Dr. Humes knew about the throat wound the day of the autopsy.

[Pat Speer]

Just as people forget things over time, they also come to remember a lot of things that never happened. Livingston's story hasn't passed the smell test of anyone who's looked into it, and the prime proponent of his story, Fetzer, has both a history of pushing embarrassing nonsense, and a track record of refusing to make available materials through which people can better judge Livingston's credibility. Hmmm...

There's no there there.

P.S. Dr. Aguilar does not vouch for Livingston.

[James DiEugenio]

Sandy,

There are all kinds of ways to demonstrate that Humes knew about the anterior neck wound that night. For example, Audrey Bell's talk with Perry the next morning. In fact, if I recall correctly, LIfton advances some evidence for this in Best Evidence also.

The point is that Livingston had a very good resume, which made him an attractive witness.

But the more people dug into his story, the less they saw in it since there simply was not any corroboration for it.

Edited August 16, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Sandy Larsen]

Just as people forget things over time, they also come to remember a lot of things that never happened. Livingston's story hasn't passed the smell test of anyone who's looked into it, and the prime proponent of his story, Fetzer, has both a history of pushing embarrassing nonsense, and a track record of refusing to make available materials through which people can better judge Livingston's credibility. Hmmm...

Show me the proof.

There's no there there.

P.S. Dr. Aguilar does not vouch for Livingston.

Neither does he say Livingston l.i.e.d. Or is untrustworthy.

[David Von Pein]

GARRY PUFFER SAID:

I'm tired of hearing this lie told by James Humes and commonly repeated by nearly everyone that Humes did not find out about the throat wound until Saturday, Absolutely not true. Here is a statement from Dr. Robert Livingston about a call he made to Bethesda from Parkland on the evening of Nov. 22:

"...the Officer on Duty put me through to speak directly with Dr Humes who was waiting to perform the autopsy. After introductions, we began a pleasant conversation. He told me that he had not heard much about the reporting from Dallas and from the Parkland Hospital. I told him that the reason for my making such a...call was to stress that the Parkland Hospital physicians' examination of President Kennedy revealed what they reported to be a small wound in the neck, closely adjacent to and to the right of the trachea.

I explained that I had knowledge from the literature on high-velocity wound ballistics research, in addition to considerable personal combat experience examining and repairing bullet and shrapnel wounds. I was confident that a small wound of that sort had to be a wound of entrance and that if it were a wound of exit, it would almost certainly be widely blown out, with cruciate or otherwise wide, tearing outward ruptures of the underlying tissues and skin.

I stressed to Dr. Humes how important it was that the autopsy pathologists carefully examine the President's neck to characterize that particular wound and to distinguish it from the neighboring tracheotomy wound."


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Garry,

Do you actually believe that Dr. Humes was told before the autopsy (in some detail) about the bullet hole in JFK's throat, but then Humes just totally ignored that information when it came time to perform the autopsy?

In a word --- Nonsense.


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Of course I believe it, and you know very well why the wound was not examined.

Do you actually believe Dr. Humes did not tell any lies concerning the autopsy? In a word, nonsense, David.

I don't think he liked doing it, but a military doctor does what he's told to do.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let's see what Dr. Humes told the Warren Commission (emphasis added by DVP).....

Commander HUMES -- "We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher."

Mr. SPECTER -- "And what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the President?"

Commander HUMES -- "Yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place."

Mr. SPECTER -- "Now, have you since discounted that possibility, Doctor Humes?"

Commander HUMES -- "Yes; in essence we have. When examining the wounds in the base of the President's neck anteriorly, the region of the tracheotomy performed at Parkland Hospital, we noted and we noted in our record, some contusion and bruising of the muscles of the neck of the President. We noted that at the time of the postmortem examination."


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

God, David, stop with the WC testimony to "prove" anything. So much of the testimony is false, and you know this. Humes had been telling his lie for so long by the time he faced the WC, it probably seemed like the truth to him.

Sorry, I'll put my money on Dr. Livingston, who had no reason to lie, against Dr. Humes, who had every reason to lie and did just that.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let's have a look at how reliable good old Dr. Livingston is.....

From Vince Bugliosi's book....

"[Dr. Robert B.] Livingston is the person who claims that just hours after the assassination, when there was mass confusion and no one knew anything for sure about the trajectory or origin of fire, he reached Dr. Humes on the phone at Bethesda Naval Hospital just prior to the autopsy and informed Humes that JFK’s front neck wound was probably an entry wound, and that Humes had to terminate the conversation because FBI agents would not let him continue (Statement of Robert B. Livingston, MD, November 18, 1993, in Fetzer, "Assassination Science", p. 162; David W. Mantik, “The JFK Assassination: Cause for Doubt,” in Fetzer, "Murder in Dealey Plaza", p.113).

Mind you, Livingston claims he told Humes this before Humes learned from Dr. Perry that there was a bullet wound to the front of Kennedy’s neck. But Livingston, calling from San Diego, knew better. My, my.

In a 1993 deposition, Livingston changed the time of the alleged call, claiming that he talked to Humes for fifteen minutes to a half hour between 3:30 and 4:00 p.m. (EST) on the afternoon of the assassination, when we know Humes wasn’t even at Bethesda (ARRB MD 24, Deposition of Robert B. Livingston, MD, Case No. 73-93, "Crenshaw and Shaw versus Sutherland", November 19, 1993, pp.101, 105, 199).

Dr. Humes told the ARRB in 1996 that he had never heard of Dr. Livingston and after reading parts of his deposition said, “Well, this is ridiculous. I was at home at this time. He never talked to me, period . . . This is fantasy. Pure fantasy . . . Never happened. That’s all I can tell you” (ARRB Transcript of Proceedings, Deposition of Dr. James Joseph Humes, February 13, 1996, pp.47, 48, 49).

In his deposition, Livingston admitted that although the information he had was important, he never contacted the Warren Commission, HSCA, Clark Panel, or any other official investigation, but that when he finally did take action (in April–May of 1992), he only wrote letters and met with known conspiracy theorists—Peter Dale Scott, David Lifton, Gary Aguilar, and Harrison Edward Livingstone.

Livingston ultimately expressed his belief in a conspiracy to assassinate and cover up the JFK assassination, going so far as to claim that whoever was involved in the JFK killing and cover-up was also involved in his getting sprayed with gasoline at a service station once (ARRB MD 24, Deposition of Robert B. Livingston, MD, Case No. 73-93, "Crenshaw and Shaw versus Sutherland", November 19, 1993, pp.41, 48–51, 54–56, 78, 87, 179–181)." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 286 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"


GARRY PUFFER SAID:

Sorry, David, but I don't trust Bugliosi any more than you trust Mark Lane, so don't quote Vince to convince me of anything.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

But everything Dr. Humes did during the autopsy on 11/22/63 at Bethesda, while President Kennedy's body was lying on the autopsy table, indicates that Dr. Humes did not positively know that there was a bullet hole in JFK's throat.

And we don't have to take just Dr. Humes' word for this. We also have the Sibert/O'Neill report to guide us, too. In that report written by FBI agents James Sibert and Francis O'Neill on November 22, 1963 (and dictated on November 26, 1963) [ARRB MD 44], it states the following on Page 4:

"Inasmuch as no complete bullet of any size could be located in the brain area and likewise no bullet could be located in the back or any other area of the body as determined by total body X-Rays and inspection revealing there was no point of exit, the individuals performing the autopsy were at a loss to explain why they could find no bullets."

Therefore, via the above excerpt that comes from the report written by FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill, it's quite clear that the autopsy doctors (including James J. Humes) were not fully aware during the course of the autopsy of the existence of the bullet hole in the lower part of President Kennedy's throat.

In addition, the Sibert/O'Neill report also states on Page 3 that President Kennedy's body had undergone "surgery of the head area". And we know from later interviews with James Sibert (such as this one in 2005) that the "surgery of the head area" remark had come straight from the mouth of Dr. James Humes himself.

Now, I ask this: If Dr. Humes had been part of a covert plot to secretly alter John F. Kennedy's head wounds (and according to Douglas P. Horne, Humes DID alter the President's head wounds), then why on Earth would Humes have uttered aloud that there had been apparent "surgery of the head area"? It makes no sense.

David Von Pein
June 17, 2015

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

There are all kinds of ways to demonstrate that Humes knew about the anterior neck wound that night. For example, Audrey Bell's talk with Perry the next morning. In fact, if I recall correctly, LIfton advances some evidence for this in Best Evidence also.

The point is that Livingston had a very good resume, which made him an attractive witness.

But the more people dug into his story, the less they saw in it since there simply was not any corroboration for it.

The way I see it, Jim, none of the day-of-autopsy witnesses have corroboration for what they said. So why should I single out Livingston and eliminate him from my list? Just because some researchers feel uneasy about him?

When somebody shows me something that impeaches Livingston's character, then I'll remove him from my list. What I've seen so far is guilt by association and assumptions I don't agree with.

Of course others can believe whatever they want.

Thanks for reminding me of Audrey Bell. I need to check that story out.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Sandy,

There are all kinds of ways to demonstrate that Humes knew about the anterior neck wound that night. For example, Audrey Bell's talk with Perry the next morning. In fact, if I recall correctly, LIfton advances some evidence for this in Best Evidence also.

The point is that Livingston had a very good resume, which made him an attractive witness.

But the more people dug into his story, the less they saw in it since there simply was not any corroboration for it.

The way I see it, Jim, none of the day-of-autopsy witnesses have corroboration for what they said. So why should I single out Livingston and eliminate him from my list? Just because some researchers feel uneasy about him?

When somebody shows me something that impeaches Livingston's character, then I'll remove him from my list. What I've seen so far is guilt by association and assumptions I don't agree with.

Of course others can believe whatever they want.

Thanks for reminding me of Audrey Bell. I need to check that story out.

Here's another way I see this:

I personally believe that Lifton got things basically right in his body alteration theory. Yet I know there are many others who believe it to be complete nonsense. Some of them give all kinds of arguments against the theory. Arguments that make little sense to me.

Should I quit believing the theory because so many others think it's nonsense? No, I won't.

Until they come up with some compelling reasons why the theory can't be right, I will continue to believe the way I do.

[Sandy Larsen]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Let's have a look at how reliable good old Dr. Livingston is.....

From Vince Bugliosi's book....

"[Dr. Robert B.] Livingston is the person who claims that just hours after the assassination, when there was mass confusion and no one knew anything for sure about the trajectory or origin of fire, he reached Dr. Humes on the phone at Bethesda Naval Hospital just prior to the autopsy and informed Humes that JFK’s front neck wound was probably an entry wound, and that Humes had to terminate the conversation because FBI agents would not let him continue (Statement of Robert B. Livingston, MD, November 18, 1993, in Fetzer, "Assassination Science", p. 162; David W. Mantik, “The JFK Assassination: Cause for Doubt,” in Fetzer, "Murder in Dealey Plaza", p.113).

Mind you, Livingston claims he told Humes this before Humes learned from Dr. Perry that there was a bullet wound to the front of Kennedy’s neck. But Livingston, calling from San Diego, knew better. My, my. ....

Actually, Dr. Livingston said he called from his home in Bethesda. (His job wasn't far from Bethesda Naval Hospital.)

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[James DiEugenio]

Its incredible how DVP uses the whole WC back and forth between Humes and Specter as evidence.

When, in fact, this was all rehearsed during their 8-10 meeting prior to the testimony.

I mean, just look in that phony dog and pony show that DVP wants us to take seriously as evidence, for the one key question that would have put this all away:

Specter: Dr. Humes, why did you not dissect the track of the wound in the back?

See if you find that in the WC. You won't. Then try and figure out why its not there.

Answer: See Finck's testimony at the Shaw trial when he was asked this question.

That is what a phony sideshow Specter's examination of the three pathologists was. In this regard, Specter really was an accessory after the fact.

Edited August 17, 2016 by James DiEugenio

[Ray Mitcham]

Commander HUMES -- "We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher."

Note he could well be telling the truth , that he didn't have the information from Dr Perry, but it doesn't mean he hadn't been told by Livingston.

It's called being economical with the truth.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Ray Mitcham

[Sandy Larsen]

Commander HUMES -- "We were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. I did not at that point have the information from Doctor Perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the President's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher."

Note he could well be telling the truth , that he didn't have the information from Dr Perry, but it doesn't mean he hadn't been told by Livingston.

It's called being economical with the truth.

Interesting take, Ray.

I've always thought that Humes tried to tell the truth as much as he was able to without making waves.. I think David Lifton feels the same.

[Micah Mileto]

Didn't Dr. Burkley see the original throat wound? His WC affidavit says he only arrived to the emergency room 3-5 minutes after Kennedy arrived.

[Micah Mileto]

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/The_critics/Feinman/Between_the_signal/Chapter_eight.html

Roger Feinman's essay Between the Signal and the Noise argues that Burkley did in fact see the original throat wound.