PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[...]

[...]

Looking at these two perfectly-aligned frames with the help of the green lines, we can see that in the first frame (the one without the cars) Lovelady is standing straight up while Prayer Man is taking a picture with both hands (or drinking two-handedly from a very shiny cup full of VERY hot coffee), and that in the second frame a few seconds later (with the cars), Lovelady is leaning forward quite a bit, probably in response to having heard the shots and / or screams and wondering what the heck's going on with the President.of the United States down the street. Taking his possible reaction to the shots into consideration might help to explain why Prayer Man both lowered his hands (still clutching the camera or coffee cup in both of them) and raised his head a little at about the same time that Lovelady leaned forward -- because Prayer Man, too, had heard the shots and wanted to get a better view of what was "going down," down on Elm Street.

PS Chris Davidson is to complimented for creating this excellent GIF.

--Tommy

PPS Lovelady's leaning forward and (probable) supporting himself by holding onto the center hand railing helps to explain why he (aka "Doorman" for some) looks so strangely-angled in Altgens 6.

bumped already

Edited September 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Okay Lance, I'll take your challenge.

Hypothesis

Lance says that the plotters would have wanted Oswald NOT to be caught outside the sniper's nest. I think that is a debatable point. I think a point could be made that a wandering Oswald would serve the CIA's goals better. As long as they planted enough evidence to show that Oswald was involved. Because if Oswald was found to be involved but not to be the actual shooter, that would point directly to there being a conspiracy. Wouldn't that serve the CIA's plans even better than making Oswald the lone killer? A conspiracy involving a man who is sympathetic to Russia and Cuba, who writes the Russian Embassy as if he were one of them, and who had recently met with a KGB assassin? A man who, in fact, used to live in Russia?

On the other hand, the U.S. government would do everything in their considerable power to place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the man they had caught (doubtless with the aid of the assassination plotters). Even if they had doubts about his guilt.

Do you see the beauty of the CIA's plan? In the process of making sure LHO was blamed for the assassination, on the U.S. government's dime, the heat would be taken off the real conspirators.

OK, fair enough, you tried. But this is "conspiracy logic," which does not necessarily overlap with actual logic. We are so convinced of a conspiracy that even evidence which points clearly in the opposite direction must be fitted into the supposed conspiracy, even when this requires pounding a 1" round wooden peg into a 1/4" square steel hole. COME ON, if "they" are going to go to all the trouble of creating the illusion that LHO purchased the rifle, and then all the trouble of planting it on the 6th floor, "they" are damn well going to make sure LHO isn't seen and photographed by 50 people standing on the TSBD steps at the very moment of the assassination. Ergo, PM is simply not LHO. But no, we are so enamored of our conspiracy theory that we must fit every last piece of evidence into it, and thus the conspiracy evolves to suggest that LHO standing on the front steps of the TSBD would actually serve the "their" purposes. What? Hello? If "they" wanted to do what you are suggesting, they would simply have convincingly framed LHO and left rifles and/or cartridges at a couple of other locations.

At the point of the paragraphs I have quoted above, it seems to me that your scenario becomes completely implausible and we end up, once again, with a Rube Goldberg conspiracy that bears no resemblance to any real conspiracy in the history of the world.

If PM is not LHO, this obviously serves the Lone Nut cause since LHO could then have been on the 6th floor shooting JFK. But if PM is not LHO, this to me likewise does not place any serious dent in the more plausible conspiracy theories. My point is simply that, IMHO, the notion that PM is LHO is implausible beyond the vanishing point regardless of whether one is a Lone Nutter or a Conspiracy Theorist.

[Guest]

Why did Oswald not proclaim innocence, Lance? C'mon now, a smart fellow like you should have no trouble figuring this one out, or are you just pretending to have trouble with it?

Shortly after his arrest, I would imagine a message was put through to Oswald to just sit tight and keep his mouth shut, things would change at the last minute and he would be set free. Now, he might have thought about telling everything he knew about a conspiracy but, what good would that do?

1. No one would believe a commie, and the agencies would go into automatic denial.

2. This would guarantee his getting terminated early.

With nothing to lose, and everything to gain, he would have decided his best option was to sit still for the moment and see which way the wind blew. He might have already been told that people near him on the steps, such as Frazier, were about to develop amnesia and would be unable to provide him an alibi, or it might not have been discovered immediately that such a minor player in the assassination was even out on the steps. Look how many years it took us to find him.

But as has been pointed out, he didn't keep quiet. He pretty clearly denied any involvement. I realize many of the interrogators pointed out LHO's unusual calm, but you are not only speculating at a very wild level but also attributing almost supernatural self-control to LHO and almost supernatural faith in him by the conspirators. "Just sit tight, it's all under control" - this advice to an erratic 24-year-old guy in custody for assassinating the President of the United States??? To me, another example of "conspiracy logic."

You also ask, "He might have said he was a patsy but, did he say who was making him a patsy?" What I hear on the famous video clip is LHO pretty clearly saying he is a patsy of the Dallas police, who have targeted him solely because of his connection to the USSR. LHO may well have been a patsy of conspirators, but I don't hear him claiming any such thing in the video.

[Guest]

We think alike on this matter, Sandy.

I believe certain people dearly wanted a conspiracy to be "discovered"; why else risk a shot from the front that left a gaping exit wound in the back of JFK's head?

At the last minute, maybe cooler heads did prevail, and the thought of millions of Americans and Russians disappearing in a thermonuclear flash was just a bit too much to handle, and it was decided to place the blame on a "lone nut" who, up to that point, had only been one of several conspirators, and not even a shooter.

I'm not in violent disagreement, except with respect to the notion that PM = LHO is worth pursuing.

I can (and pretty much do, although I'm not 100% convinced) absolutely believe a tight-knit conspiracy by rabid right-wingers who were outraged by the Bay of Pigs and wanted to provoke an attack on Cuba and perhaps really didn’t much care if the attack provoked World War III. If the assassination looked like a left-wing conspiracy rather than the work of a left-wing lone nut, so much the better for what the conspirators were trying to accomplish.

In this scenario, LHO with his Marxist credentials would have indeed been a perfect, made-to-order patsy. Make sure his rifle is found on the 6th floor and that he isn’t seen elsewhere at the time he was supposedly firing the rifle. Allowing him to be seen elsewhere would unnecessarily complicate things and raise questions you don’t need raised – just make him a convincing shooter. If you need further evidence to establish the conspiracy, plant a rifle and some shells in the Dal-Tex building or on the grassy knoll. Leave a few Cuban cigar butts for good measure. Bingo, you’ve accomplished your objective. Indeed, the fact that more evidence of a conspiracy wasn't found is troubling to me, because such evidence surely would have furthered the conspirators' purposes. However, allowing LHO to be standing on the steps of the TSBD at the moment of the assassination would make no sense; it would add nothing and risk exposing what the conspiracy was really all about.

Perhaps the FBI then messes up your plan by making LHO the lone assassin for reasons having nothing to do with your conspiracy (i.e., exposure of LHO's intelligence connections and the massive failures on the part of the FBI and Secret Service to protect JFK), perhaps even going so far as to alter films and the body and whatnot, but you can’t control that.

This to me makes far more sense than the sort of Byzantine conspiracy being suggested on most of these threads. To me, PM = LHO simply doesn’t pass what we lawyers call the “straight face test” (meaning we’re willing to make any argument we can make to the judge with a straight face). Even if I were to substitute a far grander conspiracy involving LBJ, Hoover, the FBI, the CIA, the Secret Service, Military Intelligence, the Postal Service and the Mafia for my hypothesized tight-knit group of right-wingers, I cannot see any scenario in which allowing LHO to be standing on the front steps of the TSBD makes any sense. I can't even imagine how conspirators capable of planning and executing the assassination of JFK could, at the same time, have been such fumbling, stumbling bumpkins that they carelessly allowed LHO to wander outside at the very moment he was supposed to be on the 6th floor.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Guest

[Robert Prudhomme]

Lance

You have to broaden your thinking here a little. Your vision of a right wing conspiracy operating with clockwork like precision and achieving all of their goals is hardly representative of the coverup that followed.

The coverup that I have been studying all these years is one of the sloppiest messes conceivable, with more loose ends than can be counted. The only thing that has kept the coverup from being exposed is the vast majority of Americans are terrified of their having been a coup d'etat in America, and they will swallow any lie just as long as they don't have to look over the cliff.

Do you really think all the conspirators wanted was JFK dead? Do you really believe their only plan was the Lone Nut plan? What if LHO was only a bit player in the original plan, and no one thought anything of him being on the steps? What if the conspiracy was meant to be discovered, and used as a pretext for invading Cuba, or bombing Russia, and someone got cold feet at the last minute, and a Plan B had already been worked out, where LHO was the Lone Nut? What if no one really believed they needed Plan B until they actually did, explaining why tighter control was not placed on LHO?

[Thomas Graves]

Lance

You have to broaden your thinking here a little. Your vision of a right wing conspiracy operating with clockwork like precision and achieving all of their goals is hardly representative of the coverup that followed.

The coverup that I have been studying all these years is one of the sloppiest messes conceivable, with more loose ends than can be counted. The only thing that has kept the coverup from being exposed is the vast majority of Americans are terrified of their having been a coup d'etat in America, and they will swallow any lie just as long as they don't have to look over the cliff.

Do you really think all the conspirators wanted was JFK dead? Do you really believe their only plan was the Lone Nut plan? What if LHO was only a bit player in the original plan, and no one thought anything of him being on the steps? What if the conspiracy was meant to be discovered, and used as a pretext for invading Cuba, or bombing Russia, and someone got cold feet at the last minute, and a Plan B had already been worked out, where LHO was the Lone Nut? What if no one really believed they needed Plan B until they actually did, explaining why tighter control was not placed on LHO?

Robert,

If LHO was only a "bit player" about whose location during the assassination the big boys didn't care, then I don't understand why they arranged in advance for his rifle (or a rifle that could be traced to him) to be found on the sixth floor. Or was the Klein's money order, etc, and the "finding" of the MC just part of a very complicated after-the-fact cover up, in your opinion?

What kind of "bit player" role do you think the big boys might have given him, anyway?

Regarding your idea that Plan B might have been substituted for Plan A at the last minute, how reasonable do you think the plotters were to not make sure that Oswald stayed out of sight, period, in case the last-minute switcheroo became necessary?

--Tommy

Edited September 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Lance

You have to broaden your thinking here a little. Your vision of a right wing conspiracy operating with clockwork like precision and achieving all of their goals is hardly representative of the coverup that followed.

The coverup that I have been studying all these years is one of the sloppiest messes conceivable, with more loose ends than can be counted. The only thing that has kept the coverup from being exposed is the vast majority of Americans are terrified of their having been a coup d'etat in America, and they will swallow any lie just as long as they don't have to look over the cliff.

Do you really think all the conspirators wanted was JFK dead? Do you really believe their only plan was the Lone Nut plan? What if LHO was only a bit player in the original plan, and no one thought anything of him being on the steps? What if the conspiracy was meant to be discovered, and used as a pretext for invading Cuba, or bombing Russia, and someone got cold feet at the last minute, and a Plan B had already been worked out, where LHO was the Lone Nut? What if no one really believed they needed Plan B until they actually did, explaining why tighter control was not placed on LHO?

Robert,

If LHO was only a "bit player" about whose location during the assassination the big boys didn't care, then I don't understand why they arranged in advance for his rifle (or a rifle that could be traced to him) to be found on the sixth floor. Or was the Klein's money order, etc, and the "finding" of the MC just part of a very complicated after-the-fact cover up, in your opinion?

What kind of "bit player" role do you think the big boys might have given him, anyway?

Regarding your idea that Plan B might have been substituted for Plan A at the last minute, how reasonable do you think the plotters were to not make sure that Oswald stayed out of sight, period, in case the last-minute switcheroo became necessary?

--Tommy

And welcome back to you Thomas.

Use your imagination. Try to think how many patsies were set up for that day (or several days) with rifles and backyard photos, or other bits of incriminating "evidence". The problem with all of us is we all tend to think in small terms, and none of us have the ability to grasp what we are up against.

No idea what LHO's role might have been. Lookout, perhaps?

Not everyone can predict the future. This was 1963 and no one had cell phones. Maybe the conspirators didn't really expect two films to show up with one of their boys in them.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Ray Mitcham]

And at the time they never dreamt that the world would be able to investigate the evidence via computers, and dissect very little nuance.

They mistakenly thought they could get away with any sloppy cover-up

[Guest]

Lance

You have to broaden your thinking here a little. Your vision of a right wing conspiracy operating with clockwork like precision and achieving all of their goals is hardly representative of the coverup that followed.

The coverup that I have been studying all these years is one of the sloppiest messes conceivable, with more loose ends than can be counted. The only thing that has kept the coverup from being exposed is the vast majority of Americans are terrified of their having been a coup d'etat in America, and they will swallow any lie just as long as they don't have to look over the cliff.

Do you really think all the conspirators wanted was JFK dead? Do you really believe their only plan was the Lone Nut plan? What if LHO was only a bit player in the original plan, and no one thought anything of him being on the steps? What if the conspiracy was meant to be discovered, and used as a pretext for invading Cuba, or bombing Russia, and someone got cold feet at the last minute, and a Plan B had already been worked out, where LHO was the Lone Nut? What if no one really believed they needed Plan B until they actually did, explaining why tighter control was not placed on LHO?

At one time, my thinking was quite broad. When Lifton's and Groden's books first came out, I lapped them up. It has narrowed over the decades as I've become more familiar with the evidence and what a plausible conspiracy might look like. I think it is entirely possible that "all the assassination conspirators wanted was JFK dead," simply as revenge for the Bay of Pigs fiasco. I likewise think it is entirely possible they hoped to provoke an invasion of Cuba and the elimination of Castro. Either one to me is an entirely believable conspiracy that fits with the best evidence.

In this scenario, the cover-up conspiracy really has no relation to the assassination conspiracy. It is an independent conspiracy, to cover up LHO's intelligence connections and the staggering ineptitude of the FBI and Secret Service, and perhaps to avoid a public outcry for military action against Cuba and the USSR as LBJ feared. This to me is an entirely plausible secondary conspiracy. It was messy because it was organized on the fly, immediately after the realization that LHO had been arrested. This explains why there is seemingly such a disconnect between the well-planned assassination and the clumsy cover-up. (A nod to Larry Hancock, whose books have helped crystallize my thinking on some of these issues.)

How messy the cover-up conspiracy was depends on what you think it included. For True Believers, the cover-up conspiracy was so elaborate and multi-faceted as to defy belief; almost nothing, from the body itself to the Zapruder film and beyond was not altered by the conspirators. As with the assassination, it seems to me that a much smaller-scale and believable conspiracy would have sufficed.

I realize a smaller-scale assassination conspiracy, followed by a smaller-scale cover-up conspiracy, is no fun. A massive assassination/cover-up conspiracy, with LBJ, Hoover, the CIA, the Dallas Police and many others intimately involved, is way more interesting. Harvey and Lee is more fun. PM is more fun. The problem is, a massive conspiracy is inherently fantastical (meaning this simply isn't the way conspiracies work) and is supported by "evidence" that is almost entirely speculative or extremely weak.

One of my least-popular posts on this forum asked if perhaps there is a connection between one's political inclinations and what one is willing to believe about the JFK assassination. If I believed JFK would have ushered in a Golden Age if he had lived, and that we would currently be living in a Utopia of peaceful open-minded tolerance rather than the fragmented mess on the edge of civil war in which we actually find ourselves, then I believe a massive assassination/cover-up conspiracy whose tentacles extend right up to the present time would be quite appealing. A scenario in which the assassination and cover-up were products of their time, as I believe is much more likely the case, would be less appealing.

But anyway, I truly don't see how LHO as PM fits any scenario. If LHO was standing outside on the TSBD steps at the time of the assassination, I think we need to take a hard look at the Three Stooges and Keystone Cops as the possible masterminds of the conspiracy.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Guest

[Andrej Stancak]

Dear Lance,

I am one of those who lean toward the hypothesis of Prayer Man's identity being Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. The Prayer Man's figure can be best modelled by a male figure measuring 5'9''. His hair line very much conforms Mr. Oswald's hair line. The man came to his location in Darnell's and Wiegman's films from inside the building. There are simply no other candidates among the Depository employees who would satisfy 1) the height, 2) the hair line, 3) coming from inside the building criteria than Mr. Oswald. Here I would refer to the original posts of Mr. Sean Murphy in the original Prayer Man thread, e.g. the one in response to Mr. Speer in which Mr. Murphy asked to identify from the list of Depository employees someone other than Mr. Oswald who could be Prayer Man.

I agree that it is a bit frustrating at this stage not to be able to convince just everyone with showing Darnell's stills that Pray Man was Oswald. However, this situation represents a challenge to do more research and put more effort than has been currently done. One line, pursued by fellow researchers at Reopen Kennedy Case forum, attempts to obtain a better copy of Darnell's film than the currently available copy. Other lines attempt to add some more objective elements into this difficult perceptual decision task. Sooner or later, unfortunately not right away at this moment, the identity of Prayer Man will be determined unequivocally. Thanks to the progress of science, we have statistical data analysis methods allowing to decide about the probability with which Prayer Man was or was not Oswald. It would be wrong to say that it is a piece of cake to carry out such analyses though.

I find your comments disproving the possibility of Prayer Man being Mr. Oswald based on the assumption that the plotters would not allow his presence in the doorway as premature and speculative. There can be a number of explanations of why Mr. Oswald occurred in the doorway (if he did), however, I see no merit in responding to speculations with even more speculations. This would only yield a flury of posts of which none would shed any new light on the problem.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Lance,

I am one of those who lean toward the hypothesis of Prayer Man's identity being Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald. The Prayer Man's figure can be best modelled by a male figure measuring 5'9''. His hair line very much conforms Mr. Oswald's hair line. The man came to his location in Darnell's and Wiegman's films from inside the building. There are simply no other candidates among the Depository employees who would satisfy 1) the height, 2) the hair line, 3) coming from inside the building criteria than Mr. Oswald. Here I would refer to the original posts of Mr. Sean Murphy in the original Prayer Man thread, e.g. the one in response to Mr. Speer in which Mr. Murphy asked to identify from the list of Depository employees someone other than Mr. Oswald who could be Prayer Man.

I agree that it is a bit frustrating at this stage not to be able to convince just everyone with showing Darnell's stills that Pray Man was Oswald. However, this situation represents a challenge to do more research and put more effort than has been currently done. One line, pursued by fellow researchers at Reopen Kennedy Case forum, attempts to obtain a better copy of Darnell's film than the currently available copy. Other lines attempt to add some more objective elements into this difficult perceptual decision task. Sooner or later, unfortunately not right away at this moment, the identity of Prayer Man will be determined unequivocally. Thanks to the progress of science, we have statistical data analysis methods allowing to decide about the probability with which Prayer Man was or was not Oswald. It would be wrong to say that it is a piece of cake to carry out such analyses though.

I find your comments disproving the possibility of Prayer Man being Mr. Oswald based on the assumption that the plotters would not allow his presence in the doorway as premature and speculative. There can be a number of explanations of why Mr. Oswald occurred in the doorway (if he did), however, I see no merit in responding to speculations with even more speculations. This would only yield a flury of posts of which none would shed any new light on the problem.

We all know that Oswald was a bit of a renegade.

Maybe he was told to wait by the phone or the back door for some other "mission" and simply didn't follow instructions.

Or, he may even have suspected that he was being set up and decided to go outside so someone might notice him there and be will to testify to that effect later, if necessary.

Which reminds me of a thought I had recently:

Isn't it interesting that no one claimed to have noticed "Prayer Man / Prayer Woman" ?

Also, has anyone ever identified the old-looking lady (wearing a black raincoat and a scarf on her head and carrying a large bag / purse) who is waiting to get back into the TSBD in the same Hughes footage that "caught" a neanderthalish-looking Lovelady smoking a cigarette?

Is it possible that she was "Prayer Man" ?

--Tommy

Edited September 1, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

I find your comments disproving the possibility of Prayer Man being Mr. Oswald based on the assumption that the plotters would not allow his presence in the doorway as premature and speculative. There can be a number of explanations of why Mr. Oswald occurred in the doorway (if he did), however, I see no merit in responding to speculations with even more speculations. This would only yield a flury of posts of which none would shed any new light on the problem.

"The man came to his location in Darnell's and Wiegman's films from inside the building." What is your basis for this statement? What is the basis for assuming PM must be a TSBD employee? Was everyone in that vicinity a TBSD employee? The "hair line," to the extent it can be discerned at all, is consistent with about 30% of the people on the planet, men and women alike. You can determine from this image, where all the people are standing on steps, that the most likely height is 5'-9"? I'm 6" taller than my wife, but we have numerous photos where you'd swear we were about the same height. I'm not just being argumentative. My point is simply that the entire PM exercise is speculative in the extreme. Given the quality of the images, the science is really more like pseudo-science: We desperately want this to be LHO, so let's force-fit the blurry, grainy images into that theory and proclaim the mystery solved. Even matters for which there really is solid evidence, such as the lunchroom encounter, must be subsumed to our new favorite theory, PM = LHO. Because we desperately want PM to be LHO, the lunchroom encounter must be a fabrication and Baker and Truly must have been intimately involved in the conspiracy. (BTW, how many "serious researchers" were "sure" for how many years that the much clearer photo of Lovelady in Altgens 6 was LHO? When that didn't pan out, they moved up a step and found blurry PM lurking in the shadows.)

I have no objection to anyone analyzing the existing films and photos with the best available technology and continuing to search for better ones. "Better ones," however, is the only way this issue will be resolved. The current films and photos are little more than a Rorschach test; True Believers will see LHO while those who are less wedded to the theory will admit PM could be pretty much anyone. I believe it is entirely rational to ask, at the outset, "Under what possible conspiracy scenario could the patsy who was supposed to be shooting JFK from the 6th floor window have been allowed to be standing outside the TSBD in full view of 50 or more witnesses and photographers at that very moment?" In short, does PM = LHO make any sense? If the answer is no, then the fact that the person in the image may be 5'9" (highly debatable) and may have a hair line similar to LHO's (debatable) becomes largely irrelevant.

If something approximating a clear image of PM is ever found, such that LHO can actually be identified, I'll cheerfully acknowledge the fact because I'm at least 85% inclined to the view that he was a patsy. Until then, however, I don't believe PM is worth the excitement he or she is generating. Unless and until a clear image is found, I believe it is entirely fair to ask, "What sense would this theory make if it were true?" If I insist gnomes rather than gophers are causing the damage in my garden (to go back to my earlier post), the answer would be: "Well, we'd have to revise our entire theory of reality." Would that answer color the way reasonable people would view my "evidence" of gnomes? Yeah, I think so.

[Guest]

Also, has anyone ever identified the old-looking lady (wearing a black raincoat and a scarf on her head and carrying a large bag / purse) who is waiting to get back into the TSBD in the same Hughes footage that "caught" a neanderthalish-looking Lovelady smoking a cigarette?

Is it possible that she was "Prayer Man" ?

--Tommy

Tommy, as I was floundering around in various PM links yesterday, I did find one suggesting that this woman might be PM. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to find the link again. Anyway, I'm sure someone will be able to provide a definitive explanation as to why she can't be PM (because PM is LHO, for one thing)!

As to your other speculation, I have a really hard time with the idea that conspirators went to the lengths they did to frame LHO but failed to control his whereabouts at the critical moment. Again, we have the problem of the conspirators being geniuses at Steps 1, 4 and 6 but idiots at Steps 2, 3 and 5.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[...]

[duplicate]

Edited September 2, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Also, has anyone ever identified the old-looking lady (wearing a black raincoat and a scarf on her head and carrying a large bag / purse) who is waiting to get into the TSBD in the same Hughes footage that "caught" a neanderthalish-looking Lovelady smoking a cigarette?

Is it possible that she was "Prayer Man" ?

--Tommy

Tommy, as I was floundering around in various PM links yesterday, I did find one suggesting that this woman might be PM. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to find the link again. Anyway, I'm sure someone will be able to provide a definitive explanation as to why she can't be PM (because PM is LHO, for one thing)!

As to your other speculation, I have a really hard time with the idea that conspirators went to the lengths they did to frame LHO but failed to control his whereabouts at the critical moment. Again, we have the problem of the conspirators being geniuses at Steps 1, 4 and 6 but idiots at Steps 2, 3 and 5.

Lance,

From post #1470 on the "Oswald leaving TSBD?" thread.

The films by John martin, Jr. and Robert Hughes show "The Old Lady" we're talking about, waiting to get into (or back into?) the TSBD. I figure T.O.L. probably worked in the TSBD and I'm wondering if she's ever been identified.

She also appears in the Couch / Darnell footage in which "Shelley" and "Lovelady" can be seen walking down Elm Street Extension towards the railroad yards and "Marion Baker" can be see running towards the TSBD.

T.O.L., carrying her big white bag, walks rapidly from right to left towards the middle of this synchronized Couch / Darnell gif by Gerda Dunckel:

-- Tommy

So the timing tells us T.O.L. couldn't possibly be Prayer Man because PM is still standing back in the corner while she's walking down the street (she's not visible in this short clip from Darnell, though, because she's just passed out of view to the left on the other side of Stetson Man).

-- Tommy

Edited September 2, 2016 by Thomas Graves