Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Guest]

 

[Michael Walton]

Bart I know and agree the general if not grainy features  of your photo does look like  him down  on  the  Annex. I  just see him also  up on the steps too.

Note too that the whole cluster of  folks  up there looks  as if none moved 55 seconds  after the shooting. So my main concern  is if it's  not  BL up on the steps who is it? Even PM is still up there.

[Guest]

I don't understand some of you people......there is nothing but personal beliefs for seeing Lovelady in Darnell on the steps. You have no evidence to back your beliefs and prefer to eat the lemon called their WC testimonies. Think for a second about that!

Show me the visual still that confirms your assertions. Show me his hair that even in such a contrasty situation would show up as dark and not bleached blond. And don't for a second try and tell me that you see a checkered shirt as there is none.2

So the excellent bit of ROKC photographic proof above in conjunction with their statements until their WC testimony which is filled with untruths is of no value then?

 

 

[Michael Walton]

I don't understand some of you people......there is nothing but personal beliefs for seeing Lovelady in Darnell on the steps. You have no evidence to back your beliefs and prefer to eat the lemon called their WC testimonies. Think for a second about that!

I have to go with what my eyes are seeing, Bart.  You've done great work on PM but the GIF below, at the very beginning, looks like a bald-headed guy and the pattern of his shirt looks like Lovelady. This is by no means scientific, of course, as many other theories of the case are unscientific as well. But the bald guy is almost in the exact same spot as he was when he was up a little more and leaning over as seen in that other footage and as seen in Altgens.

Like I said, too, your "two guys down on the Annex" also look like Lovelady and the other guy (sorry I can't remember his name).

Again, look at the very first frame or two of the GIF below - there's like a moment of clarity in it and it really does look like Lovelady.  Is it?  Are your two Annex guys Lovelady?  It does leave a quandary in your otherwise well-done PM.You really, truly have to ask yourself - who is the bald guy up there on the steps in the GIF below?

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

The thing that's worrisome for me is in that Dunkel GIF, I know it's supposed to be Lovelady down there on the Annex with the cop running toward the building.  But I think it looks more like Lovelady is still on the steps up there.  I think that because he was pretty bald and the sun is bright on the head on the step.  It just seems to look like him and it makes sense in my mind that had he had not moved yet from his "leaning over" stance when the limo went by.  I think, too, that after the shots were fired, there may have just been like a "standing around and looking around" moment for the folks up there in the steps area.

The cop supposedly ran into the building 90(?) sec after the shooting give or take. So it just seems and looks like it's Lovelady up there.

Michael,

Sorry to be so detail-oriented, but if you'll read my longish, VENTING post to Gerry near the bottom of the previous page, you'll see that real-deal Lovelady actually stood in two different places on the steps during the motorcade / assassination, and that what we're looking at here in this Couch-Darnell blowup (i.e., with Sandy's and my recently-discovered "Lovelady" talking with our recently-discovered dressed-in-black "Gloria Calvery" while her, yep, recently-discovered "Dressed In White, Even Wearing A White Headscarf Colleague" is trying to pull her up the steps) shows him back in the first of those two positions, back where he's not only generally out of the way of the people walking up the steps, but also, I assume, back near his oh-so precious (not unfortunately not visible in Couch-Darnell) soda pop [and yummy yummy sack lunch(?)] on the steps, next to the wall.

In other words, when he was leaning forward in Weigman, he was doing so in his 2nd position, i.e.. next to the center hand rail, and now in Couch-Darnell he has returned to his first position, by the wall.

--  Tommy

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

Tom - OK, I grabbed a frame from the Gerda animated GIF.  It's not great but hopefully the image below will at least give you an idea.  I was under the impression that some say that BL with the other guy are walking down the Annex as seen by the two yellow lines on left (again this is not a great grab but they were in that general vicinity).

Then others say that BL is still up on the steps as marked by yellow arrow. I believe Bart thinks that BL is down where the yellow lines are.  My only concern is when you look at the other clear GIF of the steps area, it looks like BL.

Obviously BL can't be in two places at the same time. Personally, after seeing that close up, I think he's still up on the steps as it does look like him.  And then of course back on the top and in shadow is PM.

Does this make sense? What do you think?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-CxV1FuWEVhX1FBQXc

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Tom - OK, I grabbed a frame from the Gerda animated GIF.  It's not great but hopefully the image below will at least give you an idea.  I was under the impression that some say that BL with the other guy are walking down the Annex as seen by the two yellow lines on left (again this is not a great grab but they were in that general vicinity).

Then others say that BL is still up on the [left side of the] steps [in Couch-Darnell]  ... as marked by yellow arrow. I believe Bart thinks that BL is down where the yellow lines are.  My only concern is when you look at the other clear GIF of the steps area, it looks like BL.

Obviously BL can't be in two places at the same time. Personally, after seeing that close up, I think he's still up on the steps as it does look like him.  And then of course back on the top and in shadow is PM.

Does this make sense? What do you think?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-CxV1FuWEVhX1FBQXc

[emphasis and explications added by T. Graves]

 

Dear Michael,

Why does this have to be so gosh-darned complicated?  

What you've said in your post (this one right here, Michael) is pretty much what I was trying to tell confused newbie Gerry a little earlier on this thread!  (Am I really all that hard to understand?)  

Now, when I say my multi-colored "venting post" (which one, right?), I'm talking about the one near the bottom of the previous page (page 6, this thread) in which I sign off by writing "I'm outta here."

 

Have you read that whole post yet, and looked at the blown-up images in the previous post or two (i.e., before it) that it references?

 

By the way, Bart Kamp's "Shelley and Lovelady" (in the red circle in the pertinent blow-up I'm talking about) are walking down or across Elm Street Extension, not "Annex".

 

You can knock yourself out if you want too, Michael, but why go to the trouble of "grabbing" frames from Gerda's clip when the pertinent and probably best "grabs" of said clip are already here on this forum?  Like in my aforementioned posts which immediately preceding my likewise-aforementioned "Venting-At-Confused-Newbie-Gerry" aka "I'm Outta Here" post, this thread, for example?

And in other threads, as well.  In fact, they're scattered all over the place!

--  Tommy

 

PS  The "others" you reference in you post, above, are basically Sandy Larsen, Bob "M.I.A" Prudhomme (who gave me the idea in the first place) and Little OId Me (so far), but it sounds like you and a few other members are thinking about joining us on this, now.

Welcome!

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

OK thanks and glad this cleared up. Yes, I did read your other post but it's a little hard to understand. But I did read it. I wanted to make sure too that I was seeing the right thing because yes I agree Gerda makes great stuff and when she combined those two clips and stabilized them it looks like they're not the same thing - but we know they are. But it can be confusing. But anyway - yeah that *has to be* Lovelady on the steps. I know it looks like him down on the extension (I could have sworn too that little street was called Elm Annex but was wrong] with his buddy.

I'm just thinking he hardly moved up on the steps and actually the others standing up on the steps hardly moved either. Pure speculation of course but it just seems to make more sense he'd still be up there like the rest of them 75 seconds after the shooting. You don't have to reply to this as I can detect frustration on your previous post. But just wanted to double check.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

OK thanks and glad this cleared up. Yes, I did read your other post but it's a little hard to understand. But I did read it. I wanted to make sure too that I was seeing the right thing because yes I agree Gerda makes great stuff and when she combined those two clips and stabilized them it looks like they're not the same thing - but we know they are. But it can be confusing. But anyway - yeah that *has to be* Lovelady on the steps. I know it looks like him down on the extension (I could have sworn too that little street was called Elm Annex but was wrong] with his buddy.

I'm just thinking he hardly moved up on the steps and actually the others standing up on the steps hardly moved either. Pure speculation of course but it just seems to make more sense he'd still be up there like the rest of them 75 seconds after the shooting. You don't have to reply to this as I can detect frustration on your previous post. But just wanted to double check.

 

Dear Michael,

I just want to make sure that you do understand that in this frame from the Hughes film:

[to be copied and pasted here later, if necessary]

Lovelady is standing next to the left wall.

 

 

But in this detail from Altgens6 (which was taken about ten seconds later):

[to be copied and pasted here later, if necessary]

Billy Nolan Lovelady aka "Doorman" has moved about six feet to his left, and is now leaning forward near the center hand rail.

 

 

As can be seen more clearly in this Weigman frame (the one in which there are no cars in the foreground):

See, he leans forward (in some kind of strange synchronization with Prayer Man's movements, btw.  Gee, I wonder if they could both be reacting to having heard the shot that caused JFK to reach for his throat in Altgens6 ?)

[to be copied and pasted here later, if necessary]

 

 

And finally, sometime between the Weigman frame, above, and the time that Couch-Darnell start filming the front steps of the TSBD about 30 seconds later --

Lovelady has already moved back to his original location (next to the wall) where he is photographically "captured" in Couch-Darnell while talking to a Largish Woman In Black Who's Even Wearing A Black Headscarf who's being "pulled up the steps" by a probable colleague who's dressed All In White Including A White Headscarf, just like one of the four or five headscarf-wearing gals who were watching the motorcade together down on the north side of Elm Street.)

[to be copied and pasted here later, if necessary]

 

 

So as you can see, Michael, Billy Lovelady (like my paragraphs) was "all over the place" on those steps during the motorcade / assassination.

 

 

--  Tommy

PS  Please let me know if you know the images I'm talking about here, and you don't need me to copy and paste them here in order for you to figure out what the heck I'm rambling on about.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

Yes I know them all
Hughes = that shot down Houston and you can see him on steps
Altgens = the one where's leaning to see the limo
Wiegman = he's in the middle of the steps leaning over (similar to Altgens)

Hughes - it's also the one that shows an ape like version of BL back on the steps lingering, talking, looking around.  He can be seen at the end of it.

Wiegman - there is like a 2 or 3 frame sequence showing the waving black guy and umbrella guy sitting on curb.  Way off topic of course, but "interesting" how they just kind of plopped down on the curb.  Both of them too - what are the odds of two "strangers" just plopping down like that side by side in a conspicuous way? We'll never know of course.

Funny thing about it - black waving guy was right there for the first shots, the ones hitting Kennedy in the throat and back.  Yet, he just cooly stood there waving.  Meanwhile, the guy further down on the steps suddenly lurches when HE realizes what's happening when Kennedy's head blows up. Probably nothing to it though.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Yes I know them all
Hughes = that shot down Houston and you can see him on steps
Altgens = the one where's leaning to see the limo
Wiegman = he's in the middle of the steps leaning over (similar to Altgens)

Hughes - it's also the one that shows an ape like version of BL back on the steps lingering, talking, looking around.  He can be seen at the end of it.

[...]

Dear Michael,

No comment on the two-frame Weigman GIF that shows Lovelady's and Prayer Man's synchronized body movements?  Isn't it logical to assume that Lovelady leaned forward to (irrationally but naturally) "see" and "hear" better what was going on down on Elm Street, and that Prayer Man lowered his camera in order to see what was going on down there better, too, as well as to see what was going on closer to him?  

Both of their movements probably being in response to the sound of the first shot, maybe even the shot that was captured by the nearly simultaneously-taken Altgens6 photo which Ike Altgens said, iirc, he took almost as as a reflexive finger action upon his hearing the first shot ring out?

--  Tommy

PS  In an earlier post you said something about Baker's running toward (or was it entering?) the TSBD about "90 seconds" (iirc) after the assassination.  You do realize, don't you, that Couch and Darnell started filming the front steps and the general area around the TSBD only about 25 seconds after the last shot?

PPS  "Ape-like version of Billy Lovelady" ... uh .... exhaling cigarette smoke through his mouth while jutting his chin out to do so (like some smokers jut their chin out while exhaling cigarette smoke through their mouth?

What's the matter, you don't think that's the real-deal Lovelady?

You goin' Cinque / Fetzer on me?  (lol)

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Michael,

So, no comment on the two-frame Weigman GIF that shows Lovelady's and Prayer Man's synchronized body movements?  Isn't it logical to assume that Lovelady leaned forward to (irrationally but naturally) "see" and "hear" better what was going on down on Elm Street, and that Prayer Man lowered his camera in order to see what was going on down there better, too, as well as to see what was going on closer to him?  

Both of their movements probably being in response to the sound of the first shot, maybe even the shot that was captured by the nearly simultaneously-taken Altgens6 photo which Ike Altgens said, iirc, he took almost as as a reflexive finger action upon his hearing the first shot ring out?

--  Tommy

PS  In an earlier post you said something about Baker's running toward (or was it entering?) the TSBD about "90 seconds" (iirc) after the assassination.  You do realize, don't you, that Couch and Darnell started filming the front steps and the general area around the TSBD only about 25 seconds after the last shot?

PPS  "Ape-like version of Billy Lovelady" ... uh .... exhaling cigarette smoke through his mouth while jutting his chin out to do so (like some smokers jut their chin out while exhaling cigarette smoke through their mouth?

What's the matter, you don't think that's the real-deal Lovelady?

You goin' Cinque / Fetzer on me?  (lol)

edited and bumped

Edited April 17, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

If there is one thing clear in the GIF above is the fact that Lovelady makes his way down in a straight way. No sliding sideways. Pure make-believe..

Add on the enlargement I have shown a few times already that Lovelady is moving down with Shelley in pursuit.

Add on that looking at Lovelady's figure and characteristics and comparing it with Blondie in Darnell requires a lot of imagination which has no factual basis.

Add on the statements of Lovelady and Shelley before the WC hoax

Add on the Couch still.

Add on Frazier......

 

[Thomas Graves]

5 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

If there is one thing clear in the GIF above is the fact that Lovelady makes his way down in a straight way. No sliding sideways. Pure make-believe..

Add on the enlargement I have shown a few times already that Lovelady is moving down with Shelley in pursuit.

Add on that looking at Lovelady's figure and characteristics and comparing it with Blondie in Darnell requires a lot of imagination which has no factual basis.

Add on the statements of Lovelady and Shelley before the WC hoax

Add on the Couch still.

Add on Frazier......

 

Dear Bart,

Who said anything about Lovelady's "sliding sideways"?

Seein' as how, as regards what took place on the TSBD's steps immediately after the shots rang out, there was about 30 seconds of photographic non-coverage (of said area) between the two-frame Weigman GIF and the Couch and Darnell films, i.e., plenty of time for Lovelady to either slither "unseen" photographically-speaking, back to his precious soda pop (and sack lunch?) by the wall, OR for him to walk "straight down the steps" so as to start "following the limo" as it, in turn, was approaching the Triple Underpass.

Regardless, we do now know that in Couch-Darnell, Lovelady can be seen back over by that wall (where he was earlier caught on film by Hughes, and where a soda pop bottle was later spotted by an eagle-eyed "researcher" -- you?), talking with Gloria Jean Calvery on the steps.

--  Tommy

Edited April 17, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Gerry Simone]

On 4/16/2017 at 3:00 AM, Thomas Graves said:

 

Gerry,

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend much more time with you on this.

We all know that real-deal Lovelady was standing in two different locations on the steps during the motorcade / assassination.  First he was standing next to the left wall (but on the steps) and was captured on the Hughes film doing so as the limo was approaching the TSBD and turning left onto Elm Street. ............. Then he moved a few feet to HIS LEFT and ended up next to the center hand railing on the steps, evidently to get a better view of the limo as it traveled down Elm Street.  (No, he wasn't captured on film actually walking to that position, but that's where he was while the shots started to ring out, as evidenced by his so-called "Doorman" position in Altgen's 6, and in the Weigman film, one of whose frames you posted above.)

But for the purposes of our conversation here between you and I, none of that really matters. Just consider it a little friendly "background information".

What many of us are trying to figure out is what Lovelady did during the first thirty seconds or so after the assassination, and, unfortunately, neither Altgen6 nor Weigman can help us there.

In trying to figure out what Lovelady (and yes, Shelley would be nice, too) did immediately after the assassination, we've been relying photographically on two different blown-up parts of that that dizzying Couch-Darnell clip I posted above.  Why? Because those blown-up parts show two different possible Loveladys, about twenty feet apart from each other -- one of whom is walking down Elm Street Extension, apparently with another man (Bill Shelly?), and the other one who is standing on the TSBD steps while talking with a woman dressed in black who, in turn, is being pulled up the steps by a woman dressed in white!

And the perplexing thing is that both of these guys resemble Billy Nolan Lovelady!  Especially the guy who is talking to the Woman In Black on the steps in the Couch-Darnell blow-up.

To reiterate, especially for you I posted Couch-Darnell enlargements of the Couch-Darnell scenes in which both of those guys can be looked at and analyzed in their respective blow-ups without your getting all dizzy and everything.

Good luck!

I'm outta here.

--  Tommy

[Note: I maxed out the "I'm outta here" so that Mikey might be able to find, and then actually read, this post.  LOL]

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the well-crafted and detailed backgrounder.  I will study this further.