Guest Duncan MacRae

PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

1,094 posts in this topic

I doubt Duncan seriously believes PP is a woman.

Just sayin'

Finally someone with a lick of sense...

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Greg,

Please present 10 verifiable facts about the JFK assassination.

I'll present one: JFK was killed in Dallas on 11-22-63.

I ask you to present nine other such verifiable facts. Not opinions. Verifiable facts. Thanks.

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Greg,

Please present 10 verifiable facts about the JFK assassination.

This isn't the thread for that, Jon.

Yeah, but we need to do something with this thread. :P

(Sorry Duncan.... just jokin' around.)

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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  • · Prayer Person, the term should be accredited to you Duncan since you changed Ian Kingsbury’s thread ‘You Aint Got A Prayer Man’ to ‘Who Is Prayer Person’.
  • · Pauline Sanders is not to be considered a possibility, as she stated in CE 1381, she stood on the east end of the stairs, and Prayer Man (!) stands on the west end of the stairs, and she also stated that Sarah Stanton was standing next to her (Pat Speer please take note!)
  • · The images originate from CineCam, but are more than likely from video tape. NBC5 has only videotape of the films for duplication available for documentaries and the like. The artefacts seen as buttons by you are a prime example and have been debunked in my article: The Death of Prayer Woman.

· The First Impressions Chapter is filled to the brim with speculations and half-truths.

  • You assume Prayer Man is short in comparison to BWF (Frazier’s height does not give us any clue whatsoever with regards to Prayer Man’s height) and you fail to provide any real evidence for this. The option that Prayer Man is standing one step or perhaps even two steps below from where Frazier is standing does not apply for some reason to you, many members already debunked your method two years ago in the Bill Kelly thread Oswald Leaving the TSBD. Standing one or two steps below Frazier is more than likely since Prayer Man is most likely seen drinking from a bottle which is found on the stairs and seen in various photographs taken by William Allen.

The bottle in question is placed in a corner along with a lunch sack, one step below and it is highly unlikely anyone would place the bottle and sack one step below from where they would be standing whereas the same level makes a lot more sense, also take PM's physical position into consideration.

bottle-1.jpg

download%20vvv.jpg

Bottle_notes.jpg

Will%20Fritz%20leaving%20the%20TSBD.jpg

TSBD%20employees%20leaving.jpg

The bottle is still there when Fritz and the TSBD employees are leaving which is around 2PM, so the bottle has been there at least for 90 mins!

  • Your claim of: They simply want the mystery person to be OSWALD...AT ALL COST...regardless of the researchable evidence which strongly suggests otherwise

As a matter of fact the barrage of evidence available contradicts this statement no it actually destroys it, it shows that you are only going partially through all the available evidence. The Pauline Sanders testimony mentioned above is a great example. Further and more importantly is the fact that the photograph is the icing on the cake and not the primary piece that THAT is Lee Oswald. The photograph, a better copy if that, would merely confirm what is already known from the statements/testimonies/newspaper reports that Oswald was seen on the 1st floor just before and straight after the shooting. It is mind boggling how many people ,LNers and CTers, do not take the effort to read all the available material before blurting out their opinion(s).

  • John Mytton, a character who has been dead 200 hundred years, how can anyone take his ‘research’ seriously. People like him, Photon and Albert Doyle that hide behind (dead) people’s names are suspect. They are not allowed to post here so this begs the question are you allowed to intro their work here?

The graphics shown are without merit purely because of the ‘researcher’s name and as pointed out earlier the false assumption that Prayer Man is short, 5 ft 3”. A fantasy to say the least, you have nothing to show or proof that Prayer Man is standing on the top step / landing next to BWF. Your flash render of the colour photograph and the Darnell frame is based on nothing as well. Do you know the measurements of the steps? Has the Darnell shot and the colour shot been taken from the same vantage point? The metrics plastered in resemble your white arrows to point out bags and buttons without any proof nor is anything verifiable. This is just an opinion nothing more and is easily dismissed.

  • Your usage of the close-up Darnell frames has been debunked in my blogpost already (that it is from Sean Murphy means nothing either, it has been enlarged and possibly sharpened already), the adding of more sharpening, contrast and brightness doesn’t proof your case one bit.
  • ·Your claim of: Some researchers claim as a fact that Oswald is the mystery person, and that his hairline is clearly visible in any analysis. This is of course, complete nonsense is not true either, it is misleading, one example against your claim are Will Fritz’s notes, and go on then let’s add Harry D Holmes and James Bookhout’s statements as well while we are at it. This alone destroys your poor assumption. Oswald was out front with Bill Shelley!

· In the chapter Can the gender of the mystery person be determined?

-Item 1 is not true as I have already pointed out you have no basis for determining the height of Prayer Man and also has already been debunked two years ago.

-Item 2 doesn’t fare much better, you presume he has long hair but do not allow for the sweeping motion that the camera makes from left to right and back again, this is a vital element with regards to the blur and for the record have a look at his ear. If it happens to his ear, does this not happen to his hair?

-Item 3 The buttons, straight from lalaland, no evidence to back this up and again heavily (!!!) debunked in my piece The Death Of Prayer Woman already. The ‘buttons’ seem to appear everywhere in the overall Darnell shot. Just using a close-up and pointing this out is extremely misleading.

-Item 4 is without any foundation as well, pure speculation and above all Fetzerian thinking by you.

Your recap points fail as well, as per earlier statements made by me above.And I have been repeating myself 2 or 3x already

The photograph of Prayer Man is merely the icing on the cake.

Yes we do need a better image, and we are working hard on this, are you?

The majority of so called researchers in this matter don’t know the half of it, due to their blatant refusal to educate themselves about the many documents that show how much is being twisted for Oswald to be thrown under a bus. Read The Bill Kelly thread Oswald Leaving the TSBD for starters,

Sean Murphy’s research, Richard Hocking’s deductions, Greg Parker’s research (soon to be enjoyed here with his research paper!), Stan Dane’s book, my film Prayer Man More Than Just A Fuzzy Picture (and V2 is in the making!) and the book to follow show how high the possibility is that it was Lee Harvey Oswald who was standing on those steps and is Prayer Man.

I look forward seeing you debunk Greg’s piece.

That's a Dr. Pepper bottle on the steps.

Just curious: Was Billy Lovelady known to drink DP?

I have read that Dr. Pepper was Oswald's favorite soft drink ...

(Thanks for the images, Barto.)

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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No idea Tommy, a coke was the name referred to back then for a soda.

http://tastyresearch.com/2006/10/05/pop-vs-soda-vs-coke/

edit:

It is possible it is Lovelady's:

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?
Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Who was with you?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me
Mr. BALL - What was that last name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.
Mr. BALL - What is the first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.
Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?
Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Edited by Bart Kamp

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No idea Tommy, a coke was the name referred to back then for a soda.

http://tastyresearch.com/2006/10/05/pop-vs-soda-vs-coke/

edit:

It is possible it is Lovelady's:

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.

Mr. BALL - Upstairs on what floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.

Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Who was with you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me

Mr. BALL - What was that last name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton.

Mr. BALL - What is the first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name?

Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton.

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Barto,

Interesting. The fact that Lovelady got his "coke" from an upper floor, not the first floor or the basement. (If he's telling the truth, he must have been the second floor lunchroom.)

The Dr. Pepper machine was on the first floor. I don't think it was possible to get a DP from the second floor lunchroom. The machine in the lunchroom was a brand-name Coca-Cola with a capital "C" aka Coke machine.

218.+Second-Floor+Lunch+Room+(TSBD).jpg

The fact that the bottle on the steps was a Dr. Pepper bottle (I'm sure of it) would tend to support the conclusion that it was Oswald's.

--Tommy :sun

Edit: Note the Dr. Pepper machine to the left of the white refrigerator.

202.+CD496%3B+Photo+7+%28Dr.+Pepper+Mach

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I am inclined to go along with Dr. Pepper, the coke bottle then was shorter.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131675571695

$_1.JPG

I just realized that the couple of Dr. Pepper bottles in the Coca-Cola "empties" box in the second floor lunchroom must have been put there by people who had bought them on the first floor and then taken them up to the second floor to drink in the lunchroom.

D'oh.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I see several bottles up on Six, another on the steps,....hmm, none are a COKE.

Must have been a conspiracy against the Coca-Cola company!

Seriously even the cops are drinking Dr.Peppers!!

Sawyer_zpsgvx5ulxp.jpg
I think this was the first ever product placement in an assassination, and Coke wanted in on it!

Cheers! ~Ed

Edited by Ed LeDoux

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I see several bottles up on Six, another on the steps,....hmm, none are a COKE.

Must have been a conspiracy against the Coca-Cola company!

Seriously even the cops are drinking Dr.Peppers!!

Sawyer_zpsgvx5ulxp.jpg

I think this was the first ever product placement in an assassination, and Coke wanted in on it!

Cheers! ~Ed

Assassinations go better with Dr. Pepper?

(A question rather than a statement in order to avoid a lawsuit)

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Good one Tommy! And,

DRp_zpsywq9xdog.jpg

.....or 10 to 15 with good behavior...

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Good one Tommy! And,

DRp_zpsywq9xdog.jpg

.....or 10 to 15 with good behavior...

It's the picker-upper. I'll even slam you back into your seat!

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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"the Un-friendly Pepper-Upper,"

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Note the person who started the thread has edited all his posts out. I wonder why.

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