Re-Post from ROKC: re Baker entering TSBD

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Between the light poles" and "150 (?) from the TSBD"

Interesting way to locate a witness. She could not have been too far down Elm St. if she was able to get behind the retaining wall so quickly.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

Double post

--Tommy

Edited January 25, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/25/2016 at 1:47 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 1/25/2016 at 1:33 AM, Robert Prudhomme said:

"Between the light poles" and "150 (?) from the TSBD"

Interesting way to locate a witness. She could not have been too far down Elm St. if she was able to get behind the retaining wall so quickly.

Hi Bob,

1 ) The author of the article was talking about a group of witnesses who were "between the light poles" on Elm Street, as opposed two two other groups of witnesses who were "near the Stemmon's Freeway sign," and "half way to the overpass," respectively The task for us, Bobby, is to find this group of five white witnesses who were standing between the light poles and which group was comprised of ladies Clay, Hendrix, Williams, Dickerson, and, of course, our Peggy Joyce Hawkins (and her four-year-old son, John).

2 ) Peggy Joyce Hawkin's husband's co-workers said they were standing on Elm Street, "about 150 feet west from the TSBD entrance," in their FBI statements.

And here's another clue for you, Bobby: Peggy Joyce Hawkins said in her FBI statement that the President's car was less than 50 feet from her when he was shot.

What do you take to mean by "the retaining wall"?

Where was "the retaining wall"?

Could "retaining wall" have been Mrs. Hawkins' expression for the concrete structure up on the Grassy Knoll?

Please note the ladies and the boy in the bottom photo. No, I'm anything about Calvery here...

Come to think of it, the "retaining wall" must have been pretty darn tall for her to think it would provide her and her son protection from gunfire. Or did she and her son "hit the ground" behind some little knee-high thang much closer to the TSBD, instead?

--Tommy

edited and bumped for Robert Prudhomme

Edit: This illustration shows the placement of the two street lights on Elm Street.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/plazao.jpg

Edited March 3, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

If she was between the light poles, as we see them in the drawing you linked to, we should be able to find her, either in a Zapruder still or one of the photos of that area.

I would tend to think she would be closer to the TSBD entrance. The retaining wall runs from the pergola all the way up to the concrete pillar next to the concrete island, as seen in the drawing you linked to. It is lowest near the island, and she could have jumped over it. Or, she may have considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall, and simply ducked behind it.

It is interesting that you pointed out, in the post-assassination still of Calvery, Hicks and Reed, that there is a small person standing with three ladies in the background of this photo, over near the pergola. However, as Mrs. Hawkins' child was only four years old, and this person is easily up to the shoulders of the three ladies, I think this person might be a bit big for a normal four year old.

Edit; It just occurred to me that the traffic light pole on the island might be considered one of the poles, placing her much closer to the TSBD, and out of Zapruder's camera's view.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

If she was between the light poles, as we see them in the drawing you linked to, we should be able to find her, either in a Zapruder still or one of the photos of that area.

I would tend to think she would be closer to the TSBD entrance. The retaining wall runs from the pergola all the way up to the concrete pillar next to the concrete island, as seen in the drawing you linked to. It is lowest near the island, and she could have jumped over it. Or, she may have considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall, and simply ducked behind it.

It is interesting that you pointed out, in the post-assassination still of Calvery, Hicks and Reed, that there is a small person standing with three ladies in the background of this photo, over near the pergola. However, as Mrs. Hawkins' child was only four years old, and this person is easily up to the shoulders of the three ladies, I think this person might be a bit big for a normal four year old.

Edit; It just occurred to me that the traffic light pole on the island might be considered one of the poles, placing her much closer to the TSBD, and out of Zapruder's camera's view.

Hi Bob!

What we have to go on is that the ladies in her group said that they were standing on Elm Street, about 150 feet west of the TSBD entrance.

We also must bear in mind that Mrs. Hawkins herself said the President's car was less than 50 feet from her when he was shot. I presume that she's talking about the first shot that hit JFK and caused him to clutch at his throat with both hands. This first hit seems to correlate with Z-190. http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/bj190.pdf

Karan Hicks said the limo was directly in front of her when the first shot rang out (22H, 650; CE 1381).

Since Karan Hicks was standing very near the Stemmons Freeway sign (as shown in the Zapruder film and other films / photographs), Hawkins must have been standing about 40 feet up the street from her (and "Calvary" and Reed).

--Tommy

PS You say, "I would tend to think [Hawkins] would be closer to the TSBD entrance." Closer than what, Bob? Closer than about 150 feet to the west of it? That's not close enough for your theory-in-progress to work?

And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?

How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene.

And what about those street lights? The two most obvious ones are the ones visible in the illustration I posted, aren't they? I mean, they're not hidden by a bunch of oak trees, nor are they masquerading as a traffic signal / traffic sign. Bear in mind that hard Hat Man Millican was standing near the upper of the two street lights I'm talking about, and that he was captured in Altgens 6 with a bunch Black women lining the sidewalk between him and the "island" on the corner. So white Hawkins and her group of white lady friends must have been down the sidewalk (you know, in the direction of the Trip;e Underpass) from Millican, and unfortunately were not "captured" in Croft's famous photograph.

In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

If she was between the light poles, as we see them in the drawing you linked to, we should be able to find her, either in a Zapruder still or one of the photos of that area.

I would tend to think she would be closer to the TSBD entrance. The retaining wall runs from the pergola all the way up to the concrete pillar next to the concrete island, as seen in the drawing you linked to. It is lowest near the island, and she could have jumped over it. Or, she may have considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall, and simply ducked behind it.

It is interesting that you pointed out, in the post-assassination still of Calvery, Hicks and Reed, that there is a small person standing with three ladies in the background of this photo, over near the pergola. However, as Mrs. Hawkins' child was only four years old, and this person is easily up to the shoulders of the three ladies, I think this person might be a bit big for a normal four year old.

Edit; It just occurred to me that the traffic light pole on the island might be considered one of the poles, placing her much closer to the TSBD, and out of Zapruder's camera's view.

Hi Bob!

What we have to go on is that the ladies in Mrs. Hawkins' group said that they were standing on Elm Street, about 150 feet west of the TSBD entrance.

We also must bear in mind that Mrs. Hawkins herself said the President's car was less than 50 feet from her when he was shot. I presume that she's talking about the first shot that hit JFK and caused him to clutch at his throat with both hands. This first hit seems to correlate with Z-190. http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/bj190.pdf

Karan Hicks said the limo was directly in front of her when the first shot rang out (22H, 650; CE 1381).

Since Karan Hicks was standing very near the Stemmons Freeway sign (as shown in the Zapruder film and other films / photographs), Hawkins must have been standing about 40 feet up the street from Hicks (and "Calvary" and Reed).

--Tommy

PS You say, "I would tend to think [Hawkins] would be closer to the TSBD entrance." Closer than what, Bob? Closer than about 150 feet to the west of it? That's not close enough for your theory-in-progress to work?

And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?

How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene.

And what about those street lights? The two most obvious ones are the ones visible in the illustration I posted, aren't they? I mean, they're not hidden by a bunch of oak trees, nor are they masquerading as a traffic signal / traffic sign. Bear in mind that hard Hat Man Millican was standing near the upper of the two street lights I'm talking about, and that he was captured in Altgens 6 with a bunch Black women lining the sidewalk between him and the "island" on the corner. So Caucasian Hawkins and her four white lady friends (making a group of five white females, altogether, plus Hawkins' four-year-old son) must have been down the sidewalk (you know, in the direction of the Trip;e Underpass?) from Millican, and unfortunately were not "captured" in Croft's famous photograph, nor in Altgens 6.

In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks.

Augmented yet again and bumped for Bobby Prudhomme.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Peggy Joyce Hawkins' maiden name was Peggy Joyce Bibler, born in Scottsville, Arkansas on September 6, 1934.

Her photograph is in this 1956 college yearbook:

http://library.atu.edu/research/Agricola/PDF/1954-03.pdf

--Tommy

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Good find Tommy!

[Thomas Graves]

Good find Tommy!

Thanks, Barto, And thanks for isolating her photo and posting it here. I don't know how to do that. BTW, I noticed that her future husband, John Hawkins, is in there, too. Also a sophomore.

--Tommy

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

John Hawkins

Edited January 26, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Guest]

Peggy on the so called roll call sheet

And Robert Mac Neil who saw no coppers inside the TSBD while making a call at 12:36, so either Truly and Baker already had gone up the stairs or....their powwow outside continued.

But I find that somewhat hard to believe, as there is no statement that points that way.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Robert Prudhomme]

From Thomas Graves:

"In the Willis photo, below, disregard the circled-in-red "Black Dog Man" for the moment, but please do note blond-haired Karan Hicks standing "under" the Stemmons Freeway sign, between Carolyn Reed and "Gloria Calvary." Peggy Joyce Hawkins was probably 40 feet up the sidewalk from Hicks."

By "up the sidewalk", I assume you mean toward the TSBD entrance. This would place Hawkins and her four year old child between "Gloria Calvery" and A.J. Millican, who is standing near the easternmost lamp post.

Unless I misinterpreted you, and you meant that Hawkins was closer to the TUP than Calvery, we should be able to see Ms. Hawkins in Don Roberdeau's Zapruder still, seen below:

Now, this may seem strange, and I'll be damned if I can see it now but, I seem to recall a post on this forum, from a long time ago, about observing the movements of a small child next to one of the women numbered and labelled here. Is it possible Gloria Calvery is not the only misidentified person in this photo?

"And what makes you think that "the retaining wall" Hawkins took refuge behind was the short wall across Elm Street Extension from the TSBD? Because it "works" with your theory-in-progress?"

Uh, no, Thomas, I think it has more to do with there being only one retaining wall in that immediate area.

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene."

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop?

"

[Thomas Graves]

Good find Tommy!

Thanks, Barto, And thanks for isolating her photo and posting it here. I don't know how to do that. BTW, I noticed that her future husband, John Hawkins, is in there, too. Also a sophomore.

--Tommy

PS It looks like she eventually went by the name Joyce Bibler Hawkins, and her husband's full name was John Henry Hawkins.

http://media.iadsnetwork.com/edition/1228/9931/a57a4b63-49d2-4866-8085-fc63f2e22b76.pdf

Maybe they're still living in Russellville, Arkansas. They'd both be 82 years old now.

--Tommy

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

"How do you know that the motorcycle cop she saw in front of the TSBD was Baker? Maybe she didn't get there until several minutes after the assassination, by which time another motorcycle policeman or motorcycle policemen might have appeared upon the scene." [T. Graves]

Here is your first clue, Thomas. What do you usually find with a motorcycle cop? [bobby P.]

My reply:

Hi Bob!

Gosh, beats the heck outta me, Bobby. Hmmm.

A donut?

Another motorcycle cop?

--Tommy

Edited January 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Peggy on the so called roll call sheet

And Robert Mac Neil who saw no coppers inside the TSBD while making a call at 12:36, so either Truly and Baker already had gone up the stairs or....their powwow outside continued.

But I find that somewhat hard to believe, as there is no statement that points that way.

Good stuff!