giant? I could probably have a go at drawing a contour around the alleged woman's body, but really it would just be a total guess.. I can just about convince myself in seeing a head under Prayer Man's arms, but it still doesn't make sense to me because I can't convince myself why that part of her would be in 'darkness' - the person on the left hand side (as we look at it) nearest the wall whose head is well illuminated is either standing on the same step or one above and the woman to the right (as we look at it) standing nearest the hand rail is standing two (?) steps up and she is well illuminated also. Surely then the body that belongs to the 'foot' should also be illuminated more than it appears she is... ... that's on the assumption she is standing up and not either bending over or leaning over at a extreme angle. *To be honest, I don't really like that individual image... I need to test something first before I say why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said: A fairly comparable comparison with Prayer Man (in terms of perspective) is the guy standing to our right of Frazier, wearing light colored clothing. On him Bill's white line just extends to the corners of his shoulders. Not so on PM. The left end of the line (our left) reaches out the the PM's elbow. And PM's elbow is extended away from his body. The white line on Prayer-Man was meant to be placed on the outer edge of the right arm to the outer edge of the left arm. Prayer-Man is not square with the camera, thus he or she is even wider than seen in this image. The image is so poor that some cannot even tell if Prayer-Man is a man or a woman, so to say that someone can tell that his or her elbow is extended away from the body is merely a self-serving wild guess in my view.. Edited February 9, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, Bill Miller said: The image is so poor that some cannot even tell if Prayer-Man is a man or a woman, so to say that someone can tell that his or her elbow is extended away from the body is merely a self-serving wild guess in my view.. Raise your arms up the way PM's clearly are and see if your elbows remain up close to your body. (Do so naturally without trying to force your elbows to remain close to your body.) Now tell me whose claim was the self-serving one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Miller Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said: Raise your arms up the way PM's clearly are and see if your elbows remain up close to your body. (Do so naturally without trying to force your elbows to remain close to your body.) Now tell me whose claim was the self-serving one. I did and they do. My arms stayed right against my body. None of which is meaningful. What is meaningful is the way Prayer-Man is turned slightly to one side. Do you agree that if he turned so to be square on with the camera, then would not his girth widen even more? And by the way - isn't the man next to Frazier supposed to be Molina?? Edited February 9, 2017 by Bill Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Lloyd Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Thought I'd give it a try from Snipping tool (about the extent of my capabilities!!!)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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