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PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD


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30 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Ray,

I understood it that the stairway was close to the Lunchroom and Baker merely used the stairway as a locator for the direction Oswald was walking away from. That was something that was important because had Lee of just ran down the stairs - he seemed rather calm and relaxed when Baker was studying his face,

That's exactly my point. You are reading into what Baker said about seeing a guy walking away from and turning back to him as being a guy behind a door with a window in it, behind which Baker saw him.It doesn't make sense. In Baker's first day affidavit, he mentions zilch about a doorway.

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2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

1. Bill Shelley saw Oswald on the first floor allegedly 10-15 minutes before 12, however, it would be later than this time because at that time Oswald was still on one of the upper floors:

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

2. Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the first floor vestibule at 12.15 or 12.25:

Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.

11/26/1963 at Dallas, Texas, File # DL 89–43, Special Agent Richard E. Harrison

3. Oswald's own report according to Bookhout and Hosty conjoint report, dated November 23.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=637

"OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. … he then went home by bus and changed his clothes. "

4. Cpt. Fritz testimony for the Warren Commission:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=624

"I asked him what part of the building was he in at the time the President was shot, and he said he was having his lunch about that time on the first floor".

5. Junior Jarman: confirmed that Oswald used to have his lunch on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over coffee table where they make coffee.
Mr. BALL - Is that the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - That is the first floor.

 

Then he surprisingly slipped the information that he was with Oswald on the first floor:

Mr. BALL - What time did you quit for lunch?
Mr. JARMAN - It was right about 5 minutes to 12.

....

Mr. BALL. Then what did you
Mr. JARMAN - Went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop.
Mr. BALL - Where is the lounge?
Mr. JARMAN - On the second floor.
Mr. BALL - On the second floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go after you got your soda pop?
Mr. JARMAN - Came back and went down to the window.
Mr. BALL - What window?
Mr. JARMAN - Where Oswald and I was talking.
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. JARMAN - Between those two rows of bins.
Mr. BALL - Where Oswald and you had been talking?
Mr. BALL - What did you do there?
Mr. JARMAN - I was eating part of my sandwich there, and then I came back out and as I was walking across the floor I ate the rest of it going toward the domino room.

Councel Ball must have been shaken by Junior's bold revelation and he wisely did not elaborate on that point but rather evaded. It went well according to the plan, with Jarman denying seeing Oswald and arguing with himself:

Mr. BALL - You say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were at the window? Did you talk to anybody?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I wasn't, I was trying to get through so I could get out on the street.
Mr. BALL - Did you see Lee Oswald?
Mr. JARMAN - No; I didn't.

6. Oswald saw Jarman and Norman as they returned from Elm via back door:

Cpt Fritz:  Oswald said he ate lunch with some of the colored boys who worked with him. One of them was called `Junior' and the other was a little short man whose name he didn't know".

FBI agent Bookhout:  "Oswald had eaten lunch in the lunchroom . . . alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called `Junior' and the other was a short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize"

SS Inspector Thomas Kelley:  "Said he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as `Junior,' a colored boy, and the other was a little short negro boy".

Now, these two men indeed were returning from Elm via back door. How could Owald know about these two men passing by if not sitting in the domino room?

7. Eddie Piper's testimony:

    Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him?
    Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o'clock.
    Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o'clock?
    Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
    Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up  or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.
    Mr. BALL. The first window on the first floor?

 

Andrej,

Every bit of this evidence you cited fails to reliably pinpoint Lee Harvey Oswald on the 1st floor after 12pm on 11/22/1963.

The 1st witness, Bill Shelley, told the WC he saw LHO on the first floor earlier than that.

The 2nd witness, Carolyn Arnold, in a DPD affidavit says she "thought" it was LHO, but "could not be sure."

The 3rd witness was FBI agent James Bookhout, who conspired with Captain Fritz to forge LHO's last words.

The 4th witness was DPD Captain Will Fritz, who conspired with Bookhout and m any others to forge LHO's last words.

The 5th witness, Junior Jarman, told the WC that he saw Oswald on the first floor earlier than that.

The 6th witness is really a composite of Fritz, Bookhout and Kelly, who worked to frame LHO as the "Lone Nut."

The 7th witness is Eddie Piper, who saw LHO "just at 12 o'clock."   Period.

YOU HAVE NO RELIABLE EVIDENCE, IMHO, THAT LHO WAS ON THE 1st FLOOR TSBD AFTER 12PM 11/22/1963.

The last people to see LHO *after* noon saw him on the 6th floor, as they raced the TSBD elevators down to the 1st floor.  LHO called out to them to send one of the elevators back.   That was that last time.

The next time anybody reliably reported seeing LHO was on the 2nd floor.  That was Officer Baker and Roy Truly.  They saw LHO together, and they confirm each other's testimony.  This was written in affidavits on 11/22/1963, and they had no time to invent a story, and also no motive.

CONCLUSION:  LHO was on the 6th floor of the TSBD until sometime after 12pm, when he took an elevator down to the 2nd floor lunch room, and ate his lunch there.   After eating his lunch, he bought a Coke.   At about 12:32 PM, Officer Baker yelled to LHO to come forward, and Baker pointed a gun at LHO's chest.  LHO approached Baker cool, calm and collected.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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41 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

That's exactly my point. You are reading into what Baker said about seeing a guy walking away from and turning back to him as being a guy behind a door with a window in it, behind which Baker saw him.It doesn't make sense. In Baker's first day affidavit, he mentions zilch about a doorway.

When have I ever seen a detailed affidavit - NEVER!  They just get a general statement from the witness. The way I see it - it would have made no difference had Baker of seen Oswald walking away from the steps and outside the door to the lunchroom Vs inside the door going into the lunchroom. So unless there is some difference that would make Lee look more innocent or guilty - I stand by my view that his testimony was more detailed and what happened. Not to mention that is what Truly said as well. Remember that when Truly came back to the second floor he heard voices and followed the sound to the lunchroom.

Edited by Bill Miller
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1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

I have never heard of Lee handing his gun over to anyone on the day of the assassination. Is that something you read in a conspiracy book?  If he had, then that would have been the first thing that came out of my mouth when in custody and yet it doesn't appear Lee did that. And again .... the rifle that was found on the sixth floor was one that was 4.2 inches longer than the one Lee had bought earlier in the year.

Bill,

That claim is by A.J. Weberman, in his NODULE series.   It comes from Gerry Patrick Hemming, who told Weberman that he called LHO on 11/21/1963 and offered him double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next day.

As for the identify of the rifle itself -- it hardly mattered.  Loran Hall was stopped on 11/22/1963 in Dallas with a rifle belonging to Gerry Patrick Hemming, and the FBI carefully investigated the chain of possession of that rifle.  You may be aware of this FBI case.  Gerry Patrick Hemming never spoke to Loran Hall again after that fiasco.  The two Cuba Raiders broke with that scandal.

IMHO, if LHO hadn't handed over his personal rifle, the JFK Kill Team could have blamed Gerry Patrick Hemming for the JFK murder.  The bullet fragments from the JFK limo could match bullets from hundreds of rifles.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

That claim is by A.J. Weberman, in his NODULE series.   It comes from Gerry Patrick Hemming, who told Weberman that he called LHO on 11/21/1963 and offered him double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next day.

As for the identify of the rifle itself -- it hardly mattered.  Loran Hall was stopped on 11/22/1963 in Dallas with a rifle belonging to Gerry Patrick Hemming, and the FBI carefully investigated the chain of possession of that rifle.  You may be aware of this FBI case.  Gerry Patrick Hemming never spoke to Loran Hall again after that fiasco.  The two Cuba Raiders broke with that scandal.

IMHO, if LHO hadn't handed over his personal rifle, the JFK Kill Team could have blamed Gerry Patrick Hemming for the JFK murder.  The bullet fragments from the JFK limo could match bullets from hundreds of rifles.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Had Lee of taken his rifle to sell to someone on the day of the assassination, then I see no reason why he just didn't say so to Buell Frazier. I often think there have been too many people adding details they know cannot be proven or disproven for what ever reason to get their 15 minutes of fame. For if Lee's rifle was used to frame Oswald, then why was not a 36" MC not left on the 6th floor and not the 40.2" rifles that were being sold the summer of 63.

As far the lead in the bullets - LIfton found the CIA order a vast amount of ammunition with the three MC's they purchased months before the assassination. So I have always believed there was a need to have lead fragments that were made from the same batch so to appear they all came from the same gun.

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14 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

Every bit of this evidence you cited fails to reliably pinpoint Lee Harvey Oswald on the 1st floor after 12pm on 11/22/1963.

The 1st witness, Bill Shelley, told the WC he saw LHO on the first floor earlier than that.

The 2nd witness, Carolyn Arnold, in a DPD affidavit says she "thought" it was LHO, but "could not be sure."

The 3rd witness was FBI agent James Bookhout, who conspired with Captain Fritz to forge LHO's last words.

The 4th witness was DPD Captain Will Fritz, who conspired with Bookhout and m any others to forge LHO's last words.

The 5th witness, Junior Jarman, told the WC that he saw Oswald on the first floor earlier than that.

The 6th witness is really a composite of Fritz, Bookhout and Kelly, who worked to frame LHO as the "Lone Nut."

The 7th witness is Eddie Piper, who saw LHO "just at 12 o'clock."   Period.

YOU HAVE NO RELIABLE EVIDENCE, IMHO, THAT LHO WAS ON THE 1st FLOOR TSBD AFTER 12PM 11/22/1963.

The last people to see LHO *after* noon saw him on the 6th floor, as they raced the TSBD elevators down to the 1st floor.  LHO called out to them to send one of the elevators back.   That was that last time.

The next time anybody reliably reported seeing LHO was on the 2nd floor.  That was Officer Baker and Roy Truly.  They saw LHO together, and they confirm each other's testimony.  This was written in affidavits on 11/22/1963, and they had no time to invent a story, and also no motive.

CONCLUSION:  LHO was on the 6th floor of the TSBD until sometime after 12pm, when he took an elevator down to the 2nd floor lunch room, and ate his lunch there.   After eating his lunch, he bought a Coke.   At about 12:32 PM, Officer Baker yelled to LHO to come forward, and Baker pointed a gun at LHO's chest.  LHO approached Baker cool, calm and collected.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul:

Oswald was on the fifth/sixth floor around 11.50 at which time he was abandoned by the floor laying crew. Thus, Shelley could only see him later than 11.50, after Oswald also came down.  Shelley for some reason mixed up his time estimate. This can happen, no big deal. The point is that Oswald came down to the first floor, and not to the second floor and staying only there.

Carolyne Arnold: what a brave lady she was. This was one of the most courageous witnesses.

Bookhout, Hosty and Fritz: well, you seem to see liars everywhere. You can disqualify any information using your method, basically ruining any chance to understand what happened. Their confirmation of Oswald's statement of his presence in the domino room would certainly not help them to make Oswald a lone nut. I miss a logical reason why would they want to falsify Oswald's statements about his presence in the first floor during the shooting.

Piper: you said Oswald took the elevator to get from the sixth floor to the second floor at which place he stayed for the entire period until his encounter with Officer Baker. However, Eddie saw him on the first floor at 12noon which means that Oswald did not do what you suggest.

You missed Oswald's sighting of Jarman and Norman who were passing by on their way from Elm to the fifth floor. Oswald could furnish this information only if he actually saw them, meaning he was on the first floor.

----------------

I know that the Baker-Oswald second floor encounter is a holly cow for many assassination researchers, something which is difficult to part with. However, it is basically re-experiencing the 2013 Prayer Man thread (around pages 5-15) in which several astute researchers were perplexed by Sean Murphy's burial of this holly cow. You may find those early pages in the main Prayer Man thread ("Oswald leaving ...") therapeutic.

 

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26 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Had Lee of taken his rifle to sell to someone on the day of the assassination, then I see no reason why he just didn't say so to Buell Frazier. I often think there have been too many people adding details they know cannot be proven or disproven for what ever reason to get their 15 minutes of fame. For if Lee's rifle was used to frame Oswald, then why was not a 36" MC not left on the 6th floor and not the 40.2" rifles that were being sold the summer of 63.

As far the lead in the bullets - LIfton found the CIA order a vast amount of ammunition with the three MC's they purchased months before the assassination. So I have always believed there was a need to have lead fragments that were made from the same batch so to appear they all came from the same gun.

Bill,

IMHO, you're missing the big picture here.  LHO was a clandestine mercenary for Guy Banister.  That didn't end when LHO went to Mexico.  LHO took with him to Mexico the very Fake ID newsclippings that Guy Banister took great care to create during August 1963, with the help of Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier.  That was Banister's mission.

LHO belonged to Guy Banister -- both in Mexico City and in Dallas immediately afterwards.

The mercenary mission -- as far as LHO knew it -- was to assassinate Fidel Castro.   LHO thought of himself as a future CIA agent.  Lying dogs in New Orleans had promised him this, on the rouse that they themselves were CIA agents -- namely -- David Ferrie, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin and Clay Shaw.   This probably included members of Interpen, like Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall as well.  

IMHO, all these mercenaries told LHO that they were CIA agents, and that if LHO played ball with them, that LHO would get a full-time job in the CIA.  This was his motivation.  LHO wanted to be in the CIA so bad he could taste it.

So, when Gerry Patrick Hemming offered LHO double the price of his MC rifle if he brought it to the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/1963 to hand it over -- it was not in the context of a simple gun sale.  It was a top-secret, clandestine, secret-handshake spy game that LHO had running in his mind, ever since New Orleans and Mexico City.  It was still going strong.

Finally as for the bullets -- I agree with you entirely.  The framing of LHO was arranged for MONTHS.   It was led by the Radical Right in Dallas, with the Radical Right in New Orleans as second in command.   That's my opinion.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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52 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

When have I ever seen a detailed affidavit - NEVER!  They just get a general statement from the witness. The way I see it - it would have made no difference had Baker of seen Oswald walking away from the steps and outside the door to the lunchroom Vs inside the door going into the lunchroom. So unless there is some difference that would make Lee look more innocent or guilty - I stand by my view that his testimony was more detailed and what happened. Not to mention that is what Truly said as well. Remember that when Truly came back to the second floor he heard voices and followed the sound to the lunchroom.

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT 
THE STATE OF TEXAS 
COUNTY OF DALLAS

BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

 

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan

Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

 

 

 My bolding. Note the  description of the man he saw. It doesn't match Oswald's description..

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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11 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

Oswald was on the fifth/sixth floor around 11.50 at which time he was abandoned by the floor laying crew. Thus, Shelley could only see him later than 11.50, after Oswald also came down.  Shelley for some reason mixed up his time estimate. This can happen, no big deal. The point is that Oswald came down to the first floor, and not to the second floor and staying only there.

Carolyne Arnold: what a brave lady she was. This was one of the most courageous witnesses.

Bookhout, Hosty and Fritz: well, you seem to see liars everywhere. You can disqualify any information using your method, basically ruining any chance to understand what happened. Their confirmation of Oswald's statement of his presence in the domino room would certainly not help them to make Oswald a lone nut. I miss a logical reason why would they want to falsify Oswald's statements about his presence in the first floor during the shooting.

Piper: you said Oswald took the elevator to get from the sixth floor to the second floor at which place he stayed for the entire period until his encounter with Officer Baker. However, Eddie saw him on the first floor at 12noon which means that Oswald did not do what you suggest.

You missed Oswald's sighting of Jarman and Norman who were passing by on their way from Elm to the fifth floor. Oswald could furnish this information only if he actually saw them, meaning he was on the first floor.

----------------

I know that the Baker-Oswald second floor encounter is a holly cow for many assassination researchers, something which is difficult to part with. However, it is basically re-experiencing the 2013 Prayer Man thread (around pages 5-15) in which several astute researchers were perplexed by Sean Murphy's burial of this holly cow. You may find those early pages in the main Prayer Man thread ("Oswald leaving ...") therapeutic.

Andrej,

I don't see liars everywhere -- only where they contradict themselves and are contradicted.

You choose to doubt Officer Baker and Roy Truly. 

I choose to doubt Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, Sorrels, Holmes, etc.  Nothing they said is viable.  Nothing at all.  Ultimately your case is based on their testimony, and they all lied their asses off.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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2 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

IMHO, you're missing the big picture here.  LHO was a clandestine mercenary for Guy Banister.  That didn't end when LHO went to Mexico.  LHO took with him the very Fake ID newsclippings that Guy Banister took great care to create during August 1963, with the help of Ed Butler and Carlos Bringuier. 

LHO belonged to Guy Banister -- both in Mexico City and in Dallas immediately afterwards.

The mercenary group -- as far as LHO knew it -- was to assassinate Fidel Castro.   LHO thought of himself as a future CIA agent.  Lying dogs in New Orleans had promised him this, on the rouse that they themselves were CIA agents -- namely -- David Ferrie, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin and Clay Shaw.   This probably included members of Interpen, like Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall as well.  

IMHO, all these mercenaries told LHO that they were CIA agents, and that if LHO played ball with them, that LHO would get a full-time job in the CIA.  This was his motivation.  LHO wanted to be in the CIA so bad he could taste it.

So, when Gerry Patrick Hemming offered LHO double the price of his MC rifle if he brought it to the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/1963 to hand it over -- it was not in the context of a simple gun sale.  It was a top-secret, clandestine, secret-handshake spy game that LHO had running in his mind, ever since New Orleans and Mexico City.  It was still going strong.

Finally as for the bullets -- I agree with you entirely.  The framing of LHO was arranged for MONTHS.   It was led by the Radical Right in Dallas, with the Radical Right in New Orleans as second in command.   That's my opinion.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I am aware of Lee's time in New Orleans and the people he associated with. Lee still could have told Buell Frazier he was selling his gun to someone instead of making up a curtain rod story. The sale of the gun to who and for how much wasn't anyone's business, so I still have reservations that couldn't have just said he had sold his gun. After all - he could sold it on a street corner to a stranger and it would have been legal.

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9 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Andrej,

I don't see liars everywhere -- only where they contradict themselves and are contradicted.

You choose to doubt Officer Baker and Roy Truly. 

I choose to doubt Fritz, Bookhout, Hosty, Sorrels, Holmes, etc.  Nothing they said is viable.  Nothing at all.  Ultimately your case is based on their testimony, and they all lied their asses off.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I agree .... Truly could have just as easily said that Lee was confronted by the Police Officer on the first floor and there would be no difference than the second floor confrontation.  But he didn't because it never happened. Baker came through the door looking for an elevator and ended up having to take the stairs. No witness ever said that Baker met Oswald on the first floor. Nor was Oswald seen sliding out the front door so to stand by Buell Frazier. The first floor nonsense is to get Oswald in position to be Prayer Man which Lee was too small to be in the first place in my view.

Edited by Bill Miller
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16 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

I am aware of Lee's time in New Orleans and the people he associated with. Lee still could have told Buell Frazier he was selling his gun to someone instead of making up a curtain rod story. The sale of the gun to who and for how much wasn't anyone's business, so I still have reservations that couldn't have just said he had sold his gun. After all - he could sold it on a street corner to a stranger and it would have been legal.

Bill,

There's more to the psychology of Lee Harvey Oswald and his secret mind-games.  LHO probably knew that Frazier was infatuated by him -- and LHO exploited this for his personal advantage -- free rides.  LHO never offered Frazier a nickel for any of the gas or rides he enjoyed.  LHO also said almost nothing to Frazier about anything.  They would have a little small talk about the weather and about his babies -- but that's it.   Almost no conversation.   This was LHO's modus operandi.

The WC testimony of Buell Frazier bears this out.

Also, LHO told Marina Oswald almost nothing about his secret political games.  He did blurt out one night that he took a pot-shot at General Walker -- he could not resist the boast -- but that was it.   Even when LHO demanded that Marina take one photograph of him with his weapons, all dressed in black, he refused to tell Marina why he demanded it.

Marina knew almost nothing of what LHO did, or who he knew, or where he went for four full months in 1963 when he was unemployed, and yet left the house every day.

Ruth Paine knew less than Marina did.   And yet the WC questioned Marina Oswald and Ruth Paine far more than any other two witnesses in the WC volumes.

CONCLUSION:  LHO enjoyed keeping people in the dark.  LHO enjoyed keeping Buell Frazier in the dark.  It was part of LHO's psychology.  That's my opinion.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul - Lee and Buell were basically neighbors so I can see Buell not charging him to ride along. I had a similar circumstance where I had a buddy ride with me to work and I had to pick him up a block or so away and not once did I ask him to pay and when he offered I declined on the grounds that his riding with me didn't cost me a cent more having him along as not. And in as much as I liked fishing with him when ever we could go - I was not infatuated with him. So I understand what you are saying - I just don't see it like you do for the reasons you gave.

Edited by Bill Miller
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21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

I agree .... Truly could have just as easily said that Lee was confronted by the Police Officer on the first floor and there would be no difference than the second floor confrontation.  But he didn't because it never happened. Baker came through the door looking for an elevator and ended up having to take the stairs. No witness ever said that Baker met Oswald on the first floor. Nor was Oswald seen sliding out the front door so to stand by Buell Frazier. The first floor nonsense is to get Oswald in position to be Prayer Man which Lee was too small to be in the first place in my view.

Bill:

Mr. Truly could not say that Lee Harvey Oswald was approached by Officer Baker on the first floor. This is the point. If he would admit this, Lee Harvey Oswald could not be the assassin because he would not have time to run down to meet Baker who has just entered the first floor. That would be a killer blow to the lone nut theory which started to shape very early on (actually, it was prepared before the act). Truly and Baker were forced to lie. Gerald Ford lied by moving the back wound from a thoracic level to the neck. If this wound would stay where it really was, the lone nut theory would be gone. Moving the first floor encounter to the second floor was a similar necessity. Only the second floor offered the benefit of uncertainty as to where people could come from. This was the reason for selecting the second floor as their meeting point. Please note that moving the encounter from the first to the second floor allowed to keep certain features as if it were the truth: the "vestibule", the words used, the Coke, and the rest of Baker-Truly trip to the upper floors (I hope I will not be accused of plagiarism since I am only repeating Sean Murphy's comments).  

I have explained and documented the witnesses roles and possibilities in several posts, including some quite dramatic video recordings of interrogations. The men who stood on the top landing and saw Oswald in the doorway were immediately taken to the police headquarters. Ladies were offered a bail-out in the sense that there will be an (unsigned?) FBI report and no one will ever call them again. Did you watch Serrano's interrogation in the matter of her sighting of the Polka dot dress lady? Exactly this type of offer Serrano received, and she then kept silence for more than 40 years.

And yes, Oswald's whereabouts on the first floor have to do with him being Prayer Man. These are the high-voltage issues, and they can bring down the lone nut version of events. 

As to your beliefs and height and weight impressions: no one cares what you believe, only that we are polite at this Forum and better ignore such empty comments of yours. 

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Bill:

Mr. Truly could not say that Lee Harvey Oswald was approached by Officer Baker on the first floor. This is the point. If he would admit this, Lee Harvey Oswald could not be the assassin because he would not have time to run down to meet Baker who has just entered the first floor. That would be a killer blow to the lone nut theory which started to shape very early on (actually, it was prepared before the act). Truly and Baker were forced to lie. Gerald Ford lied by moving the back wound from a thoracic level to the neck. If this wound would stay where it really was, the lone nut theory would be gone. Moving the first floor encounter to the second floor was a similar necessity. Only the second floor offered the benefit of uncertainty as to where people could come from. This was the reason for selecting the second floor as their meeting point. Please note that moving the encounter from the first to the second floor allowed to keep certain features as if it were the truth: the "vestibule", the words used, the Coke, and the rest of Baker-Truly trip to the upper floors (I hope I will not be accused of plagiarism since I am only repeating Sean Murphy's comments).  

I have explained and documented the witnesses roles and possibilities in several posts, including some quite dramatic video recordings of interrogations. The men who stood on the top landing and saw Oswald in the doorway were immediately taken to the police headquarters. Ladies were offered a bail-out in the sense that there will be an (unsigned?) FBI report and no one will ever call them again. Did you watch Serrano's interrogation in the matter of her sighting of the Polka dot dress lady? Exactly this type of offer Serrano received, and she then kept silence for more than 40 years.

And yes, Oswald's whereabouts on the first floor have to do with him being Prayer Man. These are the high-voltage issues, and they can bring down the lone nut version of events. 

As to your beliefs and height and weight impressions: no one cares what you believe, only that we are polite at this Forum and better ignore such empty comments of yours.

To start with - I have studied the RFK assassination from top to bottom and I was aware of the way Serrano was brow beaten to change her story about the woman in the polka dotted dress ... that doesn't mean Truly and Baker got the same done to them. And if Baker and Truly were pressured to lie about their meeting with Oswald, then why not have Lee out of breath and looking nervous. Instead they described a man who didn't appear to have just made record time getting to the second floor lunchroom from just being on the 6th.

Furthermore - supposed you tell me exactly how much longer would it have taken Oswald to descend down one more flight of stairs - 2secs - 3secs ???  I'm 59 years old and I could do it in 3secs ... probably could about get it down below 2secs back in the day that I was in my mid-20's. 

I personally think you are reaching when trying to make Oswald out to be Prayer Man. Who ever Prayer Man was - he was standing with Frazier - Lovelady - Molinda - Shelley - etc., when Wiegman started filming and not on the first or second floor.

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Edited by Bill Miller
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