PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Andrej Stancak]

6 hours ago, Claude Barnabe said:

I went back and reread portions of Joe Molina's HSCA testimony. He was asked point blank: 'Do you have an opinion as to if LHO had been standing on the front steps whether or not you would have seen him?' answer:"I would have recalled if he had been standing there, yes. I don't recall seeing him standing there". Personally, I can leave a 'crack' of doubt that Mr. Molina missed it, in that moment. The first day FBI affidavits however, (remember, the government thought they were going to trial) and reason tells me PM can't be LHO, though I wanted it to be.

Claude:

Molina was a communist agent suspect and was harassed by the low enforcement enough to tell anything it was wished from him. The forces we are speaking about are strong enough to hijack President's body and alter wounds, to capture visual evidence (films) no one ever saw later, to take all evidence to Washington, to plant compromising evidence on Lee Oswald, such as his wallet on the site of J.D. Tippit's killing, and many more. Oswald's setup started sooner than after the assassination, and things such as someone could say Oswald was in the doorway were a relatively small problem. It is the Darnell film which somehow escaped the censorship (to my knowledge it was not shown to the Warren Commission) and revealed presence of Prayer Man what caused a crack in the official version.

To ask a witness if he/she has recalled seeing someone is a comparatively indirect evidence. A direct would be: "Look at this man in this still who was standing in the opposite corner of the doorway whilst you were also standing there. Who he was?" None of the witnesses has been asked this question. Mr. Frazier was shown the picture and asked and he just could not answer. Prayer Man stood even closer to him than to Molina. Mr. Frazier could answer: "This is certainly not a Depository employee" or "It was this and this person".

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

On 12/21/2016 at 3:24 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

 

 

Just looks to be back in the corner and leaning on the wall as people are filing past him.

That's what it looks to me like too.

I've tried many times imagining PM standing with one foot on the first step down from the top, and it just doesn't fit what my mind expects to see. But granted, things are no always as they seem.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Claude:

Molina was a communist agent suspect and was harassed by the low enforcement enough to tell anything it was wished from him. The forces we are speaking about are strong enough to hijack President's body and alter wounds, to capture visual evidence (films) no one ever saw later, to take all evidence to Washington, to plant compromising evidence on Lee Oswald, such as his wallet on the site of J.D. Tippit's killing, and many more. Oswald's setup started sooner than after the assassination, and things such as someone could say Oswald was in the doorway were a relatively small problem. It is the Darnell film which somehow escaped the censorship (to my knowledge it was not shown to the Warren Commission) and revealed presence of Prayer Man what caused a crack in the official version.

To ask a witness if he/she has recalled seeing someone is a comparatively indirect evidence. A direct would be: "Look at this man in this still who was standing in the opposite corner of the doorway whilst you were also standing there. Who he was?" None of the witnesses has been asked this question. Mr. Frazier was shown the picture and asked and he just could not answer. Prayer Man stood even closer to him than to Molina. Mr. Frazier could answer: "This is certainly not a Depository employee" or "It was this and this person".

 

Well said, Andrej.

[Bill Miller]

8 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Claude:

Molina was a communist agent suspect and was harassed by the low enforcement enough to tell anything it was wished from him. The forces we are speaking about are strong enough to hijack President's body and alter wounds, to capture visual evidence (films) no one ever saw later, to take all evidence to Washington, to plant compromising evidence on Lee Oswald, such as his wallet on the site of J.D. Tippit's killing, and many more. Oswald's setup started sooner than after the assassination, and things such as someone could say Oswald was in the doorway were a relatively small problem. It is the Darnell film which somehow escaped the censorship (to my knowledge it was not shown to the Warren Commission) and revealed presence of Prayer Man what caused a crack in the official version.

To ask a witness if he/she has recalled seeing someone is a comparatively indirect evidence. A direct would be: "Look at this man in this still who was standing in the opposite corner of the doorway whilst you were also standing there. Who he was?" None of the witnesses has been asked this question. Mr. Frazier was shown the picture and asked and he just could not answer. Prayer Man stood even closer to him than to Molina. Mr. Frazier could answer: "This is certainly not a Depository employee" or "It was this and this person"

The forces that be certainly existed to some extent, but were limited as to what they could do without exposing their hand. To go beyond that by implying they may have prevented Frazier from recalling who was standing in the corner of the entrance is painting with a pretty broad brush I would say. It was apparent that there were several offices inside the TSBD, thus it was not uncommon for people to not actually know someone's name or recall ever seeing a particular person that was employed elsewhere in the building. And if someone is implying that Frazier knew Lee Oswald stood next to him in the entrance and didn't say so because of the old 'powers that be' excuse, then I say that is a hint of what I call tabloid research designed to push a theory that has no viable evidence to support it. You see there were some things the 'powers that be' could not control and that is to be certain of the names of all the 500+ people in an around the TSBD both prior and post shooting so to quickly get to them to be intimidated - there would be no way to know who these people had spoken to within the first minutes and hours of the shooting to know how many more people were privy to what these witnesses had claimed to have seen - and there would be no way to know who may have taken a film or a photo that had yet to be seen or known about so to stop if from being discovered after the fact. If all those things were in control of the powers that be, then the WC interviewers would not have had to be so painfully obvious about their moving away from point that a witnesses stated that should have been questioned in more depth. In other words, a better show could have been put on for history's sake, but wasn't because of the large scale of witnesses and evidence they may have that could not possibly have been known. I suggest that had Frazier been standing next to Lee Oswald on the top of the stairs near the entrance, then he would have said so.

And to try to determine details of Prayer-Man's posture with such a poor photographic source like that in poor quality movie films is like pouring gasoline on the ground and looking for images to appear. Without something more to work with ... it is a road that cannot go anywhere.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Claude Barnabe]

Frazier didn't 'cave' when the "powers that be" tried to get him to change the curtain rod package length. If LHO had been on that top step I believe he would have said so.

[Bill Miller]

50 minutes ago, Claude Barnabe said:

Frazier didn't 'cave' when the "powers that be" tried to get him to change the curtain rod package length. If LHO had been on that top step I believe he would have said so.

Another good point, Claude.

[Andrej Stancak]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's what it looks to me like too.

I've tried many times imagining PM standing with one foot on the first step down from the top, and it just doesn't fit what my mind expects to see. But granted, things are no always as they seem.

Sandy, maybe at least you would be willing to say if the Prayer Man's left leg in the still I posted was bent in knee joint or not. I am puzzled that no one can answer this simple question.

[Andrej Stancak]

Claude:

there were no curtain rods in Frazier's car. This was Buel's and his sister's invention. It was designed to save him from prosecution for taking part the murder of President Kennedy. Oswald himself denied he carried any curtian rods. O'Toole's book addressed Frazier's testimonies in detail, Frazier showed always hard stress in his voice once "curtain rods" were pronounced. Some researchers claim, and have good arguments for their assertions, for saying Oswald did not have any rifle in Paine's garage and did not even own one. I think he actually  brought the rifle on Friday morning not knowing it would be used to frame him. Frazier saw the rifle, and maybe they two discussed the rifle. In that scenario, Frazier was in real trouble once he realised that President was killed by gun shots because he assisted by bringing a rifle to the Depository. Curtain rods story was a bail out - he admitted to carry something which could (according the Comission) be a rifle but also not. This may be the true origin of the curtain rod story. 

 

 

[Robin Unger]

Darnell crop

[Sandy Larsen]

54 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy, maybe at least you would be willing to say if the Prayer Man's left leg in the still I posted was bent in knee joint or not. I am puzzled that no one can answer this simple question.

I haven't answered your question because the photo isn't clear enough for me to form an opinion.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Bill Miller]

54 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I haven't answered your question because the photo isn't clear enough for me to form an opinion.

That is a responsible response - there is no strength in numbers when looking at such a ridiculous image. All it does is open the field up for meaningless theories to be introduced as to who it is. One might as well ask who all thinks Frazier is looking at the guy and winking - no way to know that either.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Andrej Stancak]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

That is a responsible response - there is no strength in numbers when looking at such a ridiculous image. All it does is open the field up for meaningless theories to be introduced as to who it is. One might as well ask who all thinks Frazier is looking at the guy and winking - no way to know that either.

Bill:

the question of who this man was is not meaningless at all. We have two threads achieving many thousands views and comments. Even you have joined the discussion. This man was on this spot not only some 20 seconds after the assassination but also in the period very close to the last shot. His hairline is unusually similar to Oswald's hairline, and there are other similarities (e.g., his stance, style of clothing) which are less indicative but certainly in line with Oswald's figure. We do not know too much about Oswald's movement from 12.15 when he might have been seen in the first floor till the shooting. This 15 minute period is a long one, and allowed him for instance to stand behind the glass door while the motorcade passed the Depository and to enter the doorway once he "saw all the excitement" associated with shooting.

I also came  late to the discussion but soon realised that the official line has completely ignored this man: neither Warren Commission nor House Select Committee ever mentioned the man standing close to the western wall practically during the shooting. The list of Depository employees who were in the doorway during the assassination is well known. Maybe Judith McCulley'name is sometimes dropped because her initial testimony for the FBI placed her to the fourth floor. If there is a possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald, it needs to be explored and answered since if it were Oswald posing as Prayer Man, this exonerates him completely as the assassin. In the case that Prayer Man and Oswald were one and the same person, I would wish that his family knows, if nothing more. The question posted by Sean Murphy in the original Prayer Man thread in his reply to Mr. Pat Speer still holds: who was this person if not Oswald? If you do not wish to know the answer since you consider the question meaningless, I am not sure why are you actually contributing to the Prayer Man threads. I have not seen any attempt on your part to explain the identity of this man, only quite a dismissive style of commenting to posts of those who explore the issue in great detail.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

the question of who this man was is not meaningless at all. We have two threads achieving many thousands views and comments. Even you have joined the discussion. This man was on this spot not only some 20 seconds after the assassination but also in the period very close to the last shot. His hairline is unusually similar to Oswald's hairline, and there are other similarities (e.g., his stance, style of clothing) which are less indicative but certainly in line with Oswald's figure. We do not know too much about Oswald's movement from 12.15 when he might have been seen in the first floor till the shooting. This 15 minute period is a long one, and allowed him for instance to stand behind the glass door while the motorcade passed the Depository and to enter the doorway once he "saw all the excitement" associated with shooting.

I also came  late to the discussion but soon realised that the official line has completely ignored this man: neither Warren Commission nor House Select Committee ever mentioned the man standing close to the western wall practically during the shooting. The list of Depository employees who were in the doorway during the assassination is well known. Maybe Judith McCulley'name is sometimes dropped because her initial testimony for the FBI placed her to the fourth floor. If there is a possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald, it needs to be explored and answered since if it were Oswald posing as Prayer Man, this exonerates him completely as the assassin. In the case that Prayer Man and Oswald were one and the same person, I would wish that his family knows, if nothing more. The question posted by Sean Murphy in the original Prayer Man thread in his reply to Mr. Pat Speer still holds: who was this person if not Oswald? If you do not wish to know the answer since you consider the question meaningless, I am not sure why are you actually contributing to the Prayer Man threads. I have not seen any attempt on your part to explain the identity of this man, only quite a dismissive style of commenting to posts of those who explore the issue in great detail.

 

Well said... again.

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

the question of who this man was is not meaningless at all. We have two threads achieving many thousands views and comments. Even you have joined the discussion. This man was on this spot not only some 20 seconds after the assassination but also in the period very close to the last shot. His hairline is unusually similar to Oswald's hairline, and there are other similarities (e.g., his stance, style of clothing) which are less indicative but certainly in line with Oswald's figure. We do not know too much about Oswald's movement from 12.15 when he might have been seen in the first floor till the shooting. This 15 minute period is a long one, and allowed him for instance to stand behind the glass door while the motorcade passed the Depository and to enter the doorway once he "saw all the excitement" associated with shooting.

I also came  late to the discussion but soon realised that the official line has completely ignored this man: neither Warren Commission nor House Select Committee ever mentioned the man standing close to the western wall practically during the shooting. The list of Depository employees who were in the doorway during the assassination is well known. Maybe Judith McCulley'name is sometimes dropped because her initial testimony for the FBI placed her to the fourth floor. If there is a possibility that Prayer Man was Oswald, it needs to be explored and answered since if it were Oswald posing as Prayer Man, this exonerates him completely as the assassin. In the case that Prayer Man and Oswald were one and the same person, I would wish that his family knows, if nothing more. The question posted by Sean Murphy in the original Prayer Man thread in his reply to Mr. Pat Speer still holds: who was this person if not Oswald? If you do not wish to know the answer since you consider the question meaningless, I am not sure why are you actually contributing to the Prayer Man threads. I have not seen any attempt on your part to explain the identity of this man, only quite a dismissive style of commenting to posts of those who explore the issue in great detail.

 

I wish it were Oswald, but for it to be him then there needs to be this conspiracy carried out among not only the people who were standing there prior and post shooting, but also all those who filed past him. There had also been workers brought in to do some reconstruction in recent times if memory serves me correctly, so him being an unknown isn't a surprise to me. And the way he is dressed looks very similar to others who worked there based on what little can be seen from the images you have provided. And to be honest with you - if one must flip a coin just to know how the man is standing and yet see's him clear enough to now how he is dressed .... well that doesn't add up in my view.

So like I have said - to turn him into Oswald is to say that no one saw Lee because of some vast conspiracy that was already underfoot between the employees of the TSBD is like trying to sell a rubber beak to a woodpecker. It simply makes no sense. You can chase that theory all you like - I won't waste time giving it another thought. But good luck in your endeavor though. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

 

I wish it were Oswald, but for it to be him then there needs to be this conspiracy carried out among not only the people who were standing there prior and post shooting, but also all those who filed past him. There had also been workers brought in to do some reconstruction in recent times if memory serves me correctly, so him being an unknown isn't a surprise to me. And the way he is dressed looks very similar to others who worked there based on what little can be seen from the images you have provided. And to be honest with you - if one must flip a coin just to know how the man is standing and yet see's him clear enough to now how he is dressed .... well that doesn't add up in my view.

So like I have said - to turn him into Oswald is to say that no one saw Lee because of some vast conspiracy that was already underfoot between the employees of the TSBD is like trying to sell a rubber beak to a woodpecker. It simply makes no sense. You can chase that theory all you like - I won't waste time giving it another thought. But good luck in your endeavor though. 

Dear Bill,

The fact that no one on the steps remembers anyone's being there invalidates your argument, IMHO. In my mind there's not much difference between their not noticing / remembering a complete stranger and their not noticing / remembering a relative newcomer like Oswald, especially if the stranger or Oswald kinda snuck out the front door onto the landing right before the motorcade passed by. After the shots, people on the steps would have been even less likely to "see" him there because their attention would have been focused elsewhere.

And wasn't there one female TSBD employee who thought she mighta seen him kinda lurking in the lobby a few minutes before the assassination?

--  Tommy

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Thomas Graves