Paul Brancato Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Why do so many of you have a problem with criticizing Clinton? I find it very surprising. I voted for Sanders, and Clinton. But I haven't been happy with the Democratic Party for a long time. DiEugenio named a lot of the things that got passed under Bill Clinton that were not good for the country. I know Hilary Clinton has been hounded for decades now. It almost made me feel she would make a good president. But defending her after the election - what's the point? When I criticize her from the left it's entirely different than from the right. I'm really sick of the Democratic Party marginalizing their progressives. I know some of it is the natural tendency, for understandable historical reason, of blacks to be afraid of the left. This goes back at least to the way NAACP dealt with Paul Robeson. He was going to quickly. But blacks also know that progressives are their true friends, not fair weather. Another point, and this is to Tommy mainly, is that I think a little empathy is called for when trying to understand Putin's Russia. They are not allowed into NATO, they are surrounded by weaponry and nukes pointing at them, and their opinions in the court of public opinion are dismissed. Didn't we all learn that JFK wanted to end the Cold War? Tommy - do you concur? Well, what are we doing now? What would JFK do? We never read anything about CIA, yet their hands are all over the Ukraine and Crimea. What would the US do in a similar situation on its border? It's so easy to vilify Putin, especially now. But to say he has no reason to be pissed off would be ignorant. Of course he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) Paul, I could never bring myself to vote for a Clinton. But you probably live in a swing state. Since I lived in California for 30 years, I could actually vote my conscience. But when I could not, as in the primaries, I never voted for either one. See, its one thing to sell out your presidency for money and power. Its another thing to hijack your party and rob it of its legacy and its reason for being. And as you can see from that list, that is what Bill did. And that is one reason why HRC got so much money to run. To me, the last is simply unconscionable. Especially for those who allegedly value the memory of JFK. Edited November 16, 2016 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Let me add, what you say about Putin cuts to the quick. Why was it OK for Bill to be so chummy with that drunken fool Yeltsin? That guy who just about took his country back to the ravages of World War II economically. Who stamped out the communists by military force. Who let foreign plunderers raid the riches of the USSR. And who negated all the good things that Gorbachev did and then sidelined him politically. And Gorby was a true statesman. Why is it OK for Bill to do the work of the GOP in this aspect? And that is what he did. Because Yeltsin was the neocons guy. They wanted the whole Shock Doctrine in the USSR, which they got. But somehow its not OK for Trump to try and open things up with Putin? As JFK said, never negotiate out of fear, but never fear to negotiate. Some good may come of this. Just maybe Trump will help Assad and Putin destroy ISIS. Instead of having the USA destroy Assad and risk WW 3 and then let Al Qaeda take over Syria like they did in Libya. Fingers crossed. Hoping against hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 19 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said: But defending her after the election - what's the point? I'm defending her right to run for President without the head of the FBI jumping with both feet on the scale. I'd feel the same way if it had happened to Trump. You can't excuse/defend anti-democratic operations just because it's directed at those you oppose. Not if you're an actual patriot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 BTW Paul, that thing about Yeltsin is another point I should have added to my list. Thanks for reminding me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ecker Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Just saw Karl Rove say on TV that for his first year in office, Trump will not have the Oval Office. Obama asked them to wait till the end of his term, but the Oval Office is going to be completely remodeled by the Secret Service including bulletproof glass, etc. etc. If this is true, I'm willing to bet that when Trump does move in, the Oval Office is going to be bugged to the hilt. The intelligence community will be listening to every word spoken there. State of the art domestic spying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Well worth viewing: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/11/16/us/politics/the-two-americas-of-2016.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=b-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) I wasn't going to post in this thread again but the points made on all sides of this presidential election and it's controversies are so compelling and thought provoking in their substance, validity and illuminations ( especially about the Clintons ) that I've been drawn back in. Like Jim D, I am from California. Right on the shoreline, closer to the S.F. Bay Area than L.A. Where Mae Brussels and her home radio broadcast studio was from. I have lived in this same area since 1952. and of course I am of the typical West Coast political bent. I voted "against" Bush Sr. both times. The first time because I liked the Dem candidate, the 2nd time I voted for Ross Perot. I grew to immensely dislike Bill Clinton on a personal level and even though I felt he did do several things that were good, he did more things that were clearly bad in real daily life terms and long term for working class Americans ( and the poor ) as Jim D points out. I also felt that over-all B. Clinton "was" more Republican than Democrat. I also have never liked Hillary Clinton ( I didn't hate her ) but for different reasons than her husband. I was respectful of her for "trying" to introduce change in our health care system that has just killed working class America in it's corporation favoring way. I was a Bernie Sanders supporter this last year. However, unlike Jim D. I voted this election and I voted for Hillary. Why? For one main reason that I felt "trumped" all the others...the Supreme Court! In my opinion despite everything I dislike about Hillary Clinton, this election was about the future Supreme Court more than any other issue by far. I felt I was voting for the Supreme Court...not Hillary. In my 65 years of American political interest and observation , this one government body has and has had more power, say and influence over our daily lives than most Americans even begin to realize. I saw our Republican party favoring Supreme Court invalidate and actually subvert the 2,000 presidential election by doing something it had never done before and wasn't supposed to do. Overrule a state Supreme Court which had voted to keep counting the 2,000 election votes in their state, which were on their way to a Gore victory. When the U.S. Supreme Court stopped that vote count, Gore was just a few thousand votes (if not hundreds!) shy but gaining by the hour in that direction. That biased 5 to 4 Republican party favoring Supreme Court KNEW that if they didn't shut down that Florida Supreme Court allowed vote count extension , their man Bush would have lost the presidency. One of the greatest "abuse of power" political crimes committed in our country in our lifetimes. Much more to say, but the day's duties call. Comparison....Trump versus JFK. OH GOD. Edited November 16, 2016 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Joe: I want to associate myself with your perceptive observations above, and not just because I was born in Long Beach. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said: Instead of having the USA destroy Assad and risk WW 3 and then let Al Qaeda take over Syria like they did in Libya. Fake historian at work above. It was ISIS who got a foothold in Libya and are now being routed. http://www.libyaobserver.ly/news/5000-displaced-families-return-sirte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said: I wasn't going to post in this thread again but the points made on all sides of this presidential election and it's controversies are so compelling and thought provoking in their substance, validity and illuminations ( especially about the Clintons ) that I've been drawn back in. Like Jim D, I am from California. Right on the shoreline, closer to the S.F. Bay Area than L.A. Where Mae Brussels and her home radio broadcast studio was from. I have lived in this same area since 1952. and of course I am of the typical West Coast political bent. I voted "against" Bush Sr. both times. The first time because I liked the Dem candidate, the 2nd time I voted for Ross Perot. I grew to immensely dislike Bill Clinton on a personal level and even though I felt he did do several things that were good, he did more things that were clearly bad in real daily life terms and long term for working class Americans ( and the poor ) as Jim D points out. I also felt that over-all B. Clinton "was" more Republican than Democrat. I also have never liked Hillary Clinton ( I didn't hate her ) but for different reasons than her husband. I was respectful of her for "trying" to introduce change in our health care system that has just killed working class America in it's corporation favoring way. I was a Bernie Sanders supporter this last year. However, unlike Jim D. I voted this election and I voted for Hillary. Why? For one main reason that I felt "trumped" all the others...the Supreme Court! In my opinion despite everything I dislike about Hillary Clinton, this election was about the future Supreme Court more than any other issue by far. I felt I was voting for the Supreme Court...not Hillary. In my 65 years of American political interest and observation , this one government body has and has had more power, say and influence over our daily lives than most Americans even begin to realize. I saw our Republican party favoring Supreme Court invalidate and actually subvert the 2,000 presidential election by doing something it had never done before and wasn't supposed to do. Overrule a state Supreme Court which had voted to keep counting the 2,000 election votes in their state, which were on their way to a Gore victory. When the U.S. Supreme Court stopped that vote count, Gore was just a few thousand votes (if not hundreds!) shy but gaining by the hour in that direction. That biased Supreme Court KNEW that if they didn't shut down that Florida Supreme Court allowed vote count extension , their man Bush would have lost the presidency. One of the greatest political crimes committed in our country in our lifetimes. Much more to say, but the day's duties call. Comparison....Trump versus JFK. OH GOD. I couldn't have put it better myself, Joe. I never voted for Bill Clinton, I voted for Bernie, and then I voted for Hillary because when the question is asked -- "What did you do when overt fascism came to America?" -- I can say I opposed it as best I could. Why did overt fascism come to America? People like Jim DiEugenio need to look in the mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) On 11/15/2016 at 10:10 PM, Paul Brancato said: Why do so many of you have a problem with criticizing Clinton? I find it very surprising. I voted for Sanders, and Clinton. But I haven't been happy with the Democratic Party for a long time. DiEugenio named a lot of the things that got passed under Bill Clinton that were not good for the country. I know Hilary Clinton has been hounded for decades now. It almost made me feel she would make a good president. But defending her after the election - what's the point? When I criticize her from the left it's entirely different than from the right. I'm really sick of the Democratic Party marginalizing their progressives. I know some of it is the natural tendency, for understandable historical reason, of blacks to be afraid of the left. This goes back at least to the way NAACP dealt with Paul Robeson. He was going to quickly. But blacks also know that progressives are their true friends, not fair weather. Another point, and this is to Tommy mainly, is that I think a little empathy is called for when trying to understand Putin's Russia. They are not allowed into NATO, they are surrounded by weaponry and nukes pointing at them, and their opinions in the court of public opinion are dismissed. Didn't we all learn that JFK wanted to end the Cold War? Tommy - do you concur? Well, what are we doing now? What would JFK do? We never read anything about CIA, yet their hands are all over the Ukraine and Crimea. What would the US do in a similar situation on its border? It's so easy to vilify Putin, especially now. But to say he has no reason to be pissed off would be ignorant. Of course he does. Paul, Did you ever watch PBS's "Putin's Way" (google it; it's free) and / or go to bellingcat.com ? Based on the evidence available, I firmly believe that former FSB head Vladimir Putin engineered the killing of 300 of his own citizens in the 1999 Russia Apartment Bombings [q.v.], so that martial law could be declared, so that the Second Chechen War could begin, and, most importantly, so that Putin (First Prime Minister at the time) would automatically become president when his "boss" [the corrupt, and therefore vulnerable, President Boris Yeltsin] announced his "retirement," the timing of which which was, I'm confident, "pre-arranged" between them. I believe that former KGB counter-intelligence officer Putin is waging Asymmetrical [q.v.] Total War [q.v.] against the West, and that he's winning -- Ergo our being sufficiently influenced by Wikileaks to elect Trump to the U.S. Presidency last week. Why would Putin want Trump to become the U.S. President? Because he knows that a Trump presidency will sow Hegelian-like social discord and conflict in the U.S., as well as because Trump in on record as intending to de-fund NATO (if other NATO countries don't "cough up" what their past and future dues). -- Tommy Edited November 24, 2016 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 PBS FRONTLINE Seven Issue Trump Will Inherit http://now.eloqua.com/es.asp?s=2531&e=451310&elq=16882277862e48f2b9ba9da3a322cfc2&elqaid=3715&elqat=1&elqTrackId=b8dd3405ab344b288acef47af0765615 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Caddy Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 Putin's candidate won the election with the help of the FBI in fixing the election. http://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/11/16/nsa-chief-nation-state-made-conscious-effort-to-sway-us-presi/21607615/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Varnell Posted November 16, 2016 Share Posted November 16, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Douglas Caddy said: Putin's candidate won the election with the help of the FBI in fixing the election. http://www.aol.com/article/news/2016/11/16/nsa-chief-nation-state-made-conscious-effort-to-sway-us-presi/21607615/ Let's call it for what it is: Treason. Thank you for your patriotism, Douglas. Edited November 16, 2016 by Cliff Varnell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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