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Did somebody screw up and plant the wrong shells?

I've been trying to determine why a 7.65 German Mauser had to be changed to a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano.

The first three people who were on the scene when the rifle was found, Weitzman, Boone and Craig were all Sheriff's Deputies. In one way or another, they all identified it as a German make. After the rifle was discovered, they were all ordered to stand down, turn the evidence over to the City authorities and return the Sheriff's Department. It was only after the Dallas City Department got a hold of the rifle was it changed to an Italian rifle.

Why?

Did the rifle have to match the caliber of the shells that were found? And by all accounts, it was the shells that were found first.

In his Sherifff's Report, Harry Weatherford said the he was with Luke Mooney, Eugene Boone, Ralph Walters and Sam Webster.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0260b.htm

In his Sheriff's Report, Ralph Walters said that by the time he got to the sixth floor, Officers Mooney and Grandstaff were already there and searching the floor. They told him that Webster and Victory had gone up to the seventh floor. Webster came to the head of the stairs and said they needed lights. Walters left and went back to the Sheriff's Department to get some lights. On the way back with the lights, he met up with L.C. Smith and Eugene Boone and they returned to the Depository. They took four lights up to the seventh floor and returned to the sixth floor "where Officers Mooney and Grandstaff were searching the floor".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0262a.htm

In his Sheriff's Report, Luke Mooney said that he was the only one on the sixth floor.

Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Victory went up to the 7th floor. "I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it" and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books.

L.C. Smith said the he was on the floor when Boone found the rifle, but he doesn't say he was right there and identified it.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0267b.htm

Seymour Weitzman filed an Affidavit and said that he and Boone found the rifle at the same time and he very definitely said that the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=246&tab=page

In his Sheriff's Report, Eugene Boone said that an Officer Whitman of the Dallas City Police Department was with him when the rifle was found.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0263a.htm

Does anyone know of a report by, or any interviews with Officers Victory, Grandstaff , Webster or Whitman?

It would be nice to know what they had to say on the matter. It appears that none of them were called by the Warren Commission.

Steve Thomas

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Steve:

That is interesting work.

I have never even heard of some of those people that you mention.

And that is a notable dichotomy you make between the county sheriff and the city police.

But no I do no know of any affidavit by those officers you mention.

Although you may have to search MFF to find out if they exist.

But I agree, that the evidence of the Mauser being found first is pretty convincing. Sylvia Meagher was quite good on this as I recall.

Edited by James DiEugenio
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And there was a C.E. Whitman as a "School Safety Officer" - http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

SCHOOL SAFETY OFFICERS

1 . Baker, M. B . 7 :30 a.m. to 4:30 P .m .

2 . Bardin, W. R. 7 :30 a .m . to 4:30 P.m .

3 . Chance, F. To 7 :30 a .m . to 4:30 p.m .

4. Davenport, R. A. 7 :30 a .m . to 4:30 P.m .

5 . Gass, A . B. 7 :30 a.m . to 4:30 p.m.

6. Horn, B. Go 7:30 a.m . to 4:30 P.m .

7. Hugging, W. No 7:30 a.m . to 4 :30 P.m.

S o Jennings, J. B. 7 :30 a.m o to 4:30 P.m .

9. Jones, Jo B, 7:30 some to 4"30 P.m .

BATCHELoR EXHIBIT No. 5002-Continued

10 . Whitman, C. E. .P7-m:30 some to 4230

Edited by David Boylan
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Jim,

From Eugene Boone's Sheriff's Report:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0264a.htm

"Officer Whitman of Robie Love's office was with me when I found the rifle..."

In this report, Boone identifies Whitman as Officer Whitman, DPD:

In his Sheriff's Report, Eugene Boone said that an Officer Whitman, DPD was with him when the rifle was found.

http://www.history-m...Vol19_0263a.htm

From Seymour Weitzman's WC testimony:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/weitzman.htm

Mr. WEITZMAN - I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was Galveston, Tex. We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Louisiana, Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed up all the stores, retired from the discount operation and went to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, precinct 1.
Mr. BALL - You've been there ever since as deputy constable?
Mr. WEITZMAN - That's right.

Seymour Weitzman filed an Affidavit and said that he and Boone found the rifle at the same time and he very definitely said that the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser.

https://www.maryferr...Id=246&tab=page

So, was Officer Whitman and Seymour Weitzman the same person?

I have, in the past tried to find a collection of reports filed by the Constables in Robie Love's office, similar to the Decker reports in vol 19 of the WC Exhibits, or the after-action reports filed by the DPD officers in the Dallas City JFK archives, but to no avail.

I did run across this oral history summary of an interview with Robie Love held at Texas Tech University.

That would be interesting I think.

Oral History Collection

MAIN ENTRY: Love, Robie DATE OF INTERVIEW: March 30, 1971 LOCATION OF INTERVIEW: Dallas, Texas INTERVIEWER: Fred Carpenter LENGTH OF INTERVIEW: 1 hour, 20 minutes

SCOPE AND CONTENT NOTE:

TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE:

Robie Love discusses his career as a bandleader in the 1930s and as a law enforcement officer for over 30 years.

Constable of Dallas for 25 years
Recalls first campaign for election
States history of office of constable

Duties of constable listed
Reasons for long stay in office

The duties of a Constable:

http://www.county.org/texas-county-government/texas-county-officials/Pages/Constable.aspx

Constable Constable_round%20icon.png
Description of Office
  • Serves as a licensed peace officer and performs various law enforcement functions, including issuing traffic citations.
  • Serves warrants and civil papers such as subpoenas and temporary restraining orders.
  • Serves as bailiff for Justice of the Peace Court.

Robie Love would appear later in a very interesting story about a box of documents found in the Dallas County Courthouse:

http://coverthistory.blogspot.com/2005/07/so-just-how-much-truth-was-there-to.html

"On March 28, 1976, the Dallas *Morning News* ran an unusual story when four Dallas deputy constables decided to come forward to relate something that had been bothering them for a very long time. Shortly after the assassination the four had examined a box of handwritten notes and assorted other papers in the Dallas County Courthouse, a number of which apparently linked Oswald and Ruby. Deputy Billy Preston, Constable Robie Love, and deputy constables Mike Callahan and Ben Cash all recalled that this box had come from the apartment of a Dallas woman (77)."

Steve Thomas

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David,

"And there was a C.E. Whitman as a "School Safety Officer" - http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Batchelor_Ex_5002.pdf

10 . Whitman, C. E. .P7-m:30 some to 4230"

Thank you.

I've seen that, but the only time I've seen Whitman referenced is in the

Dallas police tapes at about the 12:37 mark

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/index.htm

when he was routed to Mockingbird and Cedar Springs to help with a traffic snafu.

4 (Dep. Chief N.T. Fisher) "Yes, I don't know what happened to the traffic officers assigned to Cedar Springs and Mockingbird, but they're not there and the traffic is really snafued."

257 (Patrolman C.E. Whitman) Do you want us to go back to Mockingbird and Cedar Springs? Dispatcher 10-4.

Officer# 32 is also routed there: "32, on mark out, report to Cedar Springs and Mockingbird."

So, I don't think Whitman is in the Depository at 1:22.

I think Whitman and Weitzman are the same person.

Steve Thomas

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I think that is more than an interesting story, don't you?

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It should be noted that any witness, such as Roger Craig, who ID'ed the rifle by supposedly reading the calibre of the rifle on the base of the barrel, is likely not being truthful.

Mauser did not stamp the calibre anywhere on their rifles. In the case of the Argentine Mauser, there were several models and they were ID'ed by the year they were introduced.

The 7.65mm Argentine Mauser that most closely resembles the 6.5mm Carcano had its stampings on the side of the receiver, not the barrel.

argentine_mauser_f1.jpg

M1909RecSide.jpg

Seen below is a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser Model 1891 with protruding box magazine, similar to the 6.5mm Carcano.

1891-argentina-lato-dx-copia.jpg

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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Bob:

We are not talking about Roger Craig and I don't think that Steve mentioned him.

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Bob:

We are not talking about Roger Craig and I don't think that Steve mentioned him.

From Post #1:

"The first three people who were on the scene when the rifle was found, Weitzman, Boone and Craig were all Sheriff's Deputies. In one way or another, they all identified it as a German make."

However, this is beside the point. What I am trying to stress is that anyone who claims to have read the calibre stamped on a Mauser rifle is full of beans.

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Robert,

"It should be noted that any witness, such as Roger Craig, who ID'ed the rifle by supposedly reading the calibre of the rifle on the base of the barrel, is likely not being truthful.

Mauser did not stamp the calibre anywhere on their rifles. In the case of the Argentine Mauser, there were several models and they were ID'ed by the year they were introduced."

Thank you. I have often wondered about that. I recently saw a YouTube video of Roger Craig, and he stated emphatically that the rifle had 7.65 Mauser stamped right on the barrel. see the 5:15 mark on this 14 minute video:

I always wanted to go back and make sure that, yes, that is exactly what is stamped on the barrel.

and Jim, yes I did mention Craig as being one of the first on the scene when the rifle was found.

Jim, you had expressed the thought that the Mockingbird and Cedar Springs incident might be an interesting story.

For a long time I had thought so too, but now I'm not so sure.

In his personnel assignments for the parade or motorcade, in 1964, Captain Purdue Lawrence wrote that personnel assigned to locations close to Love Field would then be assigned to the Trade Mart area after the motorcade passed. Mockingbird and Cedar Springs is right next to Love Field.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0259a.htm

The officers assigned to that location were:

C.E. Whitman (in car 257)

J.B. Jones

J. Jemings (or Jennings)

W. Huggins

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0255b.htm

I think what happened is that after the motorcade passed, those officers left and went to the Trade Mart, but I don't find any after-action reports from them in the DPD JFK Archives to verify that.

Steve Thomas

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Did somebody screw up and plant the wrong shells?

I've been trying to determine why a 7.65 German Mauser had to be changed to a 6.5 Mannlicher Carcano.

The first three people who were on the scene when the rifle was found, Weitzman, Boone and Craig were all Sheriff's Deputies. In one way or another, they all identified it as a German make. After the rifle was discovered, they were all ordered to stand down, turn the evidence over to the City authorities and return the Sheriff's Department. It was only after the Dallas City Department got a hold of the rifle was it changed to an Italian rifle.

Why?

Did the rifle have to match the caliber of the shells that were found? And by all accounts, it was the shells that were found first.

In his Sherifff's Report, Harry Weatherford said the he was with Luke Mooney, Eugene Boone, Ralph Walters and Sam Webster.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0260b.htm

In his Sheriff's Report, Ralph Walters said that by the time he got to the sixth floor, Officers Mooney and Grandstaff were already there and searching the floor. They told him that Webster and Victory had gone up to the seventh floor. Webster came to the head of the stairs and said they needed lights. Walters left and went back to the Sheriff's Department to get some lights. On the way back with the lights, he met up with L.C. Smith and Eugene Boone and they returned to the Depository. They took four lights up to the seventh floor and returned to the sixth floor "where Officers Mooney and Grandstaff were searching the floor".

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0262a.htm

In his Sheriff's Report, Luke Mooney said that he was the only one on the sixth floor.

Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Victory went up to the 7th floor. "I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it" and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books.

L.C. Smith said the he was on the floor when Boone found the rifle, but he doesn't say he was right there and identified it.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0267b.htm

Seymour Weitzman filed an Affidavit and said that he and Boone found the rifle at the same time and he very definitely said that the rifle was a 7.65 Mauser.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=246&tab=page

In his Sheriff's Report, Eugene Boone said that an Officer Whitman of the Dallas City Police Department was with him when the rifle was found.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0263a.htm

Does anyone know of a report by, or any interviews with Officers Victory, Grandstaff , Webster or Whitman?

It would be nice to know what they had to say on the matter. It appears that none of them were called by the Warren Commission.

Steve Thomas

"Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator."

How could this be if in Roy Truly's testimony before getting edited and according to DPD Baker who said he encountered Oswald on the second floor said himself the freight elevator wasn't working?

There seems to be a lot of double talk going on.

Edited by Scott Kaiser
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Bob:

We are not talking about Roger Craig and I don't think that Steve mentioned him.

From Post #1:

"The first three people who were on the scene when the rifle was found, Weitzman, Boone and Craig were all Sheriff's Deputies. In one way or another, they all identified it as a German make."

However, this is beside the point. What I am trying to stress is that anyone who claims to have read the calibre stamped on a Mauser rifle is full of beans.

How many times does one person have to be wrong before you begin to seriously question his work?

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