Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Ray Mitcham]

Michael, Baker said in his affidavit that he " was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots"

 

How does that gel with Craig's comments that he was stationary on traffic duty? Was Baker lying about being on motor escort?

Edited April 26, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Michael, Baker said in his affidavit that he " was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots"

 

How does that gel with Craig's comments that he was stationary on traffic duty? Was Baker lying about being on motor escort?

Well, Ray, Ive seen some things that don't add up. I can't get into the copy-and past search mode right now but, I believe his story changed several times to make the 2nd floor encounter work. I also see him heading beyond the stairs. There is also testimony that no one saw him come up the steps.

So, I am taking advantage of those facts and see who we can allow to be telling the truth, by hypothetically dismissing Bakers account as false. In this case I am allowing Craig's testimony to be true and see if any of that makes sense. Some of it does.

To be sure, I have a bias in favor of guys who stick to their story, in the face of trouble, get fired, shot, forced off mountain roads, car bombed and suicided.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited April 26, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Michael, Baker said in his affidavit that he " was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots"

 

How does that gel with Craig's comments that he was stationary on traffic duty? Was Baker lying about being on motor escort?

And Ray, more to the point of your question........

I think Baker was a motorcycle cop, as he said. 

His story gets him to a point where the Warren Comission wants him, in 90 seconds.

So if you remove that necessity, he very well could have instinctively blocked traffic at Elm, or could have been ordered to do it, as the emergency unfolded.

Then he may have gone to the radio and got his instructions to go elsewhere.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

Honestly, I am not making solid assertions, I'm just playing with things.

Nowt wrong with that.

One of the reasons I asked about people running to the grassy knoll is because in that clip, when looking to the far left as the camera pans and shows the 'grassy knoll' the 'rush' to it seems to only be 'starting' - doesn't seem to be many already there... that, too me, at least, does speak to the clip being filmed within a short period of time after the assassination (circa 30 seconds...)...

Regards

[Chris Davidson]

5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

With no contentions on my part, Chris Davidson offered up the following a while back;

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

Eventually, someone else will wise up and connect this information with the "Towner" thread.

The distance traveled by the common object from z193-z257 = 73ft.

64 frames/18.3 fps = 3.497 sec

You can then begin to stop spinning your wheels.

[Thomas Graves]

9 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Eventually, someone else will wise up and connect this information with the "Towner" thread.

The distance traveled by the common object from z193-z257 = 73ft.

64 frames/18.3 fps = 3.497 sec

You can then begin to stop spinning your wheels.

Chris,

On page 189 of the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread you wrote:

 

"The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the 313 head shot, until the Hester sync = 21 seconds.

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to

Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

This total = approx 30 seconds.

 

Does this mean that in Couch-Darnell, we see Marion Baker near the curb in front of the TSBD steps about 30 26.5 seconds after the last shot was fired?

IMHO, thirty twenty-six point five seconds would have been plenty of time for all of the following to have happened:

1 ) tall, largish, black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-white (including white headscarf) colleague run to, from their motorcade position down on Elm Street, that part of the "island" which is nearest the TSBD steps,

 2 ) as they are running back to the sanctuary of their TSBD workplace, Calvery and her colleague encounter Shelley and Lovelady on said "island" (which makes sense because Shelley and Lovelady claimed in their 1st day statements that they "left the steps immediately to follow the limo"),

3 ) on the "island," Calvery quickly tells Shelley and / or Lovelady what she has just seen (i.e., the President's head being blown off practically in front of her),

4) Shelley, leaving Lovelady, Calvery and Calvery's colleague behind, scurries back across Elm Street Extension and into the TSBD to call his wife,

5 )  Lovelady walks / runs with Calvery and colleague back to the TSBD (steps) where he can a ) be near his soda pop, b ) wait for Shelley to come back outside onto the steps,  c ) and have a slightly elevated view of the mad scene unfolding around him all at the same time, and

6 )  Calvery and colleague, still anxious to get to the safety of their TSBD office (and where telephones are), have now reached the steps with Lovelady (sans Shelley who is inside calling his wife) and all three are photographically "caught" by James Darnell as Calvery, being "pulled up" the steps by her colleague, is finishing her brief "talk" to Lovelady.

--  Tommy

Edited April 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Right now, I see Baker abandoning a traffic control post, on radio orders, and heading towards, but not in, the TSBD. I'm definitely not buying the 90 second thing. It could have been a couple minutes.

That's also my impression.

In fact the other day I was trying to figure out if he could have been heading for his assigned traffic-control post when he ran across the Elm Street extension. But I could make no sense of that scenario. So I figured he must have been distracted by something, which pulled him away from his post and across the extension.

[Chris Davidson]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

 

Does this mean that in Couch-Darnell, we see Marion Baker near the curb in front of the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the last shot was fired?

IMHO, thirty seconds would have been plenty of time for all of the following to have happened:

 

Thomas, this will not affect the overall time of approx 30sec.

It has no affect on what you're trying to prove.

Chris 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

To be sure, I have a bias in favor of guys who stick to their story, in the face of trouble, get fired, shot, forced off mountain roads, car bombed and suicided.

LOL... me too.

(Not laughing at poor Craig's plight, but the way it was used to explain a POV.)

 

[Thomas Graves]

34 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

Thomas, this will not affect the overall time of approx 30sec.

It has no affect on what you're trying to prove.

Chris 

Chris,

I don't understand what you're saying here, so let me ask you a question if I may:

About how many seconds after Z-313 did Couch and Darnell start filming the scene around the TSBD steps from their position in the Camera Car?

Thanks,

--  Tommy

 

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

46 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's also my impression.

In fact the other day I was trying to figure out if he could have been heading for his assigned traffic-control post when he ran across the Elm Street extension. But I could make no sense of that scenario. So I figured he must have been distracted by something, which pulled him away from his post and across the extension.

Come on, guys.

Baker's assignment was to ride his motorcycle (next to a "Camera Car," iirc) in the motorcade, and was photographed and filmed doing so.

He claimed to have heard a shot (or shots) and seen a startled flock of pigeons leave the roof of the TSBD, and that's why, he claimed, he parked his bike where he did and then, after listening for a few seconds to a DPD broadcast on his bike's radio, ran into the TSBD. He claimed.  

He was not assigned to "traffic control."

--  Tommy

Edited April 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Davidson]

17 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Chris,

I don't understand what you're saying here, so let me ask you a question if I may:

About how many seconds after Z-313 did Couch and Darnell start filming the scene around the TSBD steps from their position in the Camera Car?

Thanks,

--  Tommy

 

 

My best guess for now is approx 26.5 seconds with what's available.

[Thomas Graves]

3 minutes ago, Chris Davidson said:

My best guess for now is approx 26.5 seconds with what's available.

Thanks, Chris.

I consider you far and away the best source for this kind of timing information.

26.5 seconds, huh?

Still enough time for the scenario I outlined, above.

IMHO

--  Tommy

PS  I didn't know we could see Weigman running in Couch-Darnell.  That's good to know.

[Sandy Larsen]

33 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Come on, guys.

Baker's assignment was to ride his motorcycle (next to a "Camera Car," iirc) in the motorcade, and was photographed and filmed doing so.

He claimed to have heard a shot (or shots) and seen a startled flock of pigeons leave the roof of the TSBD, and that's why, he claimed, he parked his bike where he did and then, after listening for a few seconds to a DPD broadcast on his bike's radio, ran into the TSBD. He claimed.  

He was not assigned to "traffic control."

--  Tommy

 

I just assumed (because of what Roger Craig said) that Baker got a radio transmission after the shooting, assigning him to control traffic.

But it's probably expecting too much from the DPD to assess the situation and make new assignments that quickly. And besides, there would have already been an officer assigned to that intersection for traffic control... right?

Maybe Roger Craig somehow got the impression Baker was doing traffic control when in fact he wasn't.

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Chris,

On page 189 of the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread you wrote:

 

"The time it takes for Wiegman panning back to the TSBD after the 313 head shot, until the Hester sync = 21 seconds.

Bell films Wiegman filming the Hesters. The sync point between Bell and Wiegman is Hester stepping up onto the Colonade.

Bell continuously films afterwards for 1.3 seconds and  picks up Wiegman starting to rise for his  run down the knoll.

Gerda’s dual-sync of Couch/Darnell shows both Wiegman and Baker in there respective runs.

There is 3.5 seconds of missing footage from the Wiegman sequence.

Take those 3.5 seconds and apply that to Wiegman after we see him start to rise in Bell and to

Baker before we see him in Gerda’s dual-sync.

Baker’s run to the curb equals 4 seconds.

This total = approx 30 seconds.

 

Does this mean that in Couch-Darnell, we see Marion Baker near the curb in front of the TSBD steps about 30 26.5 seconds after the last shot was fired?

IMHO, thirty twenty-six point five seconds would have been plenty of time for all of the following to have happened:

1 ) tall, largish, black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing Gloria Calvery and her dressed-in-white (including white headscarf) colleague run to, from their motorcade position down on Elm Street, that part of the "island" which is nearest the TSBD steps,

 2 ) as they are running back to the sanctuary of their TSBD workplace, Calvery and her colleague encounter Shelley and Lovelady on said "island" (which makes sense because Shelley and Lovelady claimed in their 1st day statements that they "left the steps immediately to follow the limo"),

3 ) on the "island," Calvery quickly tells Shelley and / or Lovelady what she has just seen (i.e., the President's head being blown off practically in front of her),

4) Shelley, leaving Lovelady, Calvery and Calvery's colleague behind, scurries back across Elm Street Extension and into the TSBD to call his wife,

5 )  Lovelady walks / runs with Calvery and colleague back to the TSBD (steps) where he can a ) be near his soda pop, b ) wait for Shelley to come back outside onto the steps,  c ) and have a slightly elevated view of the mad scene unfolding around him all at the same time, and

6 )  Calvery and colleague, still anxious to get to the safety of their TSBD office (and where telephones are), have now reached the steps with Lovelady (sans Shelley who is inside calling his wife) and all three are photographically "caught" by James Darnell as Calvery, being "pulled up" the steps by her colleague, is finishing her brief "talk" to Lovelady.

--  Tommy

edited and bumped

PS  26.5 seconds is 76% longer than Bart Kamp's measly "15 seconds"

PPS  What, exactly, does Kamp purport to "show" regarding Calvery's skirt in the Darnell frame he posted?  Did he photoshop some white over Calvery's grayish-toned (and with bit of a dark-colored horizontal stripe or 'pattern") skirt and / or choose a frame in which Pirouetting Man (trying to wave Baker up the steps) is blocking most if not all of Calvery's dress from the camera's view? 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Thomas Graves