Re-Post from ROKC: re Baker entering TSBD

[Robert Prudhomme]

Ray Mitcham found this thread on the ROKC and I thought I'd share it here:

Barto

Moderator
Posts: 1316

Peggy Joyce Hawkins came to collect her husband from the TSBD, watched the limo and the the pres. getting shot and went back to the TSBD where she saw a motor cycle policeman in front of the TSBD and she heard remarks on his radio about the railroad yard.............so did Baker stand in front of those steps longer than has been thought?

Strange one....

Add on that she is mentioned on the list of people on the so called roll call sheet as mentioned by Ed, even though she was not a employee there, but her husband was and she must have made it back in there when the cops shut the gaff down.

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13151626-the-roll-call-remedy?page=4

And I see that Jim Fetzer claimed she was on the front steps which is bollox if you read the document carefully, then again everything is fake according to Jimbo

--

This is the first time I've seen this statement, and it seems to point to Baker lingering in front of the TSBD.

[Robert Prudhomme]

I much appreciate "Faroe Islander" giving me credit at the ROKC for being the one to deduce that Baker may not have entered the TSBD as quickly as we have been led to believe.

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Faroe Islander

Member
Posts: 74

"

Barto

at January 20, 2016 at 5:05 PM

At 12:30

Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/

At 12:34 they mention the TSBD supposedly..

At 12:36 Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building.

At 12:37 Get some men up here to cover this school depository building. It's believed the shot came from, as you see it on Elm Street, it would be upper right hand corner, second window from the end.

This to me means she saw Baker standing outside."

Looks like Bob was right when he said that Baker did not enter the building right away, GREAT find Barto

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This was only slightly soured by the retort from Barto, obviously jealous that he did not think of it first:

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Barto

Moderator
Posts: 1316

"Greg, the so called roll call sheet I refer to is only brought up as a fact that she is mentioned on it, and confirms her retuning to the TSBD as per her statement nothing more.

Moving on, I wonder if no one else makes a mention of Baker standing out there.

And if she can be recognised anywhere in the films as one of the returnees towards the steps.

Faroe Islander, Bob had a hunch by the looks of it, nothing more than that.

Now unless someone else can point out adifferent motorcycle cop went there after Baker went in in that short timeframe it is safe to say that Baker stood outside longer than he said on paper that he went in.

So did Truly and Baker quack in front or on those steps, did Oswald gpo inside and was then encountered by them?"

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Bob had a hunch by the looks of it, nothing more than that??? Barto, are you seriously going to attempt to take credit for this "discovery" now? That might pass for research on the ROKC, but you'll be laughed off of any other forum.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Greg Parker]

As I said at ROKC - this can be time-stamped because at the time she saw the cop, this came over the police radio:

"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there." That went out when? somewhere between 12:32 and 12:34?

You do need to be able rule out any other cop being there around that time though...and that might be some hurdle.

And Bob, it WAS a hunch based on your interpretation of a short film clip. Nothing wrong with hunches - especially if they end up being proven right.

[Robert Prudhomme]

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

P.S.

Despite Barto's slur on my work, I still give credit and kudos to him for bringing forth the statement of Peggy Joyce Hawkins, which is a lot more than he would ever do for me.

Of course, though, I am not a small man.

[Greg Parker]

P.S.

Despite Barto's slur on my work, I still give credit and kudos to him for bringing forth the statement of Peggy Joyce Hawkins, which is a lot more than he would ever do for me.

Of course, though, I am not a small man.

Bob, you had nothing concrete - that's the point. If it turns out you were right, you deserve credit. It's not rocket science. I did't see anything demeaning in what was said.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Sorry, Greg, but, considering the way my name has been dragged through the dirt at your forum, for absolutely nothing, BTW, I have a little difficulty seeing Mr. Kamp's comment as anything but an insult, and a petty one at that. Considering the source, I am hardly surprised, though.

[Greg Parker]

P.S.

Despite Barto's slur on my work, I still give credit and kudos to him for bringing forth the statement of Peggy Joyce Hawkins, which is a lot more than he would ever do for me.

Of course, though, I am not a small man.

But are you as big as Tommy?

When last measured, Tommy was 8' 3.5" in his night socks.

[Guest]

Ohhhhh, I did not see this thread, what a beaut it is. I posted the stuff at your other thread, what makes you think you ought to start another one? What? This cannot be dealt with in your other thread????

1/ what evidence did you put forward that says Baker stayed longer in front of the building than the hunch you had from the Darnell film and the few people seeing Baker? I want to see what you can bring to the table. If you cannot then it's a hunch, and get off your high horse claiming it is your discovery, you have been bending everyone's ears with this stuff here and everywhere else, all you had to do is trawl through some docs at MFF instead!

2/Where does it say I take credit for anything than besides putting a doc forward where it is worded in such a way that she saw a motor cycle cop in front of the building. I want you to point that out too! Credit....wtf for?

3/Next we will hear that you own Calvery as well.........same thing once someone else comes forward with the clincher you will come out of the woodwork as well with a claim about your Gloria.......

Get some sleep Bob!

Edit: spelling errors corrected

Edited January 24, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Sandy Larsen]

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/24/2016 at 11:30 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

On 1/23/2016 at 2:32 AM, Robert Prudhomme said:

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Sandy,

Obviously? Whenever a researcher or a student says "obviously," my non-sodomite-alien antenes go up and start wiggling around, big time.

How do you know Baker didn't change his course slightly in order to give himself a better shot (pardon the pun) up the steps?

That's obviously a possibility.

EDIT: Another thing. People don't normally get distracted by anything when they're running full-bore towards something over a short distance I would imagine that if they are distracted by something while running like that, they slow down a bit (or even come to a complete stop) while deciding whether or not to continue on to their goal, or to run towards the distraction, instead.

--Tommy

Edited April 29, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Sandy,

Obviously? Whenever a researcher or a student says "obviously," my non-sodomite-alien antenes go up and start wiggling around, big time.

How do you know Baker didn't change his course slightly in order to give himself a better shot (pardon the pun) up the steps?

How do I know? Because I studied the film clip. Baker makes a very abrupt change in direction just as he passes behind the tall guy (Truly?), and a large change at that. His new path is nearly perpendicular to that of the girl who is running to toward the right side of the doorway. He crosses her path, and that proves that he was then headed somewhere to the right of the doorway. Maybe some day I will find the time to extract frames and draw lines for those who can't see what I see. But for now I'm satisfied with my analysis and others can believe what they want.

That's obviously a possibility.

EDIT: Another thing. People can't normally distracted by anything when they're running full-bore towards something. I would imagine that if they are distracted by something while running like that, they slow down a bit (or even come to a complete stop) while deciding whether or not to continue on to their goal, or to run towards the distraction, instead.

Well Baker does make a sudden change without slowing down a great deal. I'm sure his path there forms is a rather large arc (several feet in radius). It's hard to tell because he goes behind Truly when he's turning.

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Sandy,

Obviously? Whenever a researcher or a student says "obviously," my non-sodomite-alien antenes go up and start wiggling around, big time.

How do you know Baker didn't change his course slightly in order to give himself a better shot (pardon the pun) up the steps?

How do I know? Because I studied the film clip. Baker makes a very abrupt change in direction just as he passes behind the tall guy (Truly?), and a large change at that. His new path is nearly perpendicular to that of the girl who is running to toward the right side of the doorway. He crosses her path, and that proves that he was then headed somewhere to the right of the doorway. Maybe some day I will find the time to extract frames and draw lines for those who can't see what I see. But for now I'm satisfied with my analysis and others can believe what they want.

Relax, Sandy. I didn't say Baker didn't change his course. I said it's possible he changed his course in order to give him a "better shot" up the steps.

That's obviously a possibility.

EDIT: Another thing. People can't normally distracted by anything when they're running full-bore towards something. I would imagine that if they are distracted by something while running like that, they slow down a bit (or even come to a complete stop) while deciding whether or not to continue on to their goal, or to run towards the distraction, instead.

Well Baker does make a sudden change without slowing down a great deal. I'm sure his path there forms is a rather large arc (several feet in radius). It's hard to tell because he goes behind Truly when he's turning.

What makes you think he slowed down at all? Can you see him slowing down in Darnell?

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Sandy,

Obviously? Whenever a researcher or a student says "obviously," my non-sodomite-alien antenes go up and start wiggling around, big time.

How do you know Baker didn't change his course slightly in order to give himself a better shot (pardon the pun) up the steps?

How do I know? Because I studied the film clip. Baker makes a very abrupt change in direction just as he passes behind the tall guy (Truly?), and a large change at that. His new path is nearly perpendicular to that of the girl who is running toward the right side of the doorway. He crosses her path, and that proves that he was then headed somewhere to the right of the doorway. Maybe some day I will find the time to extract frames and draw lines for those who can't see what I see. But for now I'm satisfied with my analysis and others can believe what they want.

Relax, Sandy. I didn't say Baker didn't change his course. I said it's possible he changed his course in order to give him a "better shot" up the steps.

That's obviously a possibility.

EDIT: Another thing. People can't normally distracted by anything when they're running full-bore towards something over a short distance. I would imagine that if they are distracted by something while running like that, they slow down a bit (or even come to a complete stop) while deciding whether or not to continue on to their goal, or to run towards the distraction, instead.

Well, Baker does make a sudden change without slowing down a great deal. I'm sure his path there forms is a rather large arc (several feet in radius). It's hard to tell because he goes behind Truly when he's turning.

What makes you think he slowed down at all? Can you see him slowing down in Darnell?

--Tommy

PS Truly was not the tall guy. Truly was short and was wearing a dark suit and fedora that day.

PPS The girl is running toward the right side of the doorway?

Edited January 24, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

No, it was not a hunch, Greg, and you can take that to the bank. I did a great amount of very careful research on this matter, and there were a great number of other factors that pointed toward Baker not immediately entering the TSBD.

Wasn't Bart Kamp a great defender of Baker immediately entering the TSBD? Or was he always defending Lovelady and Shelley being seen in the Couch/Darnell film, walking down the Elm St. extension as Baker ran in the opposite direction? I recall he left your forum in a big huff at least once, vowing never to return. And then came back a week later. Isn't that what your buddy MacRae does on a regular basis here?

Whatever the case, I have bumped the thread "Who saw Baker enter the TSBD" just to show it was slightly more than a "hunch" that made me question Baker's movements.

Congratulations on being right about the Baker distraction/pause (whatever you want to call it) Robert.

For the record and FWIW, I still contend that the film (Darnell?) shows Baker changing course about 18 feet before reaching the TSBD steps, obviously distracted by something.

Thanks for that, Sandy. Unfortunately, Peggy Joyce Hawkins' statement (wonder if she is related to Sadie Hawkins) does not go into a lot of detail, other than to say there was a motorcycle cop in front of the TSBD "at that time" and that she "heard some remarks over his radio".

As all of the film footages seem to show only one motorcycle in front of the TSBD, and we assume the motorcycle belongs to Baker, would we also be correct in assuming the motorcycle cop Ms. Hawkins refers to is Baker? And, can we also assume that being in front of the TSBD "at that time" means Baker was standing still on the sidewalk? This hardly seems to be the way one would describe a man running flat out into a building.

However, there is more to her statement. First, she tells us she had her small child with her. Next, she tells us she walked back to the front of the TSBD.

From her FBI statement:

"She stated she stayed behind the retaining wall until she realized there would be no more shots and then walked back to the front of the TSBD building. She said that a motorcycle police officer was in front of the building at this time and that she heard over his radio some remarks about the railroad yards near the building."

As the retaining wall is also in front of the TSBD, I believe we can all agree that Ms. Hawkins meant the front steps of the TSBD when she stated she walked back "to the front of the TSBD building". I think we can also agree that "at this time" refers to the time she arrived at the steps.

Does anyone see a woman with a small child in front of the TSBD steps in any of the film footages?

Edited January 24, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme