Re-Post from ROKC: re Baker entering TSBD

[Robert Prudhomme]

Going to threaten to cry and leave, as you do at ROKC on a regular basis?

[Guest]

Cry?

Regular?

Tsk tsk....

Edited February 1, 2016 by Bart Kamp

[Robert Prudhomme]

Think I didn't notice? You've thrown a couple of hissy fits over at the ROKC when you couldn't get your way.

[Guest]

Address the issues of this thread Bob, no one is interested in your false impressions you mislay here.

Better yet get some sleep Bob.

[Michael Clark]

Deleted. 

Edited April 21, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

Roger Craig states that Patrolman Baker was assigned to traffic control at the corner of Elm and Houston. When he left his post, traffic filled Elm St. and prevented Craig from crossing Elm in order to  confront the Rambler driver and the man running to that car, whom Craig later identified as LHO.

I am posting this because I do not recall this account having been brought up with regard to Baker's timeline.

 

From Roger Craig's Book: When They Kill a President 

 

"Back to November 22, 1963. As I have earlier stated, the time was approximately 12:40 p.m. when I ran into Buddy Walthers. The traffic was very heavy as Patrolman Baker (assigned to Elm and Houston Streets) had left his post, allowing the traffic to travel west on Elm Street. As we were scanning the curb I heard a shrill whistle coming from the north side of Elm Street. "

 

Edited April 22, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Roger Craig states that Patrolman Baker was assigned to traffic control at the corner of Elm and Houston. When he left his post, traffic filled Elm St. and prevented Craig from crossing Elm in order to  confront the Rambler driver and the man running to that car, whom Craig later identified as LHO.

I am posting this because I do not recall this account having been brought up with regard to Baker's timeline.

 

From Roger Craig's Book: When They Kill a President 

 

"Back to November 22, 1963. As I have earlier stated, the time was approximately 12:40 p.m. when I ran into Buddy Walthers. The traffic was very heavy as Patrolman Baker (assigned to Elm and Houston Streets) had left his post, allowing the traffic to travel west on Elm Street. As we were scanning the curb I heard a shrill whistle coming from the north side of Elm Street. "

 

Michael,

Judging by Officer Baker's first-day affidavit, it looks like his assignment to control traffic must have come after his 3rd or 4th floor encounter with a man inside the TSBD.

I don't know if his WC testimony covers his traffic control assignment.

 

[Ed LeDoux]

Peggy Bibler was born in 1934 and was kind enough to speak to me about her family history.
She is the daughter of Ewing Bibler and Irene (Eulla Belle) Danley.

She is also a living witness to history.

She related to me she was living in Mesquite Texas in 1963 and her husband, John Henry Hawkins, worked as a textbook salesman for Mr. Wilson at Allyn and Bacon in Dallas at the Texas School Book Depository. She had driven to Dallas for the first time alone. She had planned to watch the President from her husbands office windows on the third floor of the TSBD.
She was up there on the third floor and decided since the sidewalk was empty to take up a spot directly out front of the TSBD as she knew the motorcade would pass in front of her and her son only 4 years old John Benjamin Hawkins. They watched as the limo was 10 -15 feet away the shots rang out.
She knew gunshots having grown up around them.
She did not think they came from the TSBD.
She saw the president slump and that was indicative that he had been hit.
She instinctively took her son behind the retaining wall for safety.
Then she was listening and heard a radio report from the policeman's motorcycle at the curb.
The report was of a nature that she felt it safe to go inside the TSBD.
She felt it was a report calling for police to search Railroad yards.
So she went in the TSBD and was locked in for around an hour before having to sign out, so to speak, or give her name and address. The police came and got her statement later.
She doesn't recall having to show id just stated her details for the police officer.
She was let go after about an hour in which time she would she police going passed the doorway and when she stuck her head out she would she heavily armed police about.

Peggy said she did not think Lee Oswald shot from the TSBD.
She doesn't know where or how many shots were fired but she does know what she heard and did.
Going back into the TSBD being vivid in her mind with her son as that was a safe place where she felt shots had not come from. Of course later that is exactly what she was told happened.

Her husband sold text books and traveled around the state sometimes out of state for business
and he knew Lee Oswald. Knew him by name, and face. John liked to know everyone's names. He said Lee would load his car with books for his sale routes.
Lee was a nice employee according to Peggy.

The limo had gone past with Jackie and JFK and the Governor,
Peggy was the closest to the president when the shots happened. 10-15 feet
Standing on Elm sidewalk next to the curb.
She saw JFK fall into Jackie's lap.
She knew he was shot, she took son backwards towards the TSBD and got behind an abutment.
She said they would claim that was location of the shot.
She did not see any shots hit anyone but Kennedy before she reacted.
She said she was standing at the very end of the line of the people.
She said she saw the pictures and warren report, wasn't holding son, she thought he was standing beside her.
Only thing she knows about policeman was the motorcycle was parked in front of TSBD and she paused by motorcycle and heard the report which she felt safe to enter the TSBD.
She agreed the radio report was likely about railroad and didn't mention the TSBD and felt safe to re-enter.
She was trapped and locked in the TSBD. Saw from the office police well armed searching the building.
She understands policeman, as her son John Benjamin Hawkins became a city policeman in Arkansas.
Son doesn't recall the event, as he was too young to have an impression.
Its been a lot of years but she tells her brush with history like it happened yesterday

She said if Oswald wasn't working at the TSBD it could have happened any where along the parade as all the large buildings had unlocked attics.
It just happened, she says, that Lee worked there at the TSBD, and they claimed that was the location where shots had came from.

That's all. For now.
Cheers, Ed

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ed LeDoux
Free up Attachment space, google Peggy's picture

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Ed LeDoux said:

Peggy Bibler was born in 1934 and was kind enough to speak to me about her family history.
She is the daughter of Ewing Bibler and Irene (Eulla Belle) Danley.

She is also a living witness to history.

She related to me she was living in Mesquite Texas in 1963 and her husband, John Henry Hawkins, worked as a textbook salesman for Mr. Wilson at Allyn and Bacon in Dallas at the Texas School Book Depository. She had driven to Dallas for the first time alone. She had planned to watch the President from her husbands office windows on the third floor of the TSBD.
She was up there on the third floor and decided since the sidewalk was empty to take up a spot directly out front of the TSBD as she knew the motorcade would pass in front of her and her son only 4 years old John Benjamin Hawkins. They watched as the limo was 10 -15 feet away the shots rang out.
She knew gunshots having grown up around them.
She did not think they came from the TSBD.
She saw the president slump and that was indicative that he had been hit.
She instinctively took her son behind the retaining wall for safety.
Then she was listening and heard a radio report from the policeman's motorcycle at the curb.
The report was of a nature that she felt it safe to go inside the TSBD.
She felt it was a report calling for police to search Railroad yards.
So she went in the TSBD and was locked in for around an hour before having to sign out, so to speak, or give her name and address. The police came and got her statement later.
She doesn't recall having to show id just stated her details for the police officer.
She was let go after about an hour in which time she would she police going passed the doorway and when she stuck her head out she would she heavily armed police about.

Peggy said she did not think Lee Oswald shot from the TSBD.
She doesn't know where or how many shots were fired but she does know what she heard and did.
Going back into the TSBD being vivid in her mind with her son as that was a safe place where she felt shots had not come from. Of course later that is exactly what she was told happened.

Her husband sold text books and traveled around the state sometimes out of state for business
and he knew Lee Oswald. Knew him by name, and face. John liked to know everyone's names. He said Lee would load his car with books for his sale routes.
Lee was a nice employee according to Peggy.

The limo had gone past with Jackie and JFK and the Governor,
Peggy was the closest to the president when the shots happened. 10-15 feet
Standing on Elm sidewalk next to the curb.
She saw JFK fall into Jackie's lap.
She knew he was shot, she took son backwards towards the TSBD and got behind an abutment.
She said they would claim that was location of the shot.
She did not see any shots hit anyone but Kennedy before she reacted.
She said she was standing at the very end of the line of the people.
She said she saw the pictures and warren report, wasn't holding son, she thought he was standing beside her.
Only thing she knows about policeman was the motorcycle was parked in front of TSBD and she paused by motorcycle and heard the report which she felt safe to enter the TSBD.
She agreed the radio report was likely about railroad and didn't mention the TSBD and felt safe to re-enter.
She was trapped and locked in the TSBD. Saw from the office police well armed searching the building.
She understands policeman, as her son John Benjamin Hawkins became a city policeman in Arkansas.
Son doesn't recall the event, as he was too young to have an impression.
Its been a lot of years but she tells her brush with history like it happened yesterday

She said if Oswald wasn't working at the TSBD it could have happened any where along the parade as all the large buildings had unlocked attics.
It just happened, she says, that Lee worked there at the TSBD, and they claimed that was the location where shots had came from.

That's all. For now.
Cheers, Ed

Ed,

Did you show her any photos / frames and ask her if she could identify herself in them?

10 to 15 feet from JFK when he was first hit?  Wouldn't that put the limo closer to the TSBD during first shot than is generally assumed?

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/29/2016 at 8:24 AM, Thomas Graves said:

[...]

I think it's been at least 24 hours .....

(lol)

BUMP

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/23/2016 at 3:25 AM, Greg Parker said:

But [Bob Prudhomme], are you as big as Tommy?

When last measured, Tommy was 8' 3.5" in his night socks.

Dear Greg,

I'm 6' 3" and weigh 225 pounds, actually.  (I've shrunk 2 inches and lost 20 lbs over the years.)

When you're as big as I am, there's no need to exaggerate.

You?

--  Tommy

Darn!  Now the Ruskies know my dimensions...

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/29/2016 at 8:03 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 1/29/2016 at 5:43 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

On 1/28/2016 at 7:29 PM, Robert Prudhomme said:

On 1/28/2016 at 2:35 PM, Thomas Graves said:

The child wearing the red cap and being held by the woman in this Towner frame could very well be Johnny Hawkins, and the woman could very well be his mother, Peggy Joyce Hawkins.

Credit: Robin Unger http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=20032

--Tommy

Prudhomme wrote:  I see what you mean now. Funny, Altgens' telephoto lens makes it look like the woman and man are right next to the TSBD steps, and not out on the concrete island and actually closer to the concrete pillar.

That may be Hawkins and her child, although, at first glance, the child appears small for a four year old. That would certainly place her in the right spot to get behind the retaining wall, as it begins behind her just on the other side of the concrete pillar.

I wonder if she considered the concrete pillar as part of the retaining wall when she gave her statement.

Larsen wrote:  They aren't between the two lamp posts. And it's not likely a boy would be wearing a red hat. (Or maybe it is just pink that is to be avoided.)

Tommy Graves wrote:  Sandy, Sandy, Sandy.

The child is wearing a knitted, pullover-style red cap, ... you know, ... like people wear when it's cold?

--Tommy

Edit: Peggy Joyce Hawkings (formerly Bibler) from her 1956 college yearbook. Note the same chin, cheeks, eyebrows, and hair color. Bear in mind that her head is tilted at different angles in the two photographs.

bumped

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 1/30/2016 at 2:33 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Barto,

Works for me.

What I'm thinking is that Baker might have listened to his radio for a few seconds after he'd parked his motorcycle, and Peggy might have seen him there and / or as he was running towards the TSBD, and that she then walked over towards his motorcycle and heard Decker's "railroad yards" comment on the radio. Obviously, Baker would have been "in front of the TSBD" the whole time that Hawkins saw him (i.e. while he was standing next to his motorcycle and / or while running towards the building), and he still could have gone directly up the steps and into the building.

The timing of Sheriff Decker's "railroad yards" comment wouldn't be so critical in that scenario, would it.

Regardless, do we know exactly (not in round minutes, but plus or minus a couple of seconds) when Decker broadcast that bit about "the railroad yards" from Curry's radio?

Nice rendition of that Couch frame, by the way.

Keep up the good work!

--Tommy

bumped

Note:  To see Bart's post which I'm responding to here, click on the curvy "go back" arrow in the upper right-hand corner.  You gotta hover your little mouse thingy over the curvy arrow for it to become visible.  It's just below and a little to the left of the iconic "share this on the Internet" symbol.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Ed LeDoux]

I did send Peggy photos, those posted here and others.
She said the photos are not her.
Meaning she has not been located in them.
Son would be 4yrs old, standing beside her, not a baby being held.
She moved at the first shot.

She did not go towards Bakers bike, she might have been able to hear it.
She went back, away from Elm Street, directly after the shot sounded and Kennedy slums, she knew it was a shot and not a backfire, or firecracker.
She went back towards the TSBD and got behind the wall/abutment.
She waited.
When she thought there were no more shots she then walked towards the TSBD.
She had to step out into the Elm Extension as the sidewalk was full of people,
she went behind them, out into the street, and there was a motorcycle there on ELM EXTENSION
she stopped and heard a report that was of a nature, did not mention TSBD, she said she thought it was safe to enter the Depository.
She went around the motorcycle and to the front entrance
She does not recall any police on her way to the third floor.
Only after being inside did the police enter, she saw them from the offices door and she saw them searching.

(recall this was a motorcade and cops were at the intersections with motors/ bikes/trikes)
So if she mentions a policeman in her FBI statement it could be referencing just such a officer. (Smith, etc.)
Or it could be Baker she mentioned on the way in as being out front.
Recall also the "FRONT" of the TSBD runs from corner of Houston St. down Elm Extension to the end of the TSBD Annex.

I believe she might have overheard the Curry report from Baker's motorcycle radio
I believe she had to of gone around and also listened to Harkness' trike radio and its position when he parked at the end of Elm Extension and talked to those in the Railroad Yard/car park /Fence area and was pointed to Amos Euins, whom he put on his trike and took him to the TSBD front entrance.
His trike was parked where Peggy would be walking up Elm Extension.

So the officer she mentions in the FBI report could be officer Smith only down the Elm Extension as he searches the bushes,
or it could be Harkness as he parked on Elm Ext. and located witnesses in the car park.

Cheers, Ed

 

[Ed LeDoux]

On Monday, May 01, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Ed,

Did you show her any photos / frames and ask her if she could identify herself in them?

10 to 15 feet from JFK when he was first hit?  Wouldn't that put the limo closer to the TSBD during first shot than is generally assumed?

--  Tommy

Or

It could put her farther down elm than was thought.

Since she is not the lady with a knit capped infant we can safely say the location on Don Roberdeau's plat marked Hawkins is in error.

Peggy was not near the tree.

She stated she was at the end of a line of people.

Cheers 

Ed