Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You have nothing Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves besides assumption.

You disregard

Frazier's testimony

Molina's testimony

Shelley's first statement

Lovelady's statement from the FBI on Nov 22

Wrong!

Mine and Thomas's scenario, based on what the Darnell clip shows us (Gloria Calvery talking to Billy Lovelady on the steps, with her coworker friend standing next to her) matches perfectly EVERY statement made by Lovelady and Shelley in 1963! It is only in 1964 that their statements -- having been influenced by the WC to discredit Vicky Adams -- wander from the truth.

Shelley and Lovelady said that they left the steps immediate after hearing the shots. Shelley said that they met Gloria Calvery at the corner concrete island. After which they said they returned to the steps and Shelley went inside to call his wife.All of that is in agreement with what we see in Darnell.

What we see in the Darnell clip is that Lovelady and Shelley had just returned to the steps, and Shelley is inside calling his wife. Which is why we don't see him in the clip. We do see Lovelady back on the steps talking to Gloria Calvery.

As for Molina, he said "Yes, she [Gloria Calvery] came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl." The other girl is Woman in White, who we see in Darnell tugging on Calvery's arm, trying to get her to go inside. Once inside, Molina saw them.

Mine & Thomas's scenario is also also supported by Wesley Frazier's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction [toward JFK's limo] but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

So you are wrong on every charge!

 

8 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Patricia Ann Donaldson, dude have you ever heard of Google????

Why do you expect me to search out Patricia Ann Donaldson in order to prove your claim? (Which BTW, as I showed above, is wrong.)
 

[Sandy Larsen]

And BTW Bart, Shelley's and Lovelady's early (1963) statements disagree with your scenario regarding their walking down Elm Street extension immediately after the shooting. None of their statement say a thing about walking down the extension. It wasn't till 1964 -- when the plot to discredit Victoria Adam's was hatched -- that they say anything about walking down that way.

And when they did talk about that -- again, not until 1964 -- they also said they waited on the steps 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to arrive (which we know is a lie) and stayed on the corner concrete island for a few minutes (which we know is a lie).

Thomas and I say the whole thing was a lie. The stuff they started saying only in 1964 was all a lie.

(For others reading this, Bart accepts the part about Shelley and Lovelady walking down the extension and back into the west entrance of the TSBD. He rejects only the timing parts of that testimony. He has to reject that because it is known to be wrong. In contrast, Thomas and I see no reason to believe any of it. It's all a fabrication to discredit Victoria Adams.)

(NOTE: I believe I am portraying Thomas's position correctly.)

 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Wrong!

The clothes don't match!

Woman in White (below) is wearing all white, including scarf.

Woman in Black (below) is wearing all very dark colors, EXCEPT a grayish colored skirt.
     (Not gray in the color version of the frame, of course.)

Thomas and I have identified both women. You have identified neither and appear to be in denial.

 

(Note:The inset is a frame from the Zapruder film.)

 

WRONG!

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Wrong!

Mine and Thomas's scenario, based on what the Darnell clip shows us (Gloria Calvery talking to Billy Lovelady on the steps, with her coworker friend standing next to her) matches perfectly EVERY statement made by Lovelady and Shelley in 1963! It is only in 1964 that their statements -- having been influenced by the WC to discredit Vicky Adams -- wander from the truth. 

Shelley and Lovelady said that they left the steps immediate after hearing the shots. Shelley said that they met Gloria Calvery at the corner concrete island. After which they said they returned to the steps and Shelley went inside to call his wife.All of that is in agreement with what we see in Darnell.

What we see in the Darnell clip is that Lovelady and Shelley had just returned to the steps, and Shelley is inside calling his wife. All done inside 15 seconds after the shooting, wow! Which is why we don't see him in the clip. We do see Lovelady back on the steps talking to Gloria Calvery. WRONG

As for Molina, he said "Yes, she [Gloria Calvery] came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl." The other girl is Woman in White, who we see in Darnell tugging on Calvery's arm, trying to get her to go inside. Once inside, Molina saw them. Oh really is hat how it went? You offer no substantiation for this. The way the testimony states is that Molina was inside the lobby standing there when she came in.....yet Darnell shows him still standing outside on the front steps.

Mine & Thomas's scenario is also also supported by Wesley Frazier's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction [toward JFK's limo] but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

This means that they left, but shows no time reference so what good does that do to your p.o.v.

Actually it is worse, because you ripped it out of context.

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was. 
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place? 
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. 

 

THAT indicates more to an immediate movement than yapping about for three minutes.

 

So you are wrong on every charge!

 

Why do you expect me to search out Patricia Ann Donaldson in order to prove your claim? (Which BTW, as I showed above, is wrong.)

Just dealt with that.
 

WRONG!!!

 

see above in bold

[Guest]

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 

and

 

Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir? 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 

 

So Frazier stood there for a few mins and just before he went in this girl came in......a few minutes.....not 15/20 seconds!

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 

and

 

Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir? 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 

 

So Frazier stood there for a few mins and just before he went in this girl came in......a few minutes.....not 15/20 seconds!

Frazier didn't say who that girl was. You're assuming it was Gloria Calvery.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

What we see in the Darnell clip is that Lovelady and Shelley had just returned to the steps, and Shelley is inside calling his wife. All done inside 15 seconds after the shooting, wow! Which is why we don't see him in the clip. We do see Lovelady back on the steps talking to Gloria

(What I said in normal text. Bart's response in bold.)

 

Bart, you know it was more like 30 seconds. And that that's an estimate.

But regardless, the following is what proves that Gloria Calvery and her companion (Woman in White) had time to get back to the steps within that time frame. Because see... there they are on the steps!

How can this be denied?
 

On 4/24/2017 at 8:07 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

(Note:The inset is a frame from the Zapruder film.)

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Mine & Thomas's scenario is also also supported by Wesley Frazier's WC testimony:

Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place?
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction [toward JFK's limo] but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

This means that they left, but shows no time reference so what good does that do to your p.o.v.

Actually it is worse, because you ripped it out of context.

 

Mr. BALL - But you stood right there, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. Stood right where I was. 
Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place? 
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. 

 

THAT indicates more to an immediate movement than yapping about for three minutes.

What you added just repeats what I had already quoted.

 

[Michael Clark]

28 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(What I said in normal text. Bart's response in bold.)

 

Bart, you know it was more like 30 seconds. And that that's an estimate.

But regardless, the following is what proves that Gloria Calvery and her companion (Woman in White) had time to get back to the steps within that time frame. Because see... there they are on the steps!

How can this be denied?
 

 

Sandy, Aside from the assumption that we are seeing Baker crossing the street, when HE SAYS that he crossed the street, do we have a sold indication for the timing of this clip?

What makes me question it is that I simply don't get the feeling that this is 30 seconds after the shooting. It's just a feeling from looking at body language. I feel like it is longer.

Aren't both film clips discontinuous as they head down Houston and then turn onto and head down Elm?

Cheers,

Michael

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Sandy, Aside from the assumption that we are seeing Baker crossing the street, when HE SAYS that he crossed the street, do we have a sold indication for the timing of this clip?

What makes me question it is that I simply don't get the feeling that this is 30 seconds after the shooting. It's just a feeling from looking at body language. I feel like it is longer.

Aren't both film clips discontinuous as they head down Houston and then turn onto and head down Elm?

Cheers,

Michael

Michael,

If you watch the following Couch-Darnell composite in full screen, and stop it right at the end, you can see some of the motorcade cars.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/iVgv-G3DWvY

(Why is it that sometimes I can embed a YouTube video and other times I can't?)

I'm pretty sure a that a very careful person who has an intimate knowledge of the motorcade, the films, and the photos of the Plaza would be able to estimate the timing of the Darnell film with pretty good accuracy. I am not that person. (I lack the detailed knowledge.)

Now, whether or not some smart person has done that, I can't say. What I can say is that Woman in White and her friend (who is probably Gloria Calvery) had enough time to get back to the steps after the shooting. The Zapruder and Darnell films prove that. (Plus the fact that careful inspection of all the films showed that there is only one woman in all white, including a white scarf. And so we know that Woman in White in Zapruder is the same woman as Woman in White in Darnell.)

I agree that 30 seconds seems short for us to be seeing what we do see. But when a person is running, they can travel quite a distance in 30 seconds. All Shelley and Lovelady had to do is cross the Elm Street extension and then return to the steps in that thirty seconds. That's easily doable. Woman in White's journey was somewhat longer (I think), but we know without a doubt she had enough time to make it.

Bart's done a lot of good work on his Anatomy of a Second Floor Encounter. I'm not surprised he's resisting this find... I can't blame him. However, this doesn't negate his work. It's just a minor variation of his analysis.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Michael Clark]

55 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Michael,

If you watch the following Couch-Darnell composite in full screen, and stop it right at the end, you can see some of the motorcade cars.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/iVgv-G3DWvY

(Why is it that sometimes I can embed a YouTube video and other times I can't?)

I'm pretty sure a that a very careful person who has an intimate knowledge of the motorcade, the films, and the photos of the Plaza would be able to estimate the timing of the Darnell film with pretty good accuracy. I am not that person. (I lack the detailed knowledge.)

Now, whether or not some smart person has done that, I can't say. What I can say is that Woman in White and her friend (who is probably Gloria Calvery) had enough time to get back to the steps after the shooting. The Zapruder and Darnell films prove that. (Plus the fact that careful inspection of all the films showed that there is only one woman in all white, including a white scarf. And so we know that Woman in White in Zapruder is the same woman as Woman in White in Darnell.)

I agree that 30 seconds seems short for us to be seeing what we do see. But when a person is running, they can travel quite a distance in 30 seconds. All Shelley and Lovelady had to do is cross the Elm Street extension and then return to the steps in that thirty seconds. That's easily doable. Woman in White's journey was somewhat longer (I think), but we know without a doubt she had enough time to make it.

Bart's done a lot of good work on his Anatomy of a Second Floor Encounter. I'm not surprised he's resisting this find... I can't blame him. However, this doesn't negate his work. It's just a minor variation of his analysis.

Right now, I see Baker abandoning a traffic control post, on radio orders, and heading towards, but not in, the TSBD. I'm definitely not buying the 90 second thing. It could have been a couple minutes.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Chris Scally]

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I'm pretty sure a that a very careful person who has an intimate knowledge of the motorcade, the films, and the photos of the Plaza would be able to estimate the timing of the Darnell film with pretty good accuracy. I am not that person. (I lack the detailed knowledge.)

Now, whether or not some smart person has done that, I can't say.

Michael,

As far as I can recall, and I'm reasonably certain of this, there was such a timing analysis done a number of years ago. I don't have it to hand right now, but I know I've seen such a document (and it wasn't Myers' study).

Sorry I can't be more specific right now, but I will try to get more details for you in the next week, if that helps.

Chris

 

 

[Alistair Briggs]

4 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Right now, I see Baker abandoning a traffic control post, on radio orders, and heading towards, but not in, the TSBD. I'm definitely not buying the 90 second thing. It could have been a couple minutes.

Michael,

With no contentions on my part, allow me to ask a question... how long do you think it took before people started running towards the 'grassy knoll'?

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'm pretty sure a that a very careful person who has an intimate knowledge of the motorcade, the films, and the photos of the Plaza would be able to estimate the timing of the Darnell film with pretty good accuracy. I am not that person. (I lack the detailed knowledge.)

With no contentions on my part, Chris Davidson offered up the following a while back;

Quote

The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the 313 head shot, until the Hester sync = 21seconds.

 

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

 

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

 

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

 

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

 

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to

Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

 

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

 

This total = approx 30 seconds.

 

[Michael Clark]

3 hours ago, Chris Scally said:

Michael,

As far as I can recall, and I'm reasonably certain of this, there was such a timing analysis done a number of years ago. I don't have it to hand right now, but I know I've seen such a document (and it wasn't Myers' study).

Sorry I can't be more specific right now, but I will try to get more details for you in the next week, if that helps.

Chris

 

 

Thanks Chris!

[Michael Clark]

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Michael,

With no contentions on my part, allow me to ask a question... how long do you think it took before people started running towards the 'grassy knoll'?

With no contentions on my part, Chris Davidson offered up the following a while back;

 

Alistair, 

I don't know, it's confusing. Every time I look at this stuff I do not see what other people say that they see. I just move on.

I think that very few people are absolute objective viewers. So I usually walk away from these things thinking that people either know something that I don't, or are trying to prove something in particular. I this case, I think people have tried to determine if Baker could have made the second floor encounter.

Likewise, I am taking Officer Craig's testimony that Baker had been directing traffic before heading to the TSBD, and seeing what that does for me.

What it does explain for me is why there are so few cars on lower Elm st. in Couch, and why cars are stopped at Elm. It allows me to place the Officer-typically-Identified-as-Baker, at his motorcycle to use the radio, where he gets his instructions to abandon traffic duties at Elm. He is not parking it.

Honestly, I am not making solid assertions, I'm just playing with things.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited April 26, 2017 by Michael Clark