Thomas Graves

Was Lovelady A Big Fat Prevaricator, Or What?

119 posts in this topic

36 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Do you believe Lovelady over what Vicki Adams told author Barry Ernest?

PS  What's your problem?

Thomas,

Of the many things that Vickie Adams told author Barry Ernest (The Girl on the Stairs, 2013) what did you have in mind?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

P.S.  My main problem is that I don't read minds -- and some of your efforts to be super-clever are often just unclear.

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Just now, Paul Trejo said:

Thomas,

Of the many things that Vickie Adams told author Barry Ernest (The Girl on the Stairs, 2013) what did you have in mind?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

P.S.  My main problem is that I don't read minds -- and some of your efforts to be super-clever are often just unclear.

Word Twister,

You tell me.

--  Tommy :sun

PS  Paul Trejo --  "I don't read other people's minds.  I just put words in their mouths."

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8 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

You tell me.

--  Tommy :sun

Tommy,

You seem to enjoy riddles.   Why bother?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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41 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Of the many things that Vickie Adams told author Barry Ernest (The Girl on the Stairs, 2013) what did you have in mind?

Basically, Adams told Ernest that her WC testimony had been altered to make it sound as though she and Sandra Styles had encountered Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when they (Adams and Styles) walked down the back stairs a minute or two (going from memory here) after the assassination.

Adams and Styles both told Ernest that they seen neither Shelley nor Lovelady on the first floor after walking down those stairs.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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18 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Basically, Adams told Ernest that her WC testimony had been altered to make it sound as though she and Sandra Styles had encountered Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when they (Adams and Styles) walked down the back stairs a minute or two (going from memory here) after the assassination.

Adams and Styles both told Ernest that they seen neither Shelley nor Lovelady on the first floor after walking down those stairs.

--  Tommy :sun

Tommy,

OK, well, Vickie Adams is simply mistaken about it.

I've read her WC testimony very carefully, and that testimony says explicitly that Vickie and Sandra never saw LHO on the stairs.  Period.

Now -- Vickie told the WC that she did see Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor -- and that she even spoke to them, and they obviously heard her, but did not reply to her.

That's what she told the WC.   If she wanted to claim that the WC forged that, she should have told Ernest that -- but she didn't.

So, did Vickie lie to Ernest?  No.  Vickie was being asked leading questions by JFK researchers for a long time.   She got confused.  She probably thought that the questions from the JFK researchers had came from the WC testimony -- so naturally she imagined that the WC got it wrong.    No, it was all these JFK researchers.   She was just responding to them.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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9 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

OK, well, Vickie Adams is simply mistaken about it.

I've read her WC testimony very carefully, and that testimony says explicitly that Vickie and Sandra never saw LHO on the stairs.  Period.

Now -- Vickie told the WC that she did see Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor -- and that she even spoke to them, and they obviously heard her, but did not reply to her.

That's what she told the WC.   If she wanted to claim that the WC forged that, she should have told Ernest that -- but she didn't.

So, did Vickie lie to Ernest?  No.  Vickie was being asked leading questions by JFK researchers for a long time.   She got confused.  She probably thought that the questions from the JFK researchers had came from the WC testimony -- so naturally she imagined that the WC got it wrong.    No, it was all these JFK researchers.   She was just responding to them.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

You and I simply aren't on the same page, figuratively speaking.

Am I really communicating with you that poorly?

Did I say anything about LHO in my post?  Never mind.  That's not the important point right now.

The important point right now is that I said (or at least thought I said) that Adams told Ernest that the part in her WC testimony about her seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor was not true; that that part of her testimony had been altered , without her consent, by some unknown person either  on, or working for, the Warren Commission.

I also thought I told you that both Adams and Styles told Ernest fifteen years ago that they did not  see Shelley or Lovelady on the first floor, which statements, given to Ernest, tend to confirm, IMHFO (pardon my German) that Adams was telling Ernest the truth when she told him that that part of her WC testimony had been altered.

Question: What, exactly, do you not understand about that?

Unbelievable.

 

All the best,

 

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Perhaps Trejo can explain, why she apparently waived her right to go over her statement again and check for any corrections, as stated at the end of the transcript of her WC testimony and the Martha Joe Stroud letter which shows that V.A. did  go over her statement and corrected bits.

Perhaps he can also explain that until Feb 1964 there was no mention of this horse manure, whatsoever. 

Perhaps he can also explain how both Adams and Styles roughly 15 years ago both said they did NOT see Shelley and Lovelady.

Perhaps he can also explain the discrepancy with Lovelady and Shelley's statements either to the DPD/FBI and their WC & HSCA testimonies in comparison with that lie.

 

 

Take a break Paul, join Bill Miller and chill for a while.

 

 

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Perhaps Paul can explain why Lovelady and Shelley didn't see Adams, when they returned to the TSBD.

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7 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Perhaps Trejo can explain, why she apparently waived her right to go over her statement again and check for any corrections, as stated at the end of the transcript of her WC testimony and the Martha Joe Stroud letter which shows that V.A. did  go over her statement and corrected bits.

Perhaps he can also explain that until Feb 1964 there was no mention of this horse manure, whatsoever. 

Perhaps he can also explain how both Adams and Styles roughly 15 years ago both said they did NOT see Shelley and Lovelady.

Perhaps he can also explain the discrepancy with Lovelady and Shelley's statements either to the DPD/FBI and their WC & HSCA testimonies in comparison with that lie.

Take a break Paul, join Bill Miller and chill for a while.

Bart,

Tommy was not being clear in his original question.   Reading the post WC interviews of Sandra Styles, I got the impression of somebody who was unwilling to commit to ANYTHING at all.

In his artsy last post, after dragging it out of him, Tommy finally said what he had been trying to say all night.

The problem I have with Vickie Adams is that even in her WC testimony, she could not guess timeframes well.  She was asked to clarify, IIRC, and she could not.   By the way, this was the same with many of the WC witnesses, e.g. Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley.   Like Lovelady said, he didn't have a stopwatch, so why keep pressing him for "how many minutes did this take?" and "how many minutes did that take?"

The WC attorneys asked for timeframes continually -- but they got very clumsy answers.  This makes sense because of the scenario -- JFK had just been shot in their hearing, and there was literal chaos in Dealey Plaza.  People were RUNNING AROUND like madmen.   People didn't stop, like a lawyer, to take out their notepads and write down events with timestamps by each event.

The real problem we have with Vickie Adams, IMHO, is that she was scattered at the time, and she could not remember the timeframes very well.  She was pressed, and she tried to answer, but her answers were of the type -- "This is the best I can do!  Get off my back!"

Vickie said she and Sandra saw Lovelady and Shelley.   Lovelady and Shelley barely remember her.   ("Yeah, I saw some lady there, I guess.")

Based on this, over the years, the clarity of the moment can fade.

The great likelihood, IMHO, is that Vickie's first testimony is the correct one.   Yet JFK researchers hammered her over decades to DEMAND of her WHY she didn't see LHO on the stairs when she and Sandra ran down.

The timeframes were never settled, so WHY demand it?  Only because they had CT's to which they were married.   Poor Vickie.

The great likelihood, IMHO, is that Vickie's sense of timing was compressed -- which is common in a crisis.  She dallied on the 4th floor windows longer than she imagined.   Sandra Styles also thought so -- but she didn't want to contradict her friend Vickie, who had testified under oath.  But for Sandra Styles, it seemed like they gabbed longer upstairs with the girls at the many 4th floor windows, watching the amazing chaos of Dealey Plaza flood with people and DPD police officers -- that they lost track of time.

It took Shelley and Lovelady 7-10 minutes to make a complete oval from the TSBD to the railroad tracks and back -- and they saw Vickie and Sandra, who also saw them and called out to them.  They didn't reply back, because the chaos of the moment was so intense.

That's what Vickie told the WC -- and i see no reason to doubt that.   That's my position.

Now -- over the decades, with interviewers relentlessly asking, again and again -- WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE LHO ON THE STAIRS?? -- the emphasis on this point caused Vickie to doubt her own memories.   When people remember Vickie Adams' testimony to this day, that's the only question they want to know.

Now -- in my CT, LHO wasn't on those stairs.  LHO was on the 2nd floor the whole time, eating his lunch ALONE as he usually did, because there was nobody there at the TSBD who was interesting enough to hang around with -- no readers.   So, that's another reason why.

In any case, Vickie and Sandra actually came down the stairs in time to see Shelley and Lovelady, which is far later than she remembered -- IN ALL THE CHAOS.   All the massive attention she got about that moment in later years caused her to doubt her own memories. 

I still don't see why anybody would doubt the testimony of Billy Lovelady.  He wasn't very bright, but so what?  Where's the problem?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bart,

Tommy was not being clear in his original question.   Reading the post WC interviews of Sandra Styles, I got the impression of somebody who was unwilling to commit to ANYTHING at all.

[A]fter dragging it out of him, Tommy finally said what he had been trying to say all night.

The problem I have with Vickie Adams is that even in her WC testimony, she could not guess timeframes well.  She was asked to clarify, IIRC, and she could not.   By the way, this was the same with many of the WC witnesses, e.g. Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley.   Like Lovelady said, he didn't have a stopwatch, so why keep pressing him for "how many minutes did this take?" and "how many minutes did that take?"

The WC attorneys asked for timeframes continually -- but they got very clumsy answers.  This makes sense because of the scenario -- JFK had just been shot in their hearing, and there was literal chaos in Dealey Plaza.  People were RUNNING AROUND like madmen.   People didn't stop, like a lawyer, to take out their notepads and write down events with timestamps by each event.

The real problem we have with Vickie Adams, IMHO, is that she was scattered at the time, and she could not remember the timeframes very well.  She was pressed, and she tried to answer, but her answers were of the type -- "This is the best I can do!  Get off my back!"

Vickie said she and Sandra saw Lovelady and Shelley.   Lovelady and Shelley barely remember her.   ("Yeah, I saw some lady there, I guess.")

Based on this, over the years, the clarity of the moment can fade.

The great likelihood, IMHO, is that Vickie's first testimony is the correct one.   Yet JFK researchers hammered her over decades to DEMAND of her WHY she didn't see LHO on the stairs when she and Sandra ran down.

The timeframes were never settled, so WHY demand it?  Only because they had CT's to which they were married.   Poor Vickie.

The great likelihood, IMHO, is that Vickie's sense of timing was compressed -- which is common in a crisis.  She dallied on the 4th floor windows longer than she imagined.   Sandra Styles also thought so -- but she didn't want to contradict her friend Vickie, who had testified under oath.  But for Sandra Styles, it seemed like they gabbed longer upstairs with the girls at the many 4th floor windows, watching the amazing chaos of Dealey Plaza flood with people and DPD police officers -- that they lost track of time.

It took Shelley and Lovelady 7-10 minutes to make a complete oval from the TSBD to the railroad tracks and back -- and they saw Vickie and Sandra, who also saw them and called out to them.  They didn't reply back, because the chaos of the moment was so intense.

That's what Vickie told the WC -- and i see no reason to doubt that.   That's my position.

Now -- over the decades, with interviewers relentlessly asking, again and again -- WHY DIDN'T YOU SEE LHO ON THE STAIRS?? -- the emphasis on this point caused Vickie to doubt her own memories.   When people remember Vickie Adams' testimony to this day, that's the only question they want to know.

Now -- in my CT, LHO wasn't on those stairs.  LHO was on the 2nd floor the whole time, eating his lunch ALONE as he usually did, because there was nobody there at the TSBD who was interesting enough to hang around with -- no readers.   So, that's another reason why.

In any case, Vickie and Sandra actually came down the stairs in time to see Shelley and Lovelady, which is far later than she remembered -- IN ALL THE CHAOS.   All the massive attention she got about that moment in later years caused her to doubt her own memories. 

I still don't see why anybody would doubt the testimony of Billy Lovelady.  He wasn't very bright, but so what?  Where's the problem?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

"Dear Paul"

1 )  Where did she say that?

In her W.C. testimony?

To Barry Ernest?

 

2 )  LOL!

3 )  And what, pray tell was that ?

What was it that you finally "dragged out" of me that I didn't say here?:

"Basically, Adams told Ernest that her WC testimony had been altered to make it sound as though she and Sandra Styles had encountered Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when they (Adams and Styles) walked down the back stairs a minute or two (going from memory here) after the assassination.

Adams and Styles both told Ernest that they seen neither Shelley nor Lovelady on the first floor after walking down those stairs."

 

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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29 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

"Dear Paul"

1 )  Where did she say that?

In her W.C. testimony?

To Barry Ernest?

 --  Tommy :sun

Tommy,

If I can read your ARTSY riddles correctly, you are asking where Vickie Adams said that she and Sandra Styles met Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady on the 1st floor of the TSBD, shortly after the JFK shooting. 

The answer is...in her WC testimony.  Here is the snippet:

Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.  It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out.
Mr. BELIN - Was anyone going along with you?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.

So, there it is, Tommy.  There is actually more.  She was asked for any conversation -- and there was the beginning of a conversation.  So, it was no mistake.  The testimony is clear.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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18 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

If I can read your ARTSY riddles correctly, you are asking where Vickie Adams said that she and Sandra Styles met Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady on the 1st floor of the TSBD, shortly after the JFK shooting. 

The answer is...in her WC testimony.  Here is the snippet:

Miss ADAMS - And from our vantage point we were able to see what the President's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract men's attention. Then we heard---then we were obstructed from the view.
Mr. BELIN - By what?
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.  It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out.
Mr. BELIN - Was anyone going along with you?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.

So, there it is, Tommy.  There is actually more.  She was asked for any conversation -- and there was the beginning of a conversation.  So, it was no mistake.  The testimony is clear.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 [emphasis added by T. Graves]

"Dear Paul"

You can't seem to grasp the concept that not only did Adams and Styles tell author Barry Ernest that they did not see Shelly or Lovelady, but that Adams also told Ernest that her W.C. testimony about that very issue had been altered to make it look like she had seen them.

It's all very complicated, isn't it. 

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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45 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

"Dear Paul"

1 )  Where did she say that?

In her W.C. testimony?

To Barry Ernest?

 

2 )  LOL!

3 )  And what, pray tell was that ?

What was it that you finally "dragged out" of me that I didn't say here?:

"Basically, Adams told Ernest that her WC testimony had been altered to make it sound as though she and Sandra Styles had encountered Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor when they (Adams and Styles) walked down the back stairs a minute or two (going from memory here) after the assassination.

Adams and Styles both told Ernest that they seen neither Shelley nor Lovelady on the first floor after walking down those stairs."

 

--  Tommy :sun

edited and bumped

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If you believe Shelley and Lovelady, then you have to believe it took Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles ten minutes to get from the fourth floor to the first for them to be seen by the two men. TEN minutes !!!!

But wait, where did Shelley say he saw Vicki?

"Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.
Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?
Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.
Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that."

It's a no brainer. Shelley and Lovelady were lying.

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