Mr. Caddy - was E.Howard Hunt one of the 'tramps'?

[Sandy Larsen]

Doin' my best here, Jim. That damn well looks like Harrelson. And of all the so-and-so's who claim to have been there, I credit CVH the most.

I would still like to hear Doug Caddy on further resemblances between Hunt and the street crossing man in Cancellare.

David,

Are you saying that Charles Harrelson claimed to have been in Daily Plaza that day?

[Michael Walton]

Oh please, let us not start all this again...

I agree with Jim DiEugenio. Like the 9/11 Truthers movement, I think people just get carried away with the JFK assassination. I say this as a 100% conspiracy believer. In a way, it makes people who are otherwise sane look like "kooks" and plays right into the hands of people like McAdams, Posner, Myers (with his ever-present Emmy award sitting in the background) and others who get on TV, smirk, roll their eyes, and utter, "absolutely ridiculous." All of them paid shills to continue braying about the "brand."

We know better but when the community constantly comes up with far-out notions, or beats old saws with the stick over and over, it muddles the picture. Badly.

Meanwhile, there is plenty of evidence to show what really happened that day and who was behind it without worrying about who the tramps were.

But regarding the photo above, I just don't think the planners would have ever taken the risk of having a half a dozen intelligence ops crawling around Dealey after the shooting, risking being photographed. The whole shooting took no more than 6 seconds, a very, very fast event, then everything just peeled back behind the curtain...and it was over.

Yes, I'm sure they had some people on the ground trying to blend in and listen to what was being said (that's what intelligence ops do).

[Ron Ecker]

Either the plotters took the risk of having some of them photographed at the scene, or else they went to the trouble (why?) to make it look like some were on the scene. Rip Robertson lookalike at Houston and Main, Hunt lookalike crossing Elm, throw in the Hemming lookalike standing not far from Robertson. A Lucien Conein lookalike has been IDed as someone else, but all of the lookalikes not being the actual persons seems to stretch the odds.

It's speculation, of course, and maybe it makes us look like "kooks" (was that the purpose, were they that ingenius?), but are we supposed to ignore them (real or lookalikes) as if they aren't there?

[Paul Brancato]

Michael - on the surface it would seem odd that so many CIA operatives would, if they were involved, take the chance of being photographed. But Ron's point is well taken. I would add that since none of the photo evidence had proven anything it's entirely possible that the propagandists knew that would be the case beforehand, and that the subsequent confusion might be a useful diversion.

I believe that Harrelson confessed. Is that not true?

[Michael Walton]

Paul,

Yes, you are correct that Harrelson confessed. But so did Beverly Oliver, Madeline Brown, James Files, and others like them, who met someone who was a believer in conspiracy, thought they'd found the Rosetta Stone of the case, and became famous for solving the crime.

I'm sorry but I just don't put too much stock in these people's words. I know this may be hard to believe, both of us being conspiracy believers. This was a well-planned, well-coordinated plot with the shooters and their escorts ready to go. This was back in the 60's - times of innocence - when politicians drove around in open cars, where there was a general trust between the people and the politician. Just the day before, Dallas citizens saw JFK in San Antonio driving around in an open car, smiles and sunshine.

The plotters were banking on this, a quick 6-second ambush amidst smiles and sunshine - from the point where he reappears in the Z film from behind the sign until the double head shot - and definitely not in the middle of the city, but at the end when the parade was essentially over, with crowds thinning and where shooters could be positioned for a quick getaway.

That's why, too, the witness statements are so confusing because remember, *nobody* was standing around saying, "Oh, here come the shots...don't forget to count them."

The only part of the plot that went awry was the Texas Theater. I'll always believe that Oswald was supposed to have been murdered there, shot because he had a gun and "threatened" a policeman. Then it would have been exactly what we heard after Monday - the lone, crazed assassin story.

But, fortunately, for us Oswald was able to peel away the curtain just a little bit to let us in - he was a patsy; he knew the back yard photos were faked; he said he was out front during the motorcade. So make it a very, very ugly Plan B for him, send in Ruby to finish it on national TV no less.

But oh, wait...look at this. Here come three "tramps" - oh, yeah, the plotters of the murder forgot them and here they come - Hunt, Harrelson, Sturgis. I'm sorry but I don't think so.

[David Andrews]

Doin' my best here, Jim. That damn well looks like Harrelson. And of all the so-and-so's who claim to have been there, I credit CVH the most.

I would still like to hear Doug Caddy on further resemblances between Hunt and the street crossing man in Cancellare.

David,

Are you saying that Charles Harrelson claimed to have been in Daily Plaza that day?

From Mr. Simkin's Spartacus capsule bio of Harrelson:

"When he was arrested [for the rifle assassination of a federal court judge] he confessed to being one of the gunman who killed President John F. Kennedy. He later withdrew this confession but he was eventually convicted of the murder of [Judge] Wood and sentenced to two life sentences."

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKharrelson.htm

I do not as yet believe Harrelson was one of the shooters. But his own son has given indications in the press that he believes CVH was in Dealey.

I'm bowing out now because I made myself a pledge not to start or further contentious topics here. But I do believe that Gerry Hemming is photographed by the Elm/Houston reflecting pool pergola in Cancellare. See this link and click photo to enlarge:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=7

There are other versions of this Cancellare shot online that will allow you to look more closely at "Hemming" and at the figure he's apparently talking to. It's interesting that the policeman in the colonnade above "Hemming" has the time to give attention to the "Hemming" figure, when there's a crowd pressing around that cop.

The "Hemming" figure more famously appears behind the crowd on Houston, but I can't shake the suspicion that he's been pasted into that photo.

Paul B. - sorry to have diverted your thread. I'm out.

Edited March 22, 2016 by David Andrews

[Sandy Larsen]

Doin' my best here, Jim. That damn well looks like Harrelson. And of all the so-and-so's who claim to have been there, I credit CVH the most.

I would still like to hear Doug Caddy on further resemblances between Hunt and the street crossing man in Cancellare.

David,

Are you saying that Charles Harrelson claimed to have been in Daily Plaza that day?

From Mr. Simkin's Spartacus capsule bio of Harrelson:

"When he was arrested [for the rifle assassination of a federal judge] he confessed to being one of the gunman who killed President John F. Kennedy. He later withdrew this confession but he was eventually convicted of the murder of Wood and sentenced to two life sentences."

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKharrelson.htm

I do not as yet believe Harrelson was one of the shooters. But his own son has given indications in the press that he believes CVH was in Dealey.

The reason I asked, David, is because I vaguely recalled Harrelson stating that the tramp did indeed look like him, but that it wasn't him.

But now that you mention it, I do recall the incident where he confessed to being one of the JFK gunmen. I'd forgotten that.

[Sandy Larsen]

I'm bowing out now because I made myself a pledge not to start or further contentious topics here. But I do believe that Gerry Hemming is photographed by the Elm/Houston reflecting pool pergola in Cancellare. See this link and click photo to enlarge:

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=33&pos=7

Okay, call me a kook. But when I compare the supposed Hunt character with the people around him (in the large photo linked to by David Andrews), it is clear to me that his face has been obfuscated. Not only is his face more blurry than the others in his vicinity, but the shadow from his hat doesn't match the shadow from a similar hat worn by another guy.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Paul Brancato]

David - no problem. The reason I started the thread and then restated my question is that Douglass Caddy was Hunt's Watergate lawyer, and he posts here often and generously. He has some views about the 'alien presence' that are out of the mainstream and for which he credits Hunt as the source. My first statement of the question, referring to the tramps, has been responsible for the tangents, and also made it easy for mr. Caddy to essentially avoid the question I was asking. He may not know the answer, and I have made it clear that I am aware of that. But here we are in 2016 having someone who communicates directly with us here who not only knew Hunt, but was his lawyer. I would like to know what he really thinks about Hunt's possible involvement far more than I want to engage in photographic evidence or confessions.

Can we all agree, notwithstanding photo evidence and confessions, that Nixon referring to the BOP thing was most likely code for the JFK assassination? If we can, the we need to take seriously the possibility that E Howard Hunt, and Frank Sturgis, and possibly Bernard Barker were involved. Do we so lightly dismiss the statements of Marita Lorenz? Don't we all remember the first time we heard the name Frank Sturgis and the suggestion that he was a shooter? I think we should get back to that moment. And by the way David, that does lead to Hemming, doesn't it?

[Martin Blank]

Douglas, this is a rare time when I disagree with you. First

It looks like Hunt is the tramp. And Harrelson is there, smirking and having

a urine stain on his pant leg. The other man's identity has never been

satisfied. He definitely is not Sturgis.

The man in the raincoat attire looks like Hunt also. Supposedly Hunt said

he was in the postal annex (I think it's called) on a high floor watching the

assassination with binoculars.

I don't know which is true, if either. But there is a tramp photo where

Dorothy Hunt, Howard's wife, is in the picture with her hand to her mouth as

if shocked while looking at the 3 tramps. The 2 of them in the same picture.

Kathy C

Kathy - that photo is on sensationalist/disinfo sites. The woman is a bystander in Dealey and looks nothing like Dorothy. She's shocked because she thinks she's seeing the cops arresting the perps. You can see her in other photos outside the TSBD. She's not even looking at the old tramp.

If it were Dorothy and Howard - why would Dorothy be shocked? She was an intel pro.

I agree that Howard Hunt is not the old tramp. I have strong leanings toward accepting the tall tramp as Charles Harrelson, though.

I, too, have wondered about that lackadaisical, hatted figure crossing the street in the Cancellare photo - wondered if it is Hunt. It's important in the Dealey pix to keep an eye out for persons who look like they're from out of town. There are few men in raincoats in the photos - other than Danny Arce, and the policemen who apparently expected a long day, chance of rain.

It's also interesting that Tall Tramp and Foreign Tramp look like they bought their polo shirts in the same place.

President John F Kennedy greeted a crowd on a misty morning rain in Fort Worth at 8:45 a.m. central standard time. The weather in Dallas had been rainy, but the sun came out before the president's plane had landed. The plexiglass "bubble" top had been removed from the car. The Secret Service knew the president preferred not to use the bubble, unless it was inclement weather, according to media reports.

​where would they have hung their raincoats up?

Edited March 22, 2016 by Martin Blank

[David Josephs]

The men in the Tramps photos and Abrahms, Doyle and Gedney are not the same people. Obviously - if we are thinking Hunt or Harrelson...

One set of Tramps was brought to Decker who let them leave while the three with arrest records claim to have been in jail with Ozzie over that weekend.

Bass, Wise, and the cast of characters make it very plain the men in these images are not the same as those "arrested".

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21791&page=17#entry300813 is the link to my post about what Harkness says about those taken off the train...

[David Andrews]

Douglas, this is a rare time when I disagree with you. First

It looks like Hunt is the tramp. And Harrelson is there, smirking and having

a urine stain on his pant leg. The other man's identity has never been

satisfied. He definitely is not Sturgis.

The man in the raincoat attire looks like Hunt also. Supposedly Hunt said

he was in the postal annex (I think it's called) on a high floor watching the

assassination with binoculars.

I don't know which is true, if either. But there is a tramp photo where

Dorothy Hunt, Howard's wife, is in the picture with her hand to her mouth as

if shocked while looking at the 3 tramps. The 2 of them in the same picture.

Kathy C

Kathy - that photo is on sensationalist/disinfo sites. The woman is a bystander in Dealey and looks nothing like Dorothy. She's shocked because she thinks she's seeing the cops arresting the perps. You can see her in other photos outside the TSBD. She's not even looking at the old tramp.

If it were Dorothy and Howard - why would Dorothy be shocked? She was an intel pro.

I agree that Howard Hunt is not the old tramp. I have strong leanings toward accepting the tall tramp as Charles Harrelson, though.

I, too, have wondered about that lackadaisical, hatted figure crossing the street in the Cancellare photo - wondered if it is Hunt. It's important in the Dealey pix to keep an eye out for persons who look like they're from out of town. There are few men in raincoats in the photos - other than Danny Arce, and the policemen who apparently expected a long day, chance of rain.

It's also interesting that Tall Tramp and Foreign Tramp look like they bought their polo shirts in the same place.

President John F Kennedy greeted a crowd on a misty morning rain in Fort Worth at 8:45 a.m. central standard time. The weather in Dallas had been rainy, but the sun came out before the president's plane had landed. The plexiglass "bubble" top had been removed from the car. The Secret Service knew the president preferred not to use the bubble, unless it was inclement weather, according to media reports.

​where would they have hung their raincoats up?

I don't understand your question Martin. I just named the most conspicuous persons with raincoats/topcoats on, and said that the "Hunt" figure is among the few, so maybe he's from out of town.

[Joseph McBride]

Bill Moyers, who "coordinated the President's visit to Texas from Austin," in the words of

the HSCA, told the HSCA that it was his decision to remove the bubble-top from the limousine at Love Field. The HSCA reports that "The final

decision in this matter was made by Bill Moyers. Moyers had been on the phone [from Austin] to [his Dallas

representative] Ms. [Elizabeth] Harris, informing her that

the President did not want the bubble. He told Harris to 'get that Goddamned bubble off unless it's pouring rain.' . . . Shortly

thereafter the weather began to clear. Ms. Harris approached [Forrest] Sorrels [of the Secret Service] about the bubble-top and together they had the

special agents remove the glass top."

Edited March 31, 2016 by Joseph McBride

[Ron Ecker]

He told Harris to 'get that Goddamned bubble off unless it's pouring rain.'

That was nice talk coming from an ordained Baptist minister. I guess that's what working for Lyndon Johnson did to you.

Moyers was a top LBJ aide during the 1960 election campaign, and worked in the White House after the assassination. According to Wikipedia, in 1963 he was Deputy Director of the Peace Corps. I wonder what he was doing coordinating JFK's trip?

[Paul Brancato]

Movers has a lot to answer for, and he owes the public an explanation. Unfortunately he has never explained his actions that day, or opened himself to questions about his relationship to LBJ. He was obviously loyal to him.