126 posts in this topic

My thanks to Robert Prudhomme for bringing Warren Commission Document 298 to my attention, and to Jim DiEugenio for putting it in context with the April 27th memo from Redlich to Rankin.

And again thanks to Robert for helping me make sense of it all by posting informationarrow-10x10.png gathered from the testimony of Mary Moorman and James Altgens, which places the the limo for the first and final shots (sans Z-film dependency).. If I understand correctly, Moorman's testimony agrees with Altgens' regarding the first shot, and this gives me confidence in their testimony.

But there is one thing I'm not sure I understand correctly. According to both Moorman's and Altgens' testimony, the first shot occurred when the scene was as depicted in Z-frame 255. Okay, so they agree with each other. Problem is, JFK had already been hit prior that. Right? The Z-film has JFK being shot more than 1 1/2 seconds earlier. Of coursearrow-10x10.png, the Z-film could be wrong. But if we consider only Moorman's photo, JFK had to have reacted very quickly to the shot.

The problem with this hypothesis is that one has to figure out from where the extant Z-film got its frames depicting Kennedy bringing his hands up toward his throat just before slumping. Moorman shows only the slumping part.

Am I understanding this correctly? (This question is directed only to those who believe the Z-film has been altered.)

(Sorry Greg for going off topic. Though it sounds like you've given up on Pat.)

Altgens corresponds with extant Z-film frame 225. Note Jackie's gloved hand grasping the president's left arm raised to his throat as seen through the limo windshield in Altgens 6. Then note the exact same hand position in the extant Z-film frame 225. It matches to a tee.

The Moorman photo corresponds to extant Z-film frame 312. Both of these can be easily confirmed with distinct corresponding "features" within both the still photos and the film frames respectively. As an example one can draw an imaginary straight line from the Z-lens POV to the Moorman lens that passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle's windshield on the way to Moorman's lens. At the same time, one can draw a corresponding straight line from the reverse angle--from the Moorman lens POV to the Z-lens--that also passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle windshield on its way to the Zapruder lens.

I hope that helps. I can post a graphic tomorrow if you want.

The proper adjective to use. Thank you, Greg.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The location of the fatal head shot is clear when one studies the films. It was just past the Newmans. No one honestly disputes that. So how could both the SS and FBI place the shot well past its actual location, after initially getting it right, and closely studying the films?

They couldn't, IMO. As a consequence, I suspect they lied about the location for a reason.

Now, I went round and round over this with Tom Purvis. For years. He refused to believe the SS and FBI would lie about something in their reports, and felt certain it was Specter and the WC who lied when they said the head shot was at 265 ft. He claimed the third shot just after the head shot was in fact the Connally shot. When I found the early SS and FBI reports in which the shooting sequence was identified, in which it was claimed the second shot hit Connally and the third shot was the head shot, he couldn't handle it.

The SS and FBI reports were lies. The WC's jobarrow-10x10.png was to make these lies palatable for a skeptical public. Thus, the May 24 1964 re-enactment. Thus, the single-bullet theory.

Pat, Tom's description was:

"1. One Shooter.

2. All shots from sixth floor window of TSDB.
3. Extremely high probability (beyond reasonable doubt) that LHO was the shooter.
4. Three shots fired, three hits.
5. First shot struck tree limb, tumbled in flight, struck in base first attitude, and small 4.5mm lead protrusion out base of bullet sheared off and came out the anterior neck of JFK.
6. Second shot at Z312/313 (some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds later) struck JFK just in the top rear/cowlick of the head. Sheared portion of skull over to side, bullet severely fragmented due to manner in which it exited the skull parallel against the skull bone, fragment from this headshot went forward to strike JBC in the wrist.
7. Third shot down in front of Altgens. Bullet went through coat collar at edge of colllar, struck at edge of hairline at base of JFK's neck, tunneled through soft flesh of he neck due to the well forward and almost head down position of JFK, struck in the EOP vicinity of the skull, passed through the mid-brain of the skull and exited in the frontal lobe.
Then continued forward to strike JBC in the right shoulder as JBC lay across the open area between the jump seats with his body pulled up into the fetal position.
The bullet penetrated through JBC's chest, exited the chest, and went on to strike and enter the left inner thigh of JBC."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thanks to Robert Prudhomme for bringing Warren Commission Document 298 to my attention, and to Jim DiEugenio for putting it in context with the April 27th memo from Redlich to Rankin.

And again thanks to Robert for helping me make sense of it all by posting information gathered from the testimony of Mary Moorman and James Altgens, which places the the limo for the first and final shots (sans Z-film dependency).. If I understand correctly, Moorman's testimony agrees with Altgens' regarding the first shot, and this gives me confidence in their testimony.

But there is one thing I'm not sure I understand correctly. According to both Moorman's and Altgens' testimony, the first shot occurred when the scene was as depicted in Z-frame 255. Okay, so they agree with each other. Problem is, JFK had already been hit prior that. Right? The Z-film has JFK being shot more than 1 1/2 seconds earlier. Of course, the Z-film could be wrong. But if we consider only Moorman's photo, JFK had to have reacted very quickly to the shot.

The problem with this hypothesis is that one has to figure out from where the extant Z-film got its frames depicting Kennedy bringing his hands up toward his throat just before slumping. Moorman shows only the slumping part.

Am I understanding this correctly? (This question is directed only to those who believe the Z-film has been altered.)

(Sorry Greg for going off topic. Though it sounds like you've given up on Pat.)

Altgens corresponds with extant Z-film frame 225. Note Jackie's gloved hand grasping the president's left arm raised to his throat as seen through the limo windshield in Altgens 6. Then note the exact same hand position in the extant Z-film frame 225. It matches to a tee.

The Moorman photo corresponds to extant Z-film frame 312. Both of these can be easily confirmed with distinct corresponding "features" within both the still photos and the film frames respectively. As an example one can draw an imaginary straight line from the Z-lens POV to the Moorman lens that passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle's windshield on the way to Moorman's lens. At the same time, one can draw a corresponding straight line from the reverse angle--from the Moorman lens POV to the Z-lens--that also passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle windshield on its way to the Zapruder lens.

I hope that helps. I can post a graphic tomorrow if you want.

Thanks Greg, that helped a bunch. (Though you meant Z255, not Z225 for the Altgens 6 shot.)

Now I understand better what Robert's points were, I think.

As I understand it now, there is a question as to when the shots quit, due to Moorman''s statements.

And as for Altgens, his statement (that he was 15 ft from the limo during the fatal head shot) indicates that the head shot really occurred further down the road than where Z313 shows it.

This is better than how I earlier understood Robert's post. Because rather than most the Z-footage being altered, it looks like just the latter part of it was. I assume it was altered to remove the limo-stop. The limo-stop would be pretty damning for the Secret Service.

This is pretty obvious so I'm sure it's been discussed a lot. But it seems that removing frames to speed up the limo during the limo-stop would be the way to go, followed by a good deal of touch-up work to remove jerkiness. By removing the limo-stop that way, the film would be shortened. The effect would be that the final shot on the revised film would occur closer to the TSBD than it really did.

The problem is that this process would also move everything closer to the TSBD. And so, for example, Altgens should be seen in Z313. Which he isn't. Back to the drawing board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, who can see JFK's brains flying skyward in Moorman's Polaroid? Don't be shy, now.

I think DVP could, if he were here. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The problem with this hypothesis is that one has to figure out from where the extant Z-film got its frames depicting Kennedy bringing his hands up toward his throat just before slumping. Moorman shows only the slumping part."

The same way I created 3x the frame count for this extant zfilm span.

There were more to begin with.

Optical%20Flow.gif

Hey, that's pretty slick Chris.

I assume you copied frames and then moved the new ones ones along with the motion of the cars.

Hey wait... that wouldn't work. Anything stationary would wiggle and thereby be blurred.

Please explain what you did.

EDIT: Oh sorry, I need to explain myself.

I was thinking that if you did what I think you did (which is, made repeated copies of frames and then moved each slightly to match the movement of the cars. or in other words interpolated frames) then this looked like a promising technique to help with altering the Z film such that the slow-down of the limo could be removed. First remove frames from where the limo slows down in order to make it appear not to slow down, and then do your interpolation technique to put all the stationary objects back into their correct locations.

I then realized that your technique (if I understand it correctly) wouldn't work so well on the stationary objects. it would make them wiggle, thus blurring them.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pat, Tom's description was:

"1. One Shooter.

2. All shots from sixth floor window of TSDB.

3. Extremely high probability (beyond reasonable doubt) that LHO was the shooter.

4. Three shots fired, three hits.

5. First shot struck tree limb, tumbled in flight, struck in base first attitude, and small 4.5mm lead protrusion out base of bullet sheared off and came out the anterior neck of JFK.

6. Second shot at Z312/313 (some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds later) struck JFK just in the top rear/cowlick of the head. Sheared portion of skull over to side, bullet severely fragmented due to manner in which it exited the skull parallel against the skull bone, fragment from this headshot went forward to strike JBC in the wrist.

7. Third shot down in front of Altgens. Bullet went through coat collar at edge of colllar, struck at edge of hairline at base of JFK's neck, tunneled through soft flesh of he neck due to the well forward and almost head down position of JFK, struck in the EOP vicinity of the skull, passed through the mid-brain of the skull and exited in the frontal lobe.

Then continued forward to strike JBC in the right shoulder as JBC lay across the open area between the jump seats with his body pulled up into the fetal position.

The bullet penetrated through JBC's chest, exited the chest, and went on to strike and enter the left inner thigh of JBC."

Mr. Purvis also believed that it was CE-399 that struck JFK in the back.

Tom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The same way I created 3x the frame count for this extant zfilm span.

There were more to begin with.

Optical%20Flow.gif

Chris,

Excellent job! I can pick out details that I couldn't see in any of the online Z-films or the DVD. Will you be applying this process to additional sections of the Z-film?

Tom

Edited by Tom Neal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From patspeer.com, chapter 7:

2-26-2003. Transcript provided by James Fetzer) (Moorman is standing on the grass where she is seen in the Zapruder film) "I just stepped to the, uh, to the edge here, and Jean is hollering, "Look Mr. President, look our way!" and then I snapped the picture, which was at the same instant, evidently, as the bullet hit him, not realizing that's what had happened.

(Thanks for the Moorman quotes, Pat.)

Well this is odd. Moorman talks as though she is taking a picture of the president from the FRONT. Yet her famous photo shows Kennedy from BEHIND. What am I misunderstanding here?

Also, I thought she took the photo at the time of the first shot. Wikipedia says it was at Z313, and indeed the Moorman photo looks like ~Z312 but from the other side. (With Kennedy slumping and Jackie leaning over him.) Taking only the Moorman photo, the Z-film, and Moorman's testimony into consideration, it seems like she took the same shot as ~Z312, and somehow thought that what she heard was the FIRST shot, and that for some reason she heard a couple of shots after that.

Am I understanding this right? This is confusing.

EDIT: Greg answered my second question. (Thanks Greg!) But what about my first question?

Chapters 5 thru 9 on my website list the Dealey Plaza witnesses and their statements over the years. It is far and away the largest collection of quotes of its kind. One of the things it proves, beyond all doubt, in my opinion, is that most researchers on both sides of the fence cherry-pick witnesses to fit their favorite scenarios, as opposed to carefully studying the eyewitness evidence.

Altgens and Moorman are perfect examples. People who wanna believe the head shot was further down the road when the fatal shot was fired than depicted in the z-film (and that the z-film is thereby fake) love to cite Altgens' testimony, in which he makes out the limo was near him when the fatal shot was fired. Most of these people would like us to believe the film was altered to hide a fatal shot from the front. These people neglect that Altgens was quite clear in that the blood and brain matter exploded towards him, and not away from him, and that the fatal head shot came from behind.

Moorman is another mystery. She was inconsistent on the number of shots she heard, but felt certain the first shot she heard was the fatal head shot, which happened just as she was taking her photo. (It's quite clear in the context of the other witnesses that Moorman and Hill were gabbing away when the first shot was fired and failed to recognize it.) The z-film shows her exact location a split second before the fatal shot was fired and her photo matches up with Kennedy's location at z-315 of the film. In other words, her photo disproves Altgens' contention the fatal shot was fired down by where he was standing. Beyond that, she's a tough read. As Altgens, she would have been in perfect position to note a shot from the knoll, but failed to do so. But, when taken in isolation, she cancels out Altgens on at least one other point. Altgens heard at least two shots with the head shot being the second and last. Moorman heard at least two shots with the head shot being the first. As a result, their statements are impossible to reconcile.

Most of the other witnesses are equally confusing. Which makes studying any one of them, or relying on any one of them, pointless. When one studies them all, in the context of where they were standing, and what they saw happen in relation to the shots, however, one should come to some surprising conclusions. I know I did.

Conclusion number 1: the vast majority of witnesses heard three loud noises.

Conclusion number 2: the vast majority of those witnesses looking at Kennedy at the time of the first shot saw him react to this shot. This destroys the currently popular LN scenario holding that the first shot missed and Kennedy continued calmly waving for several seconds afterwards.

Conclusion number 3: the vast majority of witnesses noting a pattern to the shots thought the last two shots were closer together, with many noting that they were much closer together. This is also at odds with the currently popular scenario, particularly in that tests consistently show that people's perception of time slows down during tense moments, and that the expected result would be that people thought the last two shots were further apart, even if they were not. It should be noted, moreover, that the z-film suggests Kennedy and Connally were first hit closer together than Connally's getting hit was to the head shot, and that this suggests the possibility silenced ammunition was used for one or more of the shots.

Conclusion number 4: a surprising majority of the earliest witnesses to the head shot said there was a shot (or shots) after the head shot. This totally took me by surprise. When I first created my database, and began articulating the conclusions drawn from the database, virtually no one (beyond Tom Purvis) was claiming there was a shot just after the head shot. Now, many consider this shot to be a fact.

Edited by Pat Speer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thanks to Robert Prudhomme for bringing Warren Commission Document 298 to my attention, and to Jim DiEugenio for putting it in context with the April 27th memo from Redlich to Rankin.

And again thanks to Robert for helping me make sense of it all by posting information gathered from the testimony of Mary Moorman and James Altgens, which places the the limo for the first and final shots (sans Z-film dependency).. If I understand correctly, Moorman's testimony agrees with Altgens' regarding the first shot, and this gives me confidence in their testimony.

But there is one thing I'm not sure I understand correctly. According to both Moorman's and Altgens' testimony, the first shot occurred when the scene was as depicted in Z-frame 255. Okay, so they agree with each other. Problem is, JFK had already been hit prior that. Right? The Z-film has JFK being shot more than 1 1/2 seconds earlier. Of course, the Z-film could be wrong. But if we consider only Moorman's photo, JFK had to have reacted very quickly to the shot.

The problem with this hypothesis is that one has to figure out from where the extant Z-film got its frames depicting Kennedy bringing his hands up toward his throat just before slumping. Moorman shows only the slumping part.

Am I understanding this correctly? (This question is directed only to those who believe the Z-film has been altered.)

(Sorry Greg for going off topic. Though it sounds like you've given up on Pat.)

Altgens corresponds with extant Z-film frame 225. Note Jackie's gloved hand grasping the president's left arm raised to his throat as seen through the limo windshield in Altgens 6. Then note the exact same hand position in the extant Z-film frame 225. It matches to a tee.

The Moorman photo corresponds to extant Z-film frame 312. Both of these can be easily confirmed with distinct corresponding "features" within both the still photos and the film frames respectively. As an example one can draw an imaginary straight line from the Z-lens POV to the Moorman lens that passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle's windshield on the way to Moorman's lens. At the same time, one can draw a corresponding straight line from the reverse angle--from the Moorman lens POV to the Z-lens--that also passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle windshield on its way to the Zapruder lens.

I hope that helps. I can post a graphic tomorrow if you want.

Thanks Greg, that helped a bunch. (Though you meant Z255, not Z225 for the Altgens 6 shot.)

Now I understand better what Robert's points were, I think.

As I understand it now, there is a question as to when the shots quit, due to Moorman''s statements.

And as for Altgens, his statement (that he was 15 ft from the limo during the fatal head shot) indicates that the head shot really occurred further down the road than where Z313 shows it.

This is better than how I earlier understood Robert's post. Because rather than most the Z-footage being altered, it looks like just the latter part of it was. I assume it was altered to remove the limo-stop. The limo-stop would be pretty damning for the Secret Service.

This is pretty obvious so I'm sure it's been discussed a lot. But it seems that removing frames to speed up the limo during the limo-stop would be the way to go, followed by a good deal of touch-up work to remove jerkiness. By removing the limo-stop that way, the film would be shortened. The effect would be that the final shot on the revised film would occur closer to the TSBD than it really did.

The problem is that this process would also move everything closer to the TSBD. And so, for example, Altgens should be seen in Z313. Which he isn't. Back to the drawing board.

I don't know where Greg got his information from when he stated that the Altgens 6 photo corresponded to frame z225 of the Zapruder film. Most researchers agree it actually corresponds to frame z255.

Here is something to think about. Witnesses along Elm St. all seem to hear roughly 3-4 shots, yet those at the eastern end of Elm St. seem to hear them at different locations than those closer to the Triple Underpass. Anyone venture a guess why that might be?

Why move the head shot from 307 feet from the Sniper's Nest to 265 feet from the Sniper's Nest? Think of it this way. Even from the 6th floor, the advantage of height will diminish eventually. Hint: Why did we never see the Queen Mary (follow up car) immediately behind the limo in any of the reenactments, with SS agents standing on the running boards?

P.S.

Tom Purvis' research and ballistics "calculations" were a joke and, unfortunately, his nonsense still seems to be polluting this forum.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Robert,

I posted Tom's conclusions for Pat's benefit. It was too make sure Pat knew exactly what Tom believed.

Tom's value was the information he acquired first-hand from West.

chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The same way I created 3x the frame count for this extant zfilm span.

There were more to begin with.

Optical%20Flow.gif

Chris,

Excellent job! I can pick out details that I couldn't see in any of the online Z-films or the DVD. Will you be applying this process to additional sections of the Z-film?

Tom

Tom,

It isn't necessary to apply this to other parts of the film.

If you understand the excess frames idea, I suggest taking a hard look at my topic " Swan Song".

chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The problem with this hypothesis is that one has to figure out from where the extant Z-film got its frames depicting Kennedy bringing his hands up toward his throat just before slumping. Moorman shows only the slumping part."

The same way I created 3x the frame count for this extant zfilm span.

There were more to begin with.

Optical%20Flow.gif

Hey, that's pretty slick Chris.

I assume you copied frames and then moved the new ones ones along with the motion of the carsarrow-10x10.png.

Hey wait... that wouldn't work. Anything stationary would wiggle and thereby be blurred.

Please explain what you did.

EDIT: Oh sorry, I need to explain myself.

I was thinking that if you did what I think you did (which is, made repeated copies of frames and then moved each slightly to match the movement of the carsarrow-10x10.png. or in other words interpolated frames) then this looked like a promising technique to help with altering the Z film such that the slowarrow-10x10.png-down of the limo could be removed. First remove frames from where the limo slows down in order to make it appear not to slow down, and then do your interpolation technique to put all the stationary objects back into their correct locations.

I then realized that your technique (if I understand it correctly) wouldn't work so well on the stationary objects. it would make them wiggle, thus blurring them.

Sandy,

I'll reverse the process for you.

48fps slow motion, two thirds of the frames removed in a one second span.

How fast are they running? How fast would a limo appear to move at this frame rate (48fps slow motion with frames removed), going 15mph.

run.gif

Edited by Chris Davidson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My thanks to Robert Prudhomme for bringing Warren Commission Document 298 to my attention, and to Jim DiEugenio for putting it in context with the April 27th memo from Redlich to Rankin.

And again thanks to Robert for helping me make sense of it all by posting information gathered from the testimony of Mary Moorman and James Altgens, which places the the limo for the first and final shots (sans Z-film dependency).. If I understand correctly, Moorman's testimony agrees with Altgens' regarding the first shot, and this gives me confidence in their testimony.

But there is one thing I'm not sure I understand correctly. According to both Moorman's and Altgens' testimony, the first shot occurred when the scene was as depicted in Z-frame 255. Okay, so they agree with each other. Problem is, JFK had already been hit prior that. Right? The Z-film has JFK being shot more than 1 1/2 seconds earlier. Of course, the Z-film could be wrong. But if we consider only Moorman's photo, JFK had to have reacted very quickly to the shot.

The problem with this hypothesis is that one has to figure out from where the extant Z-film got its frames depicting Kennedy bringing his hands up toward his throat just before slumping. Moorman shows only the slumping part.

Am I understanding this correctly? (This question is directed only to those who believe the Z-film has been altered.)

(Sorry Greg for going off topic. Though it sounds like you've given up on Pat.)

Altgens corresponds with extant Z-film frame 225. Note Jackie's gloved hand grasping the president's left arm raised to his throat as seen through the limo windshield in Altgens 6. Then note the exact same hand position in the extant Z-film frame 225. It matches to a tee.

The Moorman photo corresponds to extant Z-film frame 312. Both of these can be easily confirmed with distinct corresponding "features" within both the still photos and the film frames respectively. As an example one can draw an imaginary straight line from the Z-lens POV to the Moorman lens that passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle's windshield on the way to Moorman's lens. At the same time, one can draw a corresponding straight line from the reverse angle--from the Moorman lens POV to the Z-lens--that also passes directly between the motor cop's torso and his motorcycle windshield on its way to the Zapruder lens.

I hope that helps. I can post a graphic tomorrow if you want.

Thanks Greg, that helped a bunch. (Though you meant Z255, not Z225 for the Altgens 6 shot.)

Now I understand better what Robert's points were, I think.

As I understand it now, there is a question as to when the shots quit, due to Moorman''s statements.

And as for Altgens, his statement (that he was 15 ft from the limo during the fatal head shot) indicates that the head shot really occurred further down the road than where Z313 shows it.

This is better than how I earlier understood Robert's post. Because rather than most the Z-footage being altered, it looks like just the latter part of it was. I assume it was altered to remove the limo-stop. The limo-stop would be pretty damning for the Secret Service.

This is pretty obvious so I'm sure it's been discussed a lot. But it seems that removing frames to speed up the limo during the limo-stop would be the way to go, followed by a good deal of touch-up work to remove jerkiness. By removing the limo-stop that way, the film would be shortened. The effect would be that the final shot on the revised film would occur closer to the TSBD than it really did.

The problem is that this process would also move everything closer to the TSBD. And so, for example, Altgens should be seen in Z313. Which he isn't. Back to the drawing board.

I don't know where Greg got his information from when he stated that the Altgens 6 photo corresponded to frame z225 of the Zapruder film. Most researchers agree it actually corresponds to frame z255.

Here is something to think about. Witnesses along Elm St. all seem to hear roughly 3-4 shots, yet those at the eastern end of Elm St. seem to hear them at different locations than those closer to the Triple Underpass. Anyone venture a guess why that might be?

Why move the head shot from 307 feet from the Sniper's Nest to 265 feet from the Sniper's Nest? Think of it this way. Even from the 6th floor, the advantage of height will diminish eventually. Hint: Why did we never see the Queen Mary (follow up car) immediately behind the limo in any of the reenactments, with SS agents standing on the running boards?

P.S.

Tom Purvis' research and ballistics "calculations" were a joke and, unfortunately, his nonsense still seems to be polluting this forum.

I corrected my typo from Z-225 to Z-255 in the original post. Sorry for the confusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps I should ask the moderators to change the title of this thread to: "The (JFK) Zapruder Windmills of Those Suffering from ADD."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now