PRAYER PERSON - PRAYER MAN OR PRAYER WOMAN? RESEARCH THREAD

[Ray Mitcham]

Ray Mitcham- Perhaps whoever believes the sun is striking PM's hand can explain the considerable difference in the RGB values.

Ray,

PM's forearm and hand are being illuminated by indirect sunlight. From a diffuse (non-pointlike) source such as the sun, a distinct intermediate zone- a sliver- between direct sun & deep shadow will impact the target. Like the penumbra during a lunar eclipse. There is a gradient of brightness across the width of this sliver.

In the Wiegman gif the hand begins within this sliver and, during the motion, its brightness barely increases (to the naked eye)- this means that the hand remains the same (very small) distance from the direct sun. But the brightness of the forearm increases dramatically- it begins near the far edge of this sliver and ends at very nearly the same very small distance from the direct sun as the hand. So the overall hand-forearm motion is akin to a puppeteer, holding the hand-string still, but lifting the forearm-string.

An intermediate sliver is a handy concept for Wiegman, since the shadows grow very deep very suddenly as you look into the alcove's west corner. Yet Darnell shows how scattered & reflected light modestly illuminates that corner- inside the lobby we get almost none, and it's impressive that the white radiator (highly-reflective) has been found. But the concept of an intermediate sliver doesn't apply as readily to Darnell- his film stock was evidently better at capturing low light levels. Although it's basically just a definition of convenience, imagining a 4-inch-wide intermediate sliver in Wiegman transfers over to Darnell (where it's not visibly obvious).

So we agree that PP's arm is not in direct sunlight.

What I have been saying all along. Glad you agree.

[Andrej Stancak]

Please find here my final solution of Prayer Man’s location in the doorway. Previous researchers have correctly pointed out that Prayer Man size 5’9’’ would be too tall to stand on the top landing of the doorway. This problem led to alternative solutions involving e.g., placing a female figure 5’3’’ on Prayer Man’s place. However, my 3D model of the doorway suggests that Prayer Man sized 5’9’’ could actually stand close to the western wall as seen in Darnell’s stills.

The following assumptions were applied:

Frazier:

1. Being 6’ tall.

2. Standing on the top landing

3. The left vertical rail of the middle door pane crossed Frazier’s body in the posterior part of his head.

4. Frazier had his head in the shadow. The shadow seems to touch also his shoulders.

Prayer Man:

1. Being 5’9’’ tall.

2. Standing close to the western wall, with his head and trunk in the shadow.

3.The back of Prayer Man’s right hand reflects the sun light.

4. Prayer Man’s hands are flexed in elbow joints and form a prayer gesture.

5. The top of Prayer Man’s aligns with Frazier’s neck.

6. The vertical corner rail of the door frame crosses Prayer Man’s head and body.

The figure below shows a cropped view of Darnell’s scene (top panel), and the 3D model of the doorway with the proposed solution. The posture of Prayer Man's left leg is optional; I was able to assume two or three different poses with my right leg one step below the left leg.

To verify the one-foot-down-one-foot-up solution, the next figure shows both doorways with guidelines and symbols. The five blue vertical lines starting in Darnell’s doorway extend to the 3D model to show that both doorways are satisfactorily aligned. The SketchupPro “lens” is different from the lens in Darnell’s camera and therefore, both views show few minute differences. The green horizontal line connects the top of Prayer Man’s head and Frazier’s neck in both pictures. The three vertical yellow bars are of identical lengths in both pictures and illustrate that the distance from Prayer Man’s head to the main horizontal rail of the glass door was the same in both pictures. Finally, the red square next to Prayer Man’s right elbow illustrates the distance between the edge of the red brick column and the elbow. Again, the square is of identical size in both pictures.

To sum up, the one-foot-down-one-foot-up solution is a plausible solution which installs Prayer Man, a man 5’9’’, into the doorway in such a way that his figure matches well the figure of Prayer Man in Darnell’s stills. Please note that Prayer Man's pose chosen here is one of few possible variations of the one-foot-u-one-foot-down posture.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Andrej Stancak

[Ray Mitcham]

Please find here my final solution of Prayer Man’s location in the doorway. Previous researchers have correctly pointed out that Prayer Man size 5’9’’ would be too tall to stand on the top landing of the doorway. This problem led to alternative solutions involving e.g., placing a female figure 5’3’’ on Prayer Man’s place. However, my 3D model of the doorway suggests that Prayer Man sized 5’9’’ could actually stand close to the western wall as seen in Darnell’s stills.

The following assumptions were applied:

Frazier:

1. Being 6’ tall.

2. Standing on the top landing

3. The left vertical rail of the middle door pane crossed Frazier’s body in the posterior part of his head.

4. Frazier had his head in the shadow. The shadow seems to touch also his shoulders.

Prayer Man:

1. Being 5’9’’ tall.

2. Standing close to the western wall, with his head and trunk in the shadow.

3.The back of Prayer Man’s right hand reflects the sun light.

4. Prayer Man’s hands are flexed in elbow joints and form a prayer gesture.

5. The top of Prayer Man’s aligns with Frazier’s neck.

6. The vertical corner rail of the door frame crosses Prayer Man’s head and body.

The figure below shows a cropped view of Darnell’s scene (top panel), and the 3D model of the doorway with the proposed solution. The posture of Prayer Man's left leg is optional; I was able to assume two or three different poses with my right leg one step below the left leg.

To verify the one-foot-down-one-foot-up solution, the next figure shows both doorways with guidelines and symbols. The five blue vertical lines starting in Darnell’s doorway extend to the 3D model to show that both doorways are satisfactorily aligned. The SketchupPro “lens” is different from the lens in Darnell’s camera and therefore, both views show few minute differences. The green horizontal line connects the top of Prayer Man’s head and Frazier’s neck in both pictures. The three vertical yellow bars are of identical lengths in both pictures and illustrate that the distance from Prayer Man’s head to the main horizontal rail of the glass door was the same in both pictures. Finally, the red square next to Prayer Man’s right elbow illustrates the distance between the edge of the red brick column and the elbow. Again, the square is of identical size in both pictures.

To sum up, the one-foot-down-one-foot-up solution is a plausible solution which installs Prayer Man, a man 5’9’’, into the doorway in such a way that his figure matches well the figure of Prayer Man in Darnell’s stills. Please note that Prayer Man's pose chosen here is one of few possible variations of the one-foot-u-one-foot-down posture.

Seems to meet all of the necessary criteria, Andrej.

[Richard Gilbride]

Andrej,

You are making a systemic error, presuming that your one-foot-down-one-foot-up graphic represents the 5'9" Oswald. The step is 7-1/2" high, so to conclude that your graphic represents the 5'9" Oswald, you are required to demonstrate a relation between Frazier & Oswald that shows the Darnell "Oswald" is only 5' 1-1/2" above the landing.

Not just a relation between PrayerMan and his vertical strip, and between Frazier and his vertical strip. You are claiming "Oswald" is only 5' 1-1/2" above the landing, with no basis for comparison- just your say-so.

Would you not object if I claimed "Oswald" was one step down, and actually 6' 4-1/2"?

[Andrej Stancak]

Andrej,

You are making a systemic error, presuming that your one-foot-down-one-foot-up graphic represents the 5'9" Oswald. The step is 7-1/2" high, so to conclude that your graphic represents the 5'9" Oswald, you are required to demonstrate a relation between Frazier & Oswald that shows the Darnell "Oswald" is only 5' 1-1/2" above the landing.

Not just a relation between PrayerMan and his vertical strip, and between Frazier and his vertical strip. You are claiming "Oswald" is only 5' 1-1/2" above the landing, with no basis for comparison- just your say-so.

Would you not object if I claimed "Oswald" was one step down, and actually 6' 4-1/2"?

Dear Richard,

thanks for your comments. I hope to be able to clarify few points. First, I can confirm both measures you mention in your post, the height of the step and the 5'1'' distance from the top landing to Frazier's neck line in Darnell's scene. However, this latter figure is relative and depends both on the relative heights of the two people (minus the height of the step) and also on the view angle. The distance of 5'1'' would not hold if Darnell's view angle (elevation) would be different. The figure below illustrates the problem. It shows Prayer Man and Frazier as in Darnell scene from the front view. In A, the view angle is from the bottom. The line crossing Frazier's left shoulder and neck crosses Prayer Man's eyes. The heads of both figures overlap with the horizontal rail. In B, the view angle is also from the bottom but less sharp than in A and therefore the heads of these two people no more overlap with the horizontal rail. In C, the view angle is flat and the line crossing Frazier's shoulder now aligns with the top of Prayer Man's head. In D, the view is from the above the doorway and the line crossing Frazier's shoulder is above Prayer Man's head.

Thus, the figure of 5'1'' has no specific significance and it is tightly related to the view angle applied by Darnell and his camera. The only chance to verify the location of Prayer Man in the 3D model against Darnell's picture is to co-register both doorways in 2D, which I have done and showed using the vertical blue lines and the yellow rectangles (to show that both doorways also fit vertically).

As per your last comment about Prayer Man standing actually two steps down and the alignment with Frazier's neck line being compensated by increasing his height to 6'4'' (194 cm), here I would certainly object. Such a giant Prayer Man could not satisfy all the stringent constrains derived from Darnell's picture. The giant Prayer Man could reach with his head to Frazier's neck line, he would also be aligned with the corner rail, however, his trunk and face would be exposed to the sun which we know was not true. Well, I can push this giant man closer to the western wall to escape being hit by the sun. Unfortunately, in such a case his body would no more align with the corner rail of the door frame (bottom panel in the figure below).

I hope I was able to address all your concerns. Once we apply some empirical assumptions (derived from Darnell's picture), there is not much freedom in how to fit Prayer Man into the doorway. Prayer Man could not be on the top platform with both his feet, and he could not be two steps down (a giant Prayer Man), he could only be on the first step with only one foot. I can also prepare some views of Prayer Woman of 5'3''. As Prayer Woman, due to her small size, would be on the top landing, she would also be almost on one line with Frazier, which means that the rotation effect shown in my previous picture would not apply to her, and she would indeed need to measure only 5'1''. I can also put a purse into her hands, however, I do not know what to think then about the Wiegman scene in which we see Prayer Man lifting his arm as if drinking. Could a lady 5'1'' holding a purse be drinking as Prayer Man does in Wiegman?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Andrej Stancak

[Ray Mitcham]

Seventh riser 7 1/4"

Sixth riser 7 1/4"

Fifth riser 7 1/4"

Fourth riser 7 1/8"

Third riser 7 1/4"

Second riser 7 1/8"

Bottom riser 6 1/4"

The horizontal distance of lip the top step to the lip of the bottom step is 72 11/16"

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ray Mitcham

[Andrej Stancak]

To illustrate the situation in the doorway based on my 3D reconstruction, I have prepared few more pictures.

A detailed view of Darnell's scene:

Detail in front view:

Full front view:

Back view of Frazier and Prayer Man:

[Ray Mitcham]

Andrej, why have you shown part of the hand in sunlight when the Darnell photo doesn't show that?

[Andrej Stancak]

Finally, let us approximate Frazier's location during the shooting by checking his visibility in Altgens6. Should Frazier stand on the same spot as we see him in Darnell's picture, he would actually be partly visible in Altgens6, which is demonstrated in the first figure. The blue plane stands for Altgens6 plane. Please note that a part of Frazier's left shoulder and arm are in the visible space.

Frazier was moved slightly towards the glass door in such a way that his left arm just does not touch the Altgens6 plane, which is illustrated in the next picture.

So, we have two Fraziers. The one in the front would be visible in Altgens6, and the one behind just not.

And here is the front view of Darnell's scene adjusted to ensure Frazier's invisibility in Altgens6.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Andrej Stancak

[Ray Mitcham]

Finally, let us approximate Frazier's location during the shooting by checking his visibility in Altgens6. Should Frazier stand on the same spot as we see him in Darnell's picture, he would actually be partly be visible in Altgens6, which is demonstrates in the first figure. The blue plane stands for Altgens6 plane. Please note that a part of Frazier's left shoulder and arm are in the visible space.

Frazier was moved slightly towards the glass door in such a way that his left arm just does not touch the Altgens6 plane, which is illustrated in the next picture.

So, we have two Fraziers. The one in the front would be visible in Altgens6, and the one behind just not.

And here is the front view of Darnell's scene adjusted to ensure Frazier's invisibility in Altgens6.

Thanks for the reply, Andrej.

Just as a matter of interest, what front to back measurement of the landing in front of the door are you using in your model?

[Andrej Stancak]

Andrej, why have you shown part of the hand in sunlight when the Darnell photo doesn't show that?

Dear Ray:

I think that Prayer Man's right hand was hit by the sun light on a very small spot, and due to natural blurring of the picture (distance, resolution, film material) this small bright spot got averaged with the darker part of the rest of his hand, causing the hand looking brighter than the forearm.

It is possible to bend Prayer's Man right hand so that it does not create an angle after moving his left forearm further away from the right hand. Prayer Man would stay on the same spot as you can see him now and the adjustment in the wrist joint would cause his right hand being also in the shadow. I am leaving things as they are though because I believe there was some light reflection from Prayer Man's right hand. The difference between the hand reflecting the sun and not is maybe one inch displacement of the hand, not of the whole Prayer Man.

[Andrej Stancak]

Dear Ray:

the front-to-back dimension of the top landing in my model is 3'6'' 15.

[Ray Mitcham]

Dear Ray:

the front-to-back dimension of the top landing in my model is 3'6'' 15.

Thanks Andrej.

According to the W.C. scale drawing the distance from the front of the bottom step to the doorway is about 11'6" (Plan view)

As the distance covered by the steps is 6'0" that means that the top landing should be about 5'6"

What was the source of your 3'6"measurement?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ray Mitcham

[Andrej Stancak]

Dear Ray:

the sources for my model were numerous photographs and films of the doorway and the Depository, mostly those available from the JFK Assassination Gallery and Mary Ferrell website. I have also analysed the WC drawing but did not find it too useful. It took me about 4 months to create and check the model. I am not sure I would be able to undertake this project once more...

[Ray Mitcham]

Cheers, Andrej. You can see that if the top landing was deeper than you have calculated, it could make a huge difference to where PP or BWF could be.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Ray Mitcham