PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Personally I'm not sure if it's a good idea to start with an initial assumption such as Prayer Man was Oswald and it's certainly not about proving that Prayer Man was just anybody! Of course, there does have to be a starting point from which to 'narrow the field'. My starting point has always been that Prayer Man, because of their position, has to have been someone from the TSBD building. To narrow that field down further I would thus make the assumption that it either has to be one of the people who stated they were standing on the steps or A. N. Other (and that with all things considered would be Oswald)..

I appreciate what you are saying there Andrej.

With regards to the things that point towards it being Oswald, I have read this thread and the other PM thread and some of the things don't quite add up imo and maybe aren't actually useful things to use to point to it being Oswald...

... for example, what was PM holding? Perhaps not holding anything? Some have pushed the idea that it was a camera, but I haven't seen evidence to back that up. Some have pushed the idea that it was a 'coke' bottle - and as evidence of that they mention the 'coke' bottle and lunch bag still visible on the steps later on. Where is the link though? How do they know it belonged to PM? It could have belonged to someone else - for example: Lovelady testified to being on the steps for a period of approx. 30 minutes before the shots, during which time he ate his lunch and drank a bottle of 'coke'. His position on the stairs was closer to the location of the lunch bag and bottle caught in photos and although he doesn't mention leaving it, he also doesn't mention taking it with him - a very good inference can be drawn then that the lunch bag and bottle caught in the photos were actually Lovelady's...

... as much as it may look like PM is holding something in their hand there remains the possibility that they are holding nothing. The image just isn't clear enough to make a definite call on it.

For those trying to test that PM = Oswald, the 'burden of proof' is on them to prove it is Oswald, and in doing so they have a starting point that is the same as what I have mentioned above - that PM is either someone who said they were on the steps at the time or Oswald. It appears that some of those trying to 'test' that PM = Oswald have ruled it out as being a woman because it looks like a man.

As much as I can agree that from looking at it it does look like a man, that alone doesn't rule it out as a woman!

One of the ones that said they were standing on the steps at the time!

First, what testimonies support it being Oswald? None. Not one person mentioned Oswald being there! Could Oswald have been there unseen? Could he have 'sneaked' in to that position and not be noticed by anyone? How could he have done that? Consider the positions of the other people and consider how the door opens; the likliehood is that no one could have 'sneaked' in to that position unseen. What's left then? That he was seen and the people just didn't mention it? Wouldn't mention it? Couldn't mention it? For whatever reason... OR the reason no one mentioned Oswald being there is because he wasn't. What other testimony supports Oswald being there? Not Fritz, or Bookhout, or Holmes - ah, but they were making things up, right!

Anyway, all the testimony of all of those who were standing on the steps is very easily available and can be cross-referenced with each other to get an idea of who was where and with whom etc. The photographic evidence starts to rule certain people out straight away. Process of elimination shows who is left over, and they need to be somewhere don't they. Looking at who they each said they were standing with or near can further help pinpointing the locations of each. I've done it it all and narrowed it down and let me put it this way, if one of them has just mistaken 'left' for 'right' then that could go a long way... 'proving' it, well selling the idea to the 'masses' is a whole different matter.

How tall Prayer Man is, what their body height is, what their size is, what they are holding or not holding is all relatively moot because of the 'quality' of the image. If a better quality image ever surfaced all of those things would still be relatively moot as the better quality image would no doubt show whether it was Oswald or not - and of course, it doesn't really matter who it actually was if it wasn't Oswald, because if it was shown not to be Oswald then it is not Oswald...

Whilst we may know how tall Oswald was, we don't know exactly where PM stood, or indeed how PM stood, so not sure why those things would be an issue if testing it as not Oswald.

Setting all of that aside...

... find out all those that said they were on the steps, and consider them all, don't rule out the women. Look at where each of them said they were and who else they saw or who they were with. Use all of that to get an idea of where everyone was, cross check that with the different photos (Altgens 6, Weigman frame, Darnell frame) and see whether they moved or not. Start to identify each and every one from the photos and rule them out... see who is left over and then try and see where they could possibly be in the photos.If they can be unequivocally be placed in other positions then they can't be in the PM position, but if one of them can't be unequivocally placed elsewhere, then where must they be by definition...

Alistair:

"Whilst we may know how tall Oswald was, we don't know exactly where PM stood, or indeed how PM stood, so not sure why those things would be an issue if testing it as not Oswald. "

The point of Prayer Man's body height is actually testable. The body height estimate goes hand in hand with Prayer Man's exact location. Prayer Man's  body height is a crucial point which practically makes the alternative hypothesis (Prayer man was a women) hard to defend. Sarah Stanton was "heavy-set and stocky", surely not 5'9''. Pauline Saunders stood in the east part of the top landing, far from Prayer Man's location. What other woman could be a candidate? There are not that many...

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Bill, for your explanation. The software packages mentioned at Wikipedia from which you seem to quote look very complicated and actually require multiple photographs.

"Photogrammetric analysis may be applied to  one photograph"

I have been on  forums where it was applied to a single film frame .... and the same when National Geographic did a similar examination.

From my understanding - it is 3D model creations that require multiple views.

 

Quote

They also say in the same

Are you sure that photagammetry would work with this low-resolution picture in which it is difficult to recognise details of the body? 

Hasn't seemed to stop supporters of Oswald being Prayer-Man when looking at the same image. But yes, I believe when it comes to girth that a measurement can be obtained within a small degree of error.   I will however suggest that these questions be given to someone who is actually skilled in Photogammetry.  

 

Quote

It would be your big contribution to the Prayer Man topic if you could employ photogammetry to Prayer Man's figure. As you know, I work on 3D reconstructions using different approach and cannot embark on another project. We can then compare our findings obtained using photogammetry and 3D modelling.  Maybe you would you be able to contact the person familiar with photogammetry to ask about his/her view about the possibility to reconstruct Prayer Man from Darnell's still. In my experience, one cannot get more information from an analysis than that which the input data potentially contains. If we do not see e.g. the Prayer Man's left shoulder, how can we reconstruct his chest as a volume. However, I may be wrong and it may be all possible to do...

I could ask, but someone needs to get the measurements needed to do the job. Width of the doors - the extension - the stairs - the vertical step surfaces - the height of the doorway and so forth. Dale Myers may already have those figures. I can only say you should seek the answers to this person's girth before doing other work on the matter so not to waste more time that you may already have.

My schedule is not free to for me to do the work to run down measurements. The 6th floor Museum may have the figures for the building.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Alistair Briggs]

14 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The point of Prayer Man's body height is actually testable. The body height estimate goes hand in hand with Prayer Man's exact location. Prayer Man's  body height is a crucial point which practically makes the alternative hypothesis (Prayer man was a women) hard to defend. Sarah Stanton was "heavy-set and stocky", surely not 5'9''. Pauline Saunders stood in the east part of the top landing, far from Prayer Man's location. What other woman could be a candidate? There are not that many...

Prayer Man's height is only really testable if one knows exactly where he stood and how he stood.

Sarah Stanton was 'heavy-set and stocky'... are people not debating earlier the 'girth' of PM.

Pauline Sanders stood in the east part of the top landing... what if she mistook 'east' for 'west.

As I said, look at the testimony of all the people on the stairs and see where they put themselves and who they said they were near; have a look at the photographic evidence and see who is actually where and who is actually standing near each other and who is not, cross check it all and see if anything 'pops out' as being of interest.

[Andrej Stancak]

26 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Prayer Man's height is only really testable if one knows exactly where he stood and how he stood.

Sarah Stanton was 'heavy-set and stocky'... are people not debating earlier the 'girth' of PM.

Pauline Sanders stood in the east part of the top landing... what if she mistook 'east' for 'west.

As I said, look at the testimony of all the people on the stairs and see where they put themselves and who they said they were near; have a look at the photographic evidence and see who is actually where and who is actually standing near each other and who is not, cross check it all and see if anything 'pops out' as being of interest.

Alistair:

not only myself but many other researchers did a detailed analysis of who was standing where in the doorway. This is all contained in the original Prayer Man thread. I did not get from your last message that you actually recommended to me personally, perhaps thinking that I do not know, to read the testimonies and look on photographic evidence. I can assure you that I have a pretty good idea who was where, and do not need to go over the whole stuff again and again. I understand that you are new to Prayer Man problem and would like to rehearse for yourself. If you go to Bart's Prayerman webpage http://www.prayer-man.com/, you can get the testimonies with a brief description of locations of all witnesses in the doorway with one click.

As per where Prayer Man stood, you can check my earlier analysis: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/  . This article tests only two options (Prayer Man 5'2'' on the top landing and Prayer Man 5'9'' standing in the very front of the top landing with one leg on the step below) and using a low-resolution manikin whose pose could not be adjusted too well, However, the article lists all the useful markers which define Prayer Man's height and location. I work on a more advanced version using a much better manikin which I have elaborated in Poser 11. The new manikin allows the arms, head position and similar to be modelled very accurately.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

14 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

not only myself but many other researchers did a detailed analysis of who was standing where in the doorway. This is all contained in the original Prayer Man thread.

I have read the original Prayer Man thread a few times in its entirety.

14 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 I did not get from your last message that you actually recommended to me personally, perhaps thinking that I do not know, to read the testimonies and look on photographic evidence.

Didn't mean you personally I meant it that any 'watchers' should go and do their own digging and not just take 'our' word on it.

15 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

 I understand that you are new to Prayer Man problem and would like to rehearse for yourself.

Relatively yes...

16 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

If you go to Bart's Prayerman webpage http://www.prayer-man.com/, you can get the testimonies with a brief description of locations of all witnesses in the doorway with one click.

I have spent much time on Bart's Prayerman site and I have on numerous occassions said that I like it very much.

*Of course one can go to the source testimony for themselves and see it there for themselves and work it out for themselves

All relatively beside the point though...

... in the 'photographic' evidence where is Sanders and Stanton? If they are to be ruled out then it must be shown where they are.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

"... in the 'photographic' evidence where is Sanders and Stanton? If they are to be ruled out then it must be shown where they are."

Alistair:

I am afraid you may wait for very long time for this ...

 

[Ron Ecker]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I can assure you that I have a pretty good idea who was where, and do not need to go over the whole stuff again and again

You sound like the person to ask since you've done the research. I'm wondering about the possibility that someone on those steps could have said that Oswald was there, but that any such reference was deleted from their testimony. That would be easy to do if "testimony" refers to FBI statements, since we know that the FBI liked to play around with statements and evidence. It's more complicated if "testimony" refers to statements before the Warren Commission. In the latter case anyone who had said Oswald was there would have been told or pressured to lie to the commission. Would you comment on the possibility of any statements being suppressed regarding Oswald's presence on the steps?

 

[Alistair Briggs]

22 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I am afraid you may wait for very long time for this ...

 

How come?

[Andrej Stancak]

Alistair:

53 years already passed and somehow no one saw them...

[Alistair Briggs]

56 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

53 years already passed and somehow no one saw them...

Or maybe they have.

Maybe just maybe at least one of them has been 'hidden' in plain view all these years... maybe.

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

You sound like the person to ask since you've done the research. I'm wondering about the possibility that someone on those steps could have said that Oswald was there, but that any such reference was deleted from their testimony. That would be easy to do if "testimony" refers to FBI statements, since we know that the FBI liked to play around with statements and evidence. It's more complicated if "testimony" refers to statements before the Warren Commission. In the latter case anyone who had said Oswald was there would have been told or pressured to lie to the commission. Would you comment on the possibility of any statements being suppressed regarding Oswald's presence on the steps?

 

Ron:

this is a very valid question, and my view on this is only a layman's guess. You certainly know much more than I know about witness testimonies and the Warren Commission. Your question aims to the point that if Prayer Man was Oswald and stood there in plain sight then how comes that no one was willing to convey this information to the FBI/WC. Here is what I think, and I realise that my thoughts may not satisfy you or anyone doubting Oswald standing there close to the western wall:

1. In my analysis, Oswald came to the doorway from behind the glass door at a moment allowing to be captured during Wiegman's film and during the following Darnell's film. My estimate would be that this would be an interval from about 30-45 seconds as the shortest time and 120 seconds as the longest time. This longest possible interval is based on an early report by Occhus Campbell who remembered to see Oswald in the small storage room in the vestibule about 2 minutes after the last shot. This is a short time interval given that people were in the state of shock and still watched the events enfolding in front of them.

2. During this short time interval, some of the doorway occupants, e.g. Carl Jones, did not look back to check who is behind him, they rather focused on the dramatic events evolving in front of them. The same holds for people standing in the immediate vicinity of the doorway. Even if they would briefly look back, such glimpse would not make a memory trace. 

3.  The FBI was actually very concerned about Oswald being in the doorway during the shooting. They visited Lovelady on Friday evening with a large blow-up of Altgens6 and were allegedly very relieved when Lovelady confirmed that it was indeed him. Thus, it actually could be someone advising the FBI that Oswald was in the doorway.

4. The people standing on the top platform and on the first step below saw Prayer Man and knew who he was. This would be Lovelady, Shelley, Frazier, Stanton, Saunders, and maybe Molina. Those who left while Prayer Man stood at his spot may or may not see him (e.g., Otis Williams). For instance, Frazier was less than three feet away from Prayer Man and Prayer Man was in his field of vision.

4. Of these, Stanton and Saunders only gave an FBI affidavit, as brief as possible, and were not called to testify under oath. Frazier had a hard time during Friday evening and night with the Dallas Police.

5. I think that some kind of deal was made between Frazier on one side and the DPD and FBI on the other side in which he would not be prosecuted for helping the accused assassin and in return Frazier would never confer the truth about things like curtain rods or Oswald's whereabouts during the shooting. In Darnell's still, Frazier and Prayer Man are frozen, practically not moving at all. Frazier later said that he had seen police officers with guns and allegedly told himself not to move and stay where he was. I think he, as Lee Harvey Oswald, was pondering what had happened and what to do next. I think it was all around the rifle as this was an obvious framing tool which both Oswald and Frazier understood immediately.

Lovelady was visited by the FBI on the night of assassination and he had an earlier criminal record. Could his history be the reason for taking him to the Dallas Police headquarters early afternoon? How can a man standing in the doorway (Lovelady) be deemed suspicious? Maybe he was brought to the headquarters to explain him about his testimony.

Shelley did not admit to see Oswald after about 11.50 on that Friday, except later at the police station. This was his testimony for the Warren Commission. ?

Molina had a hard time with the FBI for his alleged communist ties, there was some strong lever against him.  

5. For all witnesses, if they decided to say that they had not seen Oswald, they would be in peace. This is what they opted for. Shelley, Saunders and Stanton fall into this category. The alternative was to start saying that they actually saw the accused assassin in the doorway, that assassin who was seen by an eyewitness in the sixth floor window, whose rifle was used to kill the President, who was a communist, who also killed Officer Tippit, and about whom Captain Fritz told the whole country that they had the perpetrator on both counts. Such witness would be explained that he/she was wrong and that this did not happen, and that they would get into trouble if they continue saying such things. It would be one person against the whole machinery and objective "evidence". Who would come forward? 

There is a story of one Velma (80) who called a radio program in 2006. After 43 years and by preserving her anonymity, Velma told interesting things happening in the parking lot behind the Depository. She explained that she had a family and had feared of her and her family lives, and therefore she never came forward with her testimony. This is how serious it was. I posted the case of Mr. Wynne Johnson few days ago. He and his girlfriend, both 15 years old then, allegedly met Oswald, Bishop and Veciana in Southland Center in September 1963. Wynne was immediately explained by Vicki's mother to forget the thing forever else "they" would kill Vicky. And Wynne kept his silence for almost 50 years.

  6. Let us now forget the doorway for a moment as no one witnessed Oswald to stand there.  Well, how comes that no one had seen him anywhere else after the shooting? No one had seen him leaving the building. There were people both in the doorway and in the vestibule, someone surely would see him leaving. If he was not in the doorway, he was on the first floor, and he was there also when e.g. Officer Baker and Superintendant Truly came in. Or, Otis Williams and few other people (according to Geneva Hine) came to the second floor just 2-3 minutes after the last shot. They had to go through the first floor vestibule and use the stairs in the front part of the building leading to the second floor, and this is when they could meet Lee Harvey Oswald. If not these people, then maybe Eddie Piper or Jack Dogherty who in the meantime came down to the first floor using the elevator.

My point is that there is a complete blindness as to sighting Lee Harvey Oswald during or after the shooting. We only have the impossible second floor encounter between Officer Baker and Lee Harvey Oswald. From a witness perspective, the situation would be very similar in claiming to have seen Oswald in the doorway or witnessing an encounter between Oswald and Baker in the first floor. No one dared.

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Alistair Briggs]

http://22november1963.org.uk/prayer-man-jfk-assassination

A decent overview of the whole 'Prayer Man' thing.

[Ron Ecker]

21 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

http://22november1963.org.uk/prayer-man-jfk-assassination

A decent overview of the whole 'Prayer Man' thing.

Thanks. Very informative.

From the link:

"If the Prayer Man figure was a woman who worked in the TSBD, the only plausible candidates are Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton, both of whom were standing on or near the top step, though probably at the opposite end from Prayer Man."

Why "at the opposite end from Prayer Man"? Lovelady said "I was standing on the top step to the far right against the wall," and Shelley and Sarah Stanton "were standing next to me." That puts Sarah Stanton on the right side of the steps (the right side looking out from the steps, which I assume is what Lovelady meant).

And Frazier saw Sarah Stanton with Shelley and Lovelady, and described her as "a heavy-set lady." (Back to the question of girth.)

The link says that Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton were standing "in the right general area" but their "clothes and hair were probably unlike Prayer Man's." How do we know that about their clothes and hair?

Has heavy-set Sarah Stanton been reasonably identified in the photos of the people on the steps? Or could Sarah Stanton be Prayer Woman?

 

[Alistair Briggs]

2 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Why "at the opposite end from Prayer Man"?

Good question Ron,

It basically comes down to this part that Sanders said:

Quote

To the best of my recollection I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance.

The 'east end' is the opposite end from Prayer Man... and that is pretty much all that is used to rule her and Stanton out.

As you mention though from what the other people on the steps said about who they were near the inference is that both Stanton and Sanders were on the 'west' side of the entrance (the right side looking out from the steps, the left hand side as we look at the photos), and the info from the link does conceed that would put them 'in the right general area'.

18 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

The link says that Pauline Sanders and Sarah Stanton were standing "in the right general area" but their "clothes and hair were probably unlike Prayer Man's." How do we know that about their clothes and hair?

I don't think we do know about their clothes. Having said that from looking at many of the other photos how many of the females are wearing jackets or dresses and how many are wearing hats or headscarfs.

Of course it has to be noted that, as mentioned on the link;

Quote

the only copies of the Wiegman and Darnell films in public circulation are of relatively poor quality.

 

33 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Has heavy-set Sarah Stanton been reasonably identified in the photos of the people on the steps?

To the best of my knowledge no, neither Stanton nor Sanders have ever been reasonably identified in the photos of the people on the steps.

I will try and knock up a post about who has been reasonably identified in the photos of the people on the steps.

Regards

[Alistair Briggs]

2 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

 

Ron, I just put that 'quote' from you above here, so that you would get a notification about this post, in case it passes you by. Regards.

 

Here is an image I found on Google of the Altgens 6 (top) and Weigman frame (bottom) on which someone else has put the letters A to G on to  match up those people. One has to consider the difference in perspective of where each image was taken (they were both taken at relatively at the same time).

(NB: the C in the Altgens 6 should probably be placed more to the right hand side as we look at it and more to 'beneath' the A).

A = Molina
B = Williams
C = Dean
D = Reese
E = Shelley
F = Lovelady
G = Jones
(NB: Frazier is not seen in these images because he is too much in the 'shade')

As we move on let us say that;
H = Frazier
I = Davis
J = McCully

At this junction here is the Couch/Darnell sync from which the 'Darnell frame' comes from. It is approx 30 seconds after the time of the 'Altgens6/Weigman frame' picture.

Couple of things to look out for there. First the two people walking away are claimed to be Shelley and Lovelady (*although there is some doubt about that) and secondly the man that arrives at the 'traffic light pole' is Jones.

Here is a quick image I knocked up of the Darnell frame on which I have put the letters on to match the people from the 'Altgens 6/Weigman frame' picture.

A (Molina), B (Williams), C (Dean) and D (Reese) haven't really moved that much in the previous 30 seconds. As mentioned above* E (Shelley) and F (Lovelady) have moved away from the steps and G (Jones) has made his way across to the 'traffic lights pole'. H (Frazier) has now 'come out of the shadows'.

Based on the location that Davis said she stood (on the lower steps) with McCully, and McCully said she was with Davis, I have I as Davis and J as McCully (but it might be the other way round to be honest).

*In the Darnell frame you can see 3 people in the position that Jones had been 30 seconds previously. None of them were in that position at the time of the shots, and from looking at the following gif an argument can be made that both 'all black' and 'all white' people are returning to the building (ie had been outwith that vicinity at the time of the shots. As for 'white head' person (Who appears to be facing down and talking to 'all black person), I don't know who it is or where they came from to be honest - (some people have made the claim that it is Lovelady and he hadn't left the steps by that time, but that could be a moot point in terms of this discussion anyway.)

 

It has to be stated that the 'Prayer Man' figure is viewable in both the Wiegman frame and the Darnell clip.

From looking at the photographic evidence of Altgens 6, Wiegman Frame and Darnell Frame, and cross referencing it with the 'testimony' of those who said they were on the steps at the time  it's reasonable to say that 10 of them have been identified; Molina, Williams, Dean, Reese, Shelley, Lovelady, Jones, Frazier, Davis and McCully.

Who is left over? Stanton and Sanders

If we look at what each of them said as to where they stood;

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

*Point of contention: Sanders said she was on the top step at the 'East' entrance!

*A point of interest; Molina: says he stood at the railings on the 'east side' of the building but does not recall who stood beside him but does know that Sanders viewed the motorcade.

As we look at the photographic evidence of the steps, the 'east side' is the right hand side as we look at it, and the 'west side' is the left hand side as we look at it.

Molina was certainly correct about being on the 'east side' as that is backed up by the photographic evidence, Sanders can't be beside him because he mentions her after saying that he does not recall who stood beside him! From the photographic evidence the two people that stood 'beside' him look to be Williams (up left as we look at it) and either Davis or McCully (down right as we look a it). So when Sanders said she was at the 'east' entrance that is not backed up by the photographic evidence...

... what if then, when Sanders said 'east' she actually meant the opposite side from where Molina is. How could she make such an error? Look at a compass, which side is East as you look at it? To the right hand side! What if, then, Sanders, when she said she was on the 'east' side she meant the 'right hand side' (from her perspecitve - facing out) and thus she was in real terms standing on the 'west side' of the steps.