Was Lovelady A Big Fat Prevaricator, Or What?

[Guest]

Just now, Thomas Graves said:

Yeah, Paul.

Barto's gonna have to "move" Lovelady from Elm Street Extension to the TSBD steps, where Sandy and I have recently proved, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he can be seen there, talking with Gloria Calvery in Couch-Darnell.

So, I'm afraid you're gonna have to wait awhile for that "update".

LOL

--  Tommy

Keep dreaming Tommy , you have not proven anything.

 

****

 

[Sandy Larsen]

16 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Keep dreaming Tommy , you have not proven anything.

 

****

 

Jeez Tommy, can't you see that that is Lovelady walking down the street, in his famous plaid shirt? And that Shelley is walking right next to him in his (not-so-famous) plaid jacket?

[Thomas Graves]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jeez Tommy, can't you see that that is Lovelady walking down the street, in his famous plaid shirt? And that Shelley is walking right next to him in his (not-so-famous) plaid jacket?

Nope.  Sorry, dude.  Those two guys are just used car salesman goin' back to work after havin' themselves a couple of Lone Star beers, but first they're gonna run down to the railway yard to take a whizz before their respective bladders eggsplodes on 'em.

See, my open, analytical, detail-oriented, and highly-observant mind dictates that I "push" this (below) semi-detail from the same film, Sandy.

I'm just hoping I can figure out a way to rationalize how Shelley and / or Lovelady did, or did not, see Baker or not-Baker, and
Truly, or not truly Truly, run into, or not run into the TSBD, so that the Critically-Important 2nd Floor Lunchroom Encounter With Oswald, or not with Oswald, could, or could not possibly have, occurred the way Baker or not Baker and Truly or not truly Truly, said or didn't really say that it happened, or did not .....really ....... happen.

--  Tommy

Edited March 19, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

No, this has been discussed here many times already.

I made a page about most of it, could do w an update, but it'll have to wait.

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/

Bart,

Thanks for the link.  I read it with interest.

It seems to me that you have two main points against Billy Lovelady:

(1) His poor memory about the minute-to-minute TIMING of the events following the JFK assassination;

(2) The allegation that Vickie Adams told Barry Ernest that the WC altered her WC testimony where it says she saw Billy Lovelady on the 1st floor of the TSBD following the JFK assassination.

This is what Tommy and others have also been saying here on the FORUM.

My opinion remains the same -- these are weak arguments.  Billy could not remember the minute-to-minute TIMING of the events.  He repeatedly said, "approximately."  He was not the brightest bulb, anyway.   It's all-too-common.  

Also, Vickie Adams was not under oath when she (allegedly) told Barry Ernest of the alleged WC forgery.

There's just not enough there to make a case, IMHO.  I understand you're still looking....

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 19, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jeez Tommy, can't you see that that is Lovelady walking down the street, in his famous plaid shirt?

And that Shelley is walking right next to him in his (not-so-famous) plaid jacket?

Sandy,

Despite our differences here, I agree with Tommy on this point. 

(1) While the plaid shirt looks like Lovelady's -- and his bald spot looks like Lovelady's -- it's not enough data.  Lots of guys had plaid shirts and bald spots.  We need more.

(2) While the guy walking next to plaid-shirt-guy is wearing a suit jacket, as Shelley wore, lots of guys had suits jackets.  

(3) The suit-wearing guy looks plump to me -- while Shelley was skinny.

(4)  The two guys walking next to each other may or may not really be "together."   We must watch more of the film.  

(5)  They are walking from the east of the TSBD.   This matches none of the WC testimony.

(6) The real clincher -- Tommy's ID of Lovelady on the left side of the TSBD steps seems correct to me.  If that was Gloria Calvary stopping to talk to Lovelady, it's strong evidence.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

14 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

...I "push" this quasi-detail (below) from the same film, Sandy.

I'm just hoping I can figure out a way to rationalize how Shelley and / or Lovelady did, or did not, see Baker...and Truly...run into...the TSBD...

--  Tommy

Tommy,

IMHO, the WC testimony of both Shelly and Lovelady claiming that they turned back and saw Truly and Baker running into the TSBD is completely credible.

The only issue anybody really has with their testimony is their minute-to-minute TIMING of the events after the JFK assassination.

As Lovelady exclaimed in exasperation after the WC attorneys asked him several times for the EXACT minute of his actions, "I didn't have a stopwatch!"

It's admittedly a clumsy way of saying that he didn't expect to be questioned about the minute-to-minute TIMING, so he didn't write down in a journal exactly how long it took them to go to this corner, or talk to this person, or walk back to the TSBD -- or when they saw Vickie Adams.

THEY JUST DIDN'T REMEMBER.   Once we accept that ordinary fact, then the rest of their testimony just falls into place with Adams, Baker and Truly.  (And yes, I discount the claims made by Barry Ernest.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 19, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

49 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bart,

Thanks for the link.  I read it with interest.

It seems to me that you have two main points against Billy Lovelady:

(1) His poor memory about the minute-to-minute TIMING of the events following the JFK assassination;

(2) The allegation that Vickie Adams told Barry Ernest that the WC altered her WC testimony where it says she saw Billy Lovelady on the 1st floor of the TSBD following the JFK assassination.

This is what Tommy and others have also been saying here on the FORUM.

My opinion remains the same -- these are weak arguments.  Billy could not remember the minute-to-minute TIMING of the events.  He repeatedly said, "approximately."  He was not the brightest bulb, anyway.   It's all-too-common.  

Also, Vickie Adams was not under oath when she (allegedly) told Barry Ernest of the alleged WC forgery.

There's just not enough there to make a case, IMHO.  I understand you're still looking....

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul "Word Twister" Trejo,

You seem to have forgotten that Vicki's sidekick that day, Sandra Styles, (who, btw, was not asked to give testimony to the WC), also told Ernest that they had descended the wooden stairs much sooner that the WC implied they did, and that she (Styles) didn't see Shelley or Lovelady on the first floor, either.  And that their supervisor at Scotts-Foreman, a Mrs Gardner, claimed that she walked with the girls to the stairs' fourth floor landing, and watched Adams and Styles descend those stairs about a minute after the assassination, much too early for Shelley and Lovelady to have arrived there if they indeed did what they claimed in their WC testimony, to have done after the assassination.

--  Tommy

Edited March 19, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

46 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul "Word Twister" Trejo,

You seem to have forgotten that Vicki's sidekick that day, Sandra Styles, (who, btw, was not asked to give testimony to the WC), also told Ernest that they had descended the wooden stairs much sooner that the WC implied they did, and that she (Styles) didn't see Shelley or Lovelady on the first floor, either.  And that their supervisor at Scotts-Foreman, a Mrs Gardner, claimed that she walked with the girls to the stairs' fourth floor landing, and watched Adams and Styles descend those stairs about a minute after the assassination, much too early for Shelley and Lovelady to have arrived there if they indeed did what they claimed in their WC testimony, to have done after the assassination.

--  Tommy

Tommy,

I think you're adding your slant to the words of Sandra Styles.  IMHO you take Barry Ernest's account uncritically. 

The main question asked of Sandra Styles repeatedly -- like Vickie Adams -- for decades, was this:  DID YOU SEE OSWALD ON THE STAIRS? That's almost all that anybody ever wanted her to answer.  The question about the TIMING of their walk downstairs was a rare question.

Yet we get an alternate story to Barry Ernest, from Sean Murphy's interview of Sandra Styles, as follows:

Sandra claimed she told Ernest what she was now telling me: that she and Victoria Adams did not go to the rear stairs anything close to as quickly as Victoria had claimed.    -- Sean Murphy; January 27, 2011

This bit of information tallies everything closer to my own CT.  Shelley, Lovelady and Adams all told the Truth, -- except that their estimates of the minute-to-minute TIMING of their actions after the JFK assassination was always off by several minutes.

Baker and Truly also told the Truth -- and their TIMING of the events was very accurate, having been checked by stopwatch weeks afterwards.

CONCLUSION: if we really want to find who killed JFK, we are wasting our time by doubting TSBD workers.   We should be aggressively reviewing the WC testimony of DPD officers and Deputies.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 19, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

 

If we really want to find who killed JFK, we are wasting our time by doubting TSBD workers.   We should be aggressively reviewing the WC testimony of DPD officers and Deputies. 

 

Dear Word Twister,

What if at least one TSBD employee was involved, and certain other employees' testimonies and statements to the Warren Commission, the FBI, and / or the DPD were altered or fabricated in order to obscure that fact? 

--  Tommy

PS  What kind of "spin" can you come up with to explain why Shelley's and Lovelady's statements and testimonies varied so much, not only from each other's, but even from their own over time?

Edited March 20, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

IMHO, the WC testimony of both Shelly and Lovelady claiming that they turned back and saw Truly and Baker running into the TSBD is completely credible.

The only issue anybody really has with their testimony is their minute-to-minute TIMING of the events after the JFK assassination.

As Lovelady exclaimed in exasperation after the WC attorneys asked him several times for the EXACT minute of his actions, "I didn't have a stopwatch!"

It's admittedly a clumsy way of saying that he didn't expect to be questioned about the minute-to-minute TIMING, so he didn't write down in a journal exactly how long it took them to go to this corner, or talk to this person, or walk back to the TSBD -- or when they saw Vickie Adams.

THEY JUST DIDN'T REMEMBER.   Once we accept that ordinary fact, then the rest of their testimony just falls into place with Adams, Baker and Truly.  (And yes, I discount the claims made by Barry Ernest.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

How many minutes or seconds after the last shot do you think Baker entered the front entrance?

How many minutes after the assassination do you think Shelley and Lovelady entered the side or rear door of the TSBD?

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

Despite our differences here, I agree with Tommy on this point. 

(1) While the plaid shirt looks like Lovelady's -- and his bald spot looks like Lovelady's -- it's not enough data.  Lots of guys had plaid shirts and bald spots.  We need more.

(2) While the guy walking next to plaid-shirt-guy is wearing a suit jacket, as Shelley wore, lots of guys had suits jackets.  

(3) The suit-wearing guy looks plump to me -- while Shelley was skinny.

(4)  The two guys walking next to each other may or may not really be "together."   We must watch more of the film.  

(5)  They are walking from the east of the TSBD.   This matches none of the WC testimony.

(6) The real clincher -- Tommy's ID of Lovelady on the left side of the TSBD steps seems correct to me.  If that was Gloria Calvary stopping to talk to Lovelady, it's strong evidence.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Actually Paul, my comment was meant as light-hearted sarcasm aimed at those who still believe those two guys are Shelley and Lovelady. I'll highlight the sarcastic part in what I said:

Jeez Tommy, can't you see that that is Lovelady walking down the street, in his famous plaid shirt? And that Shelley is walking right next to him in his (not-so-famous) plaid jacket?

My point is that the frame has been so highly processed that, not only does it bring out a plaid design in alleged-Lovelady's shirt, but it does the same in alleged-Shelley's jacket. This despite the fact that Shelley's jacket had no pattern to it at all.

My position on this matter is identical to Thomas's. (Or nearly so.)

 

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

How many minutes or seconds after the last shot do you think Baker entered the front entrance?

How many minutes after the assassination do you think Shelley and Lovelady entered the side or rear door of the TSBD?

--  Tommy

Tommy,

Since Officer Baker was at the corner of Main and Houston when the JFK shots occurred, saw the pigeons fly off the roof of the TSBD, was instantly convinced that the shots came from the roof, sped his motorcycle to the TSBD, parked, glanced at the chaos of the Grassy Knoll and decided he was correct about the shots coming from the roof of the TSBD, I estimate less than one minute for Baker to run into the TSBD.  

Roy Truly immediately followed him. 

As for Shelley and Lovelady's re-entrance into the TSBD from the west side, I estimate no less than 6 minutes and no more than 10 minutes.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 20, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Tommy,

Why did you ask?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

10 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

Why did you ask?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

I'm just trying to figure out what your agenda is as regards the question: "Could Shelley and Lovelady (or maybe just Lovelady in case Shelley was inside calling his wife or helping the bad guys escape) have seen Baker and Truly run in the TSBD  from where they were (whenever it was that Baker and Truly entered the TSBD) and, concomitantly, would this space-time conundrum, according to your "CT", have any bearing on whether or not Shelley and Lovelady waited the "six to ten minutes" you claim to reenter the building (at the rear, of course) by which time Vicki Adams and her sidekick, Sandra Styles, had finally moseyed on down the wooden stairs, from the fourth floor to the first, and seen Shelley and Lovelady there with their very own eyes when they (Vicki and Sandra) finally got there, even though the reason Vicki and Sandra came down those wooden stairs to the first floor was so they could go outside and walk around to see what was goin' on out there, anyway, instead of hangin' around the Dr Pepper machine or something, chatting with charming Eddie Piper, and everything? 

--  Tommy

Edited March 23, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

14 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

I'm just trying to figure out what your agenda is as regards the question: "Could Shelley and Lovelady (or maybe just Lovelady in case Shelley was inside calling his wife or helping the bad guys escape) have seen Baker and Truly run in the TSBD  from where they were (whenever it was that Baker and Truly entered the TSBD) and, concomitantly, would this space-time conundrum, according to your "CT", have any bearing on whether or not Shelley and Lovelady waited the "six to ten minutes" you claim to reenter the building (at the rear, of course) by which time Vicki Adams and her sidekick, Sandra Styles, had finally moseyed on down the wooden stairs, from the fourth floor to the first, and seen Shelley and Lovelady there with their very own eyes when they (Vicki and Sandra) finally got there, even though the reason Vicki and Sandra came down those wooden stairs to the first floor was so they could go outside and walk around to see what was goin' on out there, anyway, instead of hangin' around the Dr Pepper machine or something, chatting with charming Eddie Piper, and everything? 

--  Tommy

Tommy,

IMHO, the WC testimony of all the TSBD workers tally well if we allow that their minute to minute TIMING was off.

First, Vicki and Sandra hung around the fourth floor gabbing with the girls and looking out of the many windows at the Grassy Knoll for 5-8 minutes, as Sandra seems to recall (not Vickie).

Secondly, Gloria Calvary came running up to Shelley and Lovelady within 20 seconds. After about 40 seconds they decided to take a closer look.

After Shelley and Lovelady got to that  "little old island" They heard someone holler so they looked back to see Baker and Truly run into the TSBD.

Then they walked with a cop to the railroad tracks, saw nothing special, and then returned to the TSBD side entrance where they saw Vickie and Sandra.

Regards 

--Paul Trejo