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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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6 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Let us look at some details in Mr. Frazier's testimonies. 

Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast.

The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s:

...

 

Andrej, just wondering, did you make that transcript?

Regards

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On 3/16/2017 at 2:00 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

...The reason for covering up Lee's whereabouts after 12.00noon was the necessity to place him to the sixth floor. Any testimony about Lee's whereabouts would lead to further questions and to a likely dismantling of the cover-up. 

I will come to Mr. Frazier's credibility in one of my next posts. I am on travel at the moment and have no access to my notes and to original sources. 

Andrej,

I'll wait patiently for your post on Frazier's credibility.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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14 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Frazier didn't know that Lee was going across Elm Street to buy his lunch - he assumed so. He said Lee sometimes bought something off the "truck".

And you are correct - Frazier said he saw Lee post shooting to which he did not tell the Commission. Some 50 years later and he is not afraid to divulge seeing Lee after the shooting, so I doubt he would be afraid to tell people that Lee was standing outside on the landing at the top of the stairs had that of been the case. Perhaps a researcher could contact Buell and talk to him about his seeing Lee after the shooting and ask why he didn't tell that to the Commission.

Why don't you have a go at it, you get some fresh air and you are away from the keyboard as well.

A win-win situation! :)

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Oh and Miller, before you bring that so called girth up again and try to move to a heavy set female such as Sarah Stanton.

Which  Doyle is yapping about btw from his padded cell at DPF. 

Pauline Sanders said she stood on the east side of the steps, with Sarah Stanton standing right next to her.

 

Girth......come off it.

Oswald's shirt was really a tight fit was it?

Why don't you show some good pictures that show this!

In all honesty your photo interpretation skills, like Doyle's, leave a lot to be desired.

Has it not occurred to you how similar in approach you two are and that no one else is buying any of it?

John McAdams cherry picked his way through this assassination stuff over the years as well, you two are part of that same club.

 

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15 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Frazier didn't know that Lee was going across Elm Street to buy his lunch - he assumed so. He said Lee sometimes bought something off the "truck".

And you are correct - Frazier said he saw Lee post shooting to which he did not tell the Commission. Some 50 years later and he is not afraid to divulge seeing Lee after the shooting, so I doubt he would be afraid to tell people that Lee was standing outside on the landing at the top of the stairs had that of been the case. Perhaps a researcher could contact Buell and talk to him about his seeing Lee after the shooting and ask why he didn't tell that to the Commission.

Muhahahahahaha, Miller it really is all falling apart isn't it?

 

According to Wesley Frazier:

      "A caterer service...comes around about 10 o'clock. The man comes around and several of the boys, they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service."

*****

Mr. Ball.
    Did you bring your lunch that day?
Mr. Jarman.
    No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Ball.
    What did you do about lunch that day?
Mr. Jarman.
    I got a sandwich off the carrying truck.
Mr. Ball.
    About what time of day?
Mr. Jarman.
    It was about 10 or a little after 10, maybe.
Mr. Ball.
    Where did you put it, keep it until lunch?
Mr. Jarman.
    In the domino room.

 


 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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"It is a sort of curiosity that the original Prayer Man thread "Oswald leaving ..." started on August 14, and the first Prayer Man post by Sean Murphy dates August 15, 2013. The interview with Mr. Frazier was posted (not sure when it was recorded though) on August 27, 2013. An interview that pushes Lee away from the first floor, in particular from the first floor vestibule, by having him exiting the building from the back of the building. Mr. Frazier did not see a Coke in Lee's hand (or did he?), so did Lee drink the alleged full bottle of Coke before leaving? Should we believe that he descended from the second floor via the front stairs, drank the Coke somewhere on the first floor as he was moving to the north side of the building, did not take his jacket from the first floor lunchroom, and then left whilst appearing perfectly normal to Mr. Frazier. And no one saw Oswald on the first floor while he was leaving even if he had to walk through the whole first floor to get to the back door."

 

Andrej, well spotted, he must have guzzled that coke down like there was no tomorrow, no one else saw him carry it besides Reid and no one saw him leave either. Piper and West should have if he had left via the back! So hea gets his coke afer the so called 2nd floor fugezi and then makes his way down the stairs to the front, has a chat with the absent (!) Shelley and makes his way out via the back....yup it all starts to make sense now.

He definitely wanted to have that coke so he could pee it all out during "War Is Hell"

:P

Edited by Bart Kamp
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4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

I'll wait patiently for your post on Frazier's credibility.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

The post awaited by you is just above. It compares a Living History interview with Mr. Frazier with his testimony for the Warren Commission. Mr. Frazier apparently lied to the commission about when he saw Oswald for the last time, and about his movements after the shooting. Mr. Frazier did not report his updated movements and his late sighting of Lee Oswald for 50 years. He either concealed the true course of events and lied in his sworn testimony, or he concocted his new route towards the east corner of the building and seeing Oswald on Houston/Elm only now (fifty years after the fact). In either case, Mr. Frazier lost his credibility. The question on him would be: Did you lie under oath when you said that your last sighting of Oswald was after 10AM?

I hope this helps.  

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

I'll wait patiently for your post on Frazier's credibility.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dig into this Paul, all the info and then some!!

Word of warning this is an archival post, you see view all 50 odd pages, but you cannot browse anywhere else besides the JFK Forum.

 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Which  Doyle is yapping about btw from his padded cell at DPF.

lol ;) Me thinks he (Doyle) doth protest too much. ;)

4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Pauline Sanders said she stood on the east side of the steps, with Sarah Stanton standing right next to her.

Small point -  Sanders didn't say 'standing right next to her', she said 'standing next to her'.
Small point - from the time Sanders reached the steps (12:20) and the time of the shots (12:30) people could have moved.

Anyway,

regarding Andrej's transcript,

On 17/03/2017 at 9:07 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Below is a transcript from the "Living History with Buell Wesley Frazier" interview recorded by the Sixth Floor Museum and posted on August 27, 2013. Mr. Fagin led the interview. The interview can be found on YouTube.com by typing the title of the video broadcast.

The relevant section of the interview starts at 33 min 50 s:...

I had a wee go at doing the transcript for myself;

Quote

 

Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all?
Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up  beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book  building was Lee Oswald.
Mr. Fagin: walking along this side of the building?
Mr. Frazier: Yes.
Mr. Fagin: Houston Street
Mr. Frazier. Yes, Houston Street. So, he'd come around from off the dock... here. And so, he walks up and I'm talking to this lady. He didn't say anything. And he crosses Houston. I watch him cross Houston as I was talking to the lady. and he gets over to the other side of Houston, and then he crosses  Elm. And somebody said something to me and I turned, and he was about half-way across the street, and when I turned back he was gone in the crowd, and I don’t know what happened to him. But I didn't worry too much about that because there were several places around there that you can go and eat a sandwich, and I remember asking him that morning when he was riding in with me, I says: Where's your lunch? He said: Oh, I'm gonna buy it off the truck today  I said: “OK”, Well, I didn’t think about what he told me about buying off the truck. He said, (??) a buy his lunch, “I will just  buy my lunch today”, and … I don't like to use the word assume  but I though he was talking about the catering truck , but there were
Mr. Fagin: There is no doubt in your mind that this was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. Frazier: He(?) was.
Mr.Fagin: Could you see the expression on his face,  is there anything you can tell us about the way he looked?
Mr. Frazier: There was nothing different about Lee. Expression on his face was … he looked perfectly normal. And that’s the last time that I remember seeing him.

 

Anyroads,

On 17/03/2017 at 9:07 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Late edit: It is a sort of curiosity that the original Prayer Man thread "Oswald leaving ..." started on August 14, and the first Prayer Man post by Sean Murphy dates August 15, 2013. The interview with Mr. Frazier was posted (not sure when it was recorded though) on August 27, 2013.

With the absolute greatest of respect... right at the start of the video it clearly states when it was recorded - July 13th 2013.

On 17/03/2017 at 9:07 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Now, in his Living History interview, he describes a full knew story in which he saw him leaving the depository from the back of the building, not from the front as the official version had it for fifty years.

Small point - Frazier does not say that he saw hime leaving the depository from the back of the building! What he does say is that he saw him walking along the side of the building and draws the conclusion that to be in such a position means he must have left via the docks, that's his inference but not the same as saying that he saw him leave via the back!

 

On 17/03/2017 at 9:07 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Mr. Frazier's interview also suggests that he might have other trumps in his sleeve as he was able to produce a brand new and never heard information after fifty years. Maybe, his ultimate card will be Prayer Man's identity.

Maybe that will be his 'ultimate card', maybe... it's a very interesting interview he gives, and when I first heard the bit about seeing Oswald after the shots I was surprised, genuinely I was... brand new and never heard infromation after fifty years indeed. What else surprised me was when he said, and I quote, "And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes," kind of ties in quite nicely with what he said to the WC: " There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name. " Frazier puts himself beside Sarah Stanton before, during and after the shots, the same Sarah Stanton that was mentioned as being out with Bill Shelley when Lovelady went and joined them... So in the moments just prior to the shots, do we know where Shelley and Lovelady are? Do we know where Frazier is? Where's Sarah then? ;)

And a little nugget that Frazier mentioned during the trial of Clay Shaw;

Quote

Q: Mr. Frazier, do you recall who you were with during the presidential motorcade?
A: Yes, sir, I can. When I was standing there at the top of the stairs I was standing there by a heavyset lady who worked up in our office, her name is Sara, I forget her last name, but she was standing right there beside me when we watched the motorcade.

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs
point of clarification
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28 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

lol ;) Me thinks he (Doyle) doth protest too much. ;)

Small point -  Sanders didn't say 'standing right next to her', she said 'standing next to her'.
Small point - from the time Sanders reached the steps (12:20) and the time of the shots (12:30) people could have moved.

Anyway,

regarding Andrej's transcript,

I had a wee go at doing the transcript for myself;

Anyroads,

With the absolute greatest of respect... right at the start of the video it clearly states when it was recorded - July 13th 2013.

Small point - Frazier does not say that he saw hime leaving the depository from the back of the building! What he does say is that he saw him walking along the side of the building and draws the conclusion that to be in such a position means he must have left via the docks, that's his inference but not the same as saying that he saw him leave via the back!

 

Maybe that will be his 'ultimate card', maybe... it's a very interesting interview he gives, and when I first heard the bit about seeing Oswald after the shots I was surprised, genuinely I was... brand new and never heard infromation after fifty years indeed. What else surprised me was when he said, and I quote, "And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes," kind of ties in quite nicely with what he said to the WC: " There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name. " Frazier puts himself beside Sarah Stanton before, during and after the shots, the same Sarah Stanton that was mentioned as being out with Bill Shelley when Lovelady went and joined them... So in the moments just prior to the shots, do we know where Shelley and Lovelady are? Do we know where Frazier is? Where's Sarah then? ;)

And a little nugget that Frazier mentioned during the trial of Clay Shaw;

 

Alistair:

thanks for amending the transcript. 

However, do you see the obvious conflict between Mr. Frazier's interview for the Sixth Floor Museum in 2013 and his Warren Commission testimony? One of the conflicts is how he described his movements after the shooting (adding a whole new route to the east corner of the building to his original description), and the other conflict being his sighting of Lee Oswald as late as after 12.30 compared to "after 10".  In which case did he say the truth, in his Warren Commission testimony or in his late interview? Would you agree that he did not speak the truth in one of these two sets of statements?

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Mr Holmes :
Then he said when all this commotion started, “I just went on downstairs.” And he didn’t say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, “I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about.”
Mr Belin :
Where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr Holmes :
He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr Belin :
He said it was in the vestibule?
Mr Holmes :
Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr Belin :
Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr Holmes :
First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
 
 
The above conversation is for those who don't know the difference between a vestibule
(definition:  "a lobby, entrance hall, or passage between the outer door and the interior of a building"----Vestibule or Vestibulum can have the following meanings, each primarily based upon a common origin, from early 17th century French, derived from Latin vestibulum, -i n. "entrance court".)
 
and a foyer"(definition:"large open area just inside the entrance of a public building such as a theatre or a hotel, where people can wait and meet each other:) 
 
Edited by Ray Mitcham
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4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

However, do you see the obvious conflict between Mr. Frazier's interview for the Sixth Floor Museum in 2013 and his Warren Commission testimony? One of the conflicts is how he described his movements after the shooting (adding a whole new route to the east corner of the building to his original description), and the other conflict being his sighting of Lee Oswald as late as after 12.30 compared to "after 10".  In which case did he say the truth, in his Warren Commission testimony or in his late interview? Would you agree that he did not speak the truth in one of these two sets of statements?

Andrej, I will respond to this in more detail later on.

In the meantime, just to share, here is part of an interview from Buell Frazier from 19th June 2002 in which he mentions seeing Lee after the shots...

Quote

Buell: Well, there’s been a lot of rumors. When... when we were... when we were outside the building, before we had gone in, I remember seeing Lee come from the... the dock area and walk up the street beside the Texas School Book Depository building. And there was so many things going on, and... and I saw him as he walked up. And he went across Houston Street, and I thought he may have going to get him a sandwich or something. So, I really didn’t think anything about it, and I lost him in the crowd. And I don’t know what happened from there.

 

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Andrej, I will respond to this in more detail later on.

In the meantime, just to share, here is part of an interview from Buell Frazier from 19th June 2002 in which he mentions seeing Lee after the shots...

 

Thanks for the new link.  So, Frazier's first mention of his new route was not during his Living History interview but 11 years earlier. I did not know that the 2002 interview also contained about the same information as he then described with more details in his 2013 interview. However, this does not change the discrepancy between information given during his Warren Commission testimony and in his two late interviews. The problem is whether he did describe his movements truthfully and gave a correct time of his last sighting of Oswald during his Warren Commission testimony. It is the question of Mr. Frazier's credibility. Your opinion? 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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