HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.

[Sandy Larsen]

Warning: This thread has been hijacked. The premise of the thread, as laid out in this first post, has been ignored and changed because participants didn't like it.

EDIT:  However, ultimately it didn't matter to me that the thread was overtaken. Because I eventually came to the same conclusion as others, that both Lovelady and Shelley did lie. The purpose of their lies was to cover up Oswald's alibi, which was that he was outside watching the motorcade during the shooting.

 

The more I've familiarized myself with the evidence, the more I'm coming to believe that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady didn't lie after all.

Please hear me out.

First, I want to say that I believe the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter never took place. It was concocted to remove Oswald from the 1st floor during the shooting.

Second, I want to say that I don't believe Officer Baker entered the TSBD until at least three minutes after the shooting. The film evidence shows that his "mad dash" wasn't aimed at the TSBD entrance, but rather at the Elm/Houston intersection just to the east. And WC testimony indicates that Baker indeed did enter the TSBD late. (Not the 20 to 30 seconds we all hear.)

That said, it has occurred to me that there are no difficulties with the WC testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady. They don't seem to contradict much if anything that is widely believed among CTers. Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies agree with one another, and the following approximate timeline can be drawn from their accounts:

Shelley & Lovelady Timeline:

00:00  Heard last shot at TSBD steps.
03:00  Gloria Calvery arrives at steps. Informs them of Kennedy being shot.
03:30  They arrive at island across the street. Shelley sees Truly & Baker at TSBD steps.
04:30  Shelley & Lovelady leave island, fast-walk toward railroad yard. After first 15 to 25
           steps, Lovelady looks back and sees Truly & Baker enter the TSBD. (There are
           75 to 100 yards to railroad yard.)
05:30  Arrive at railroad yard.
07:00  Enter west door of TSBD. Lovelady sees girl, won't swear to her being
          Victoria Adams.

According to both Shelley and Lovelady, it took about 3 minutes after the shooting for Gloria Calvery to arrive at the TSBD steps. And according to both, Truly and Baker don't enter the TSBD till shortly after that.

Many researchers still believe Officer Baker was intent on running directly into the TSBD, but the films prove otherwise. Shelley and Lovelady testify otherwise. Only one other witness saw Baker run into the TSBD. I need to check with her testimony again and see when she thought Baker entered.

Many researchers believe that Shelley and Lovelady are the two men seen, in the films, walking down Elm Street extension. But this belief has problems. One is that Lovelady can still be seen on the TSBD steps. He can't be both there and walking down the extension simultaneously! Of the two guys walking down the street, the one identified as Shelley is taller than the one identified as Lovelady. Robert Prudhomme has shown that Shelley MAY be the shorter of the two. (He's working to confirm this.)

It's looking more and more like Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies fit just fine with the other evidence. And that there is no reason to suspect lies.

The goal of this thread is to determine whether this hypothesis is viable, or if factors I have not considered make it unlikely or impossible.

After studying carefully the testimony of Victoria Adams, I have concluded that she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady when she arrived at the bottom of the stairs, unless she came down much later then when she said. It is my belief that she did come down quickly, and that the part of her testimony about seeing Shelley and Lovelady must have been added by the Feds in order to discredit her timing. There is compelling evidence and testimony supporting this allegation.

In order to keep this thread focused on finding facts I've missed, I don't want to have Victoria Adam's testimony debated here. That can be debated on a dedicated thread.

 

 

Table of Contents

• Encounters' Importance Described and Bart Kamp's Scenario vs My Scenario Compared
• Accepted Range of Witness-Perceived Timing
• Alistair Briggs' List of Witnesses Allegedly Contradicting Shelley & Lovelady.
• Issues to Address:  See below.
• Testimony Sources:  See below.

 

 

Issues to Address

• Regarding Alistair Briggs' List of Witnesses Allegedly Contradicting Shelley & Lovelady.
• Regarding Shelley's & Lovelady's first day affidavits, where they say they left the steps immediately.
• Regarding Shelley's first day statement, where he says that he and Gloria Calvery met at the little old island.
• Regarding Lovelady's 11/22/63 FBI interview:  Immediately after the shooting, he and Shelley ran toward limo.

 

 

Testimony Sources

Victoria Adams

     FBI Report, 11/24/63
          http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0005a.gif
     DPD Report, 2/17/64
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Report-typed-by-J.-R.-Leavelle-1.jpg
          (This is a re-interview supposedly done because the 11/24/63 interview by the FBI was
          destroyed in a fire. Which is not true.)
     FBI Report, 3/23/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 2.)
     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page387.php
 

Marrion Baker

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          [need link. search text: "I saw a man walking away from the stairway"]
     FBI Report, 11/24/63
          [need link. search text: "who observed lee harvey oswald in the company snack bar"]
     FBI Report, 11/29/63
          [need link. search text: "observed lee harvey oswald on the second floor of the building"]
     WC Deposition, 3/25/64
          [need link. search text: "I caught a glimpse of him and I ran over there and opened that door"]
     Voluntary Statement to the FBI, 9/23/64
          [need link. search text: "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might"]
 

Billy Lovelady

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0470-001.gif
     FBI Report, 11/22/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Report-BNL-Nov-23-1963.jpg
     SS Report, 12/7/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Commission-Document-87-Secret-Service-report-of-08-Jan-1964-re-Oswald-1.jpg
     FBI Statement, 3/19/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 62.)
     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page336.php
 

Lee Harvey Oswald

     Interrogations
          http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app11.htm
 

Bill Shelley

     DPD Affidavit, 11/22/63
          http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/04/0492-001.gif
     FBI  Report, 11/23/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/FBI-Report-Nov-23-1963.jpg
     SS Report, 12/7/63
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Commission-Document-87-Secret-Service-report-of-08-Jan-1964-re-Oswald.png
          http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Commission-Document-87-Secret-Service-report-of-08-Jan-1964-re-Oswald-2.png
     FBI Statement, 3/18/64
          http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
          (See page 84.)
     WC Deposition, 4/7/64
          http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol6/page327.php
    WC Deposition, 5/14/64
          https://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol7/page390.php

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Sandy Larsen

[Paul Trejo]

Sandy,

I've read the WC testimony you write about -- and I have a different take on it.  Firstly, when it comes to TIMING, I find I can rarely accept the witnesses estimation of time.  it is almost always wildly incorrect.  Unless somebody actually looked at a clock at the moment of their action (which was extremely rare) I find they can be many minutes off in their estimations.

Usually, their estimations are "recalled" to justify opinions -- especially when it comes to the behavior of OTHERS.  However, when it comes to timing one's own behavior, and nobody else's -- that is a different story.  For example, DPD officer Marrion Baker testified that it took him about 90 seconds to ride from Houston and Elm toward the TSBD, and then rush inside, meet Roy Truly -- and then meet LHO in person.  He timed it later.

Now -- let's take that with a grain of salt -- his ego was clearly on the line.  However, I cannot believe that it took Marrion Baker as much as 3 minutes to ride his motorcycle from Houston and Elm and rush inside, then rush upstairs one floor.

Also, Roy Truly did not contradict the testimony of Marrion Baker that he met Roy Truly in the lobby of the TSBD, not outside. 

It's not that anybody is lying, IMHO, but simply that their memories were dulled by two factors: (1) the fact that the WC took months before questioning anybody; and (2) the fact that these Dallas witnesses were able to talk with each other for months, exchanging ideas, correcting each other, and arguing with each other, and modifying their recollections. 

Just to make a first line in the sand, let's review Baker's testimony.

------------ BEGIN EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF MARRION BAKER ------------------

Representative BOGGS - ...How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?
Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that [on Friday, March 20, 1964]...And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot...we simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that, you know. it took me a little longer.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

------------ END EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF MARRION BAKER ------------------

Now -- somebody might argue that DPD officer Marrion Baker was lying in order to frame LHO within a DPD conspiracy.  Yet while I myself believe that the rogue elements of the DPD, the Dallas Sheriff's office and local Dallas officials did indeed frame LHO -- nevertheless, I myself find no lying in Baker's testimony.

The main factor for me is that Roy Truly's separate WC testimony confirms Marrion Baker's testimony.  The timing, and so forth.

The other TSBD employee witnesses seem to be more scattered, more uncertain, more prone to errors in recollection and especially in timing.

In conclusion -- while I do believe in a conspiracy against LHO that involved rogue DPD officers (and led by General Walker's Minutemen) -- which might even involve Dallas Postmaster James Humes, I don't count every single DPD officer in that conspiracy.  Most of them were clueless, IMHO.  

Marrion Baker's WC testimony is believable to me -- as is Roy Truly's WC testimony, and IMHO it proves that LHO was not on the 6th floor when the shots rang out.  There was simply not enough time for LHO to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor, buy a Coke and meet Marrion Baker cool, calm and collected (as Baker testifies) in the 75 to 90 seconds of elapsed time.

Also, Roy Truly emphasized his belief that the shots came from the Grassy Knoll -- so he was not a conspirator, IMHO.  He was also clueless.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 3, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

Paul,

The WC testimonies of both Shelley and Lovelady contradict the "official story" of Truly and Officer Baker as far as the timing is concerned. Both Shelley and Lovelady said that it was at least 3 minutes after the shooting before Truly and Baker entered the TSBD. OTOH the official story is that they entered much sooner than that... perhaps within 30 seconds.

So in this respect, Shelley/Lovelady conflicts with Truly/Baker.
 

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

I've read the WC testimony you write about -- and I have a different take on it. 

The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss alternatives to the scenario I described in the original post. The purpose is to discuss the viability of that scenario.

Firstly, when it comes to TIMING, I find I can rarely accept the witnesses estimation of time. 

That's a valid point. However, it is my contention that the two people testifying to the 3 minute time frame -- Shelley and Lovelady -- would have noticed the vast difference between that and the 20 to 30 second time frame required by the official story.

it is almost always wildly incorrect.  Unless somebody actually looked at a clock at the moment of their action (which was extremely rare) I find they can be many minutes off in their estimations.

Usually, their estimations are "recalled" to justify opinions -- especially when it comes to the behavior of OTHERS.  However, when it comes to timing one's own behavior, and nobody else's -- that is a different story.  For example, DPD officer Marrion Baker testified that it took him about 90 seconds to ride from Houston and Elm toward the TSBD, and then rush inside, meet Roy Truly -- and then meet LHO in person.  He timed it later.

Now -- let's take that with a grain of salt -- his ego was clearly on the line. 

However, I cannot believe that it took Marrion Baker as much as 3 minutes to ride his motorcycle from Houston and Elm and rush inside, then rush upstairs one floor.

Why can't you believe it took three or four minutes instead of 90 seconds for Truly and Baker to enter the TSBD? Is it because the Darnell film shows Baker running across Elm Street extension? You know, don't you, that the film doesn't show Baker entering the TSBD. In fact, by the time the film ends, Baker is still about 15 feet away from the entrance. But more importantly, the film shows that Baker was running toward the intersection of Houston and Elm, not the TSBD. (See Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?)

So apparently Baker ran somewhere other than the TSBD entrance first, and then about 2 or 3 minutes later he entered the TSBD.

Also, Roy Truly did not contradict the testimony of Marrion Baker that he met Roy Truly in the lobby of the TSBD, not outside. 

This thread has Shelley and Lovelady getting the facts straight. If it means that Truly, Baker, and others didn't, then so be it. (The exception is if the corroborated testimony of others overwhelms that of Shelley and Lovelady.)

It's not that anybody is lying, IMHO, but simply that their memories were dulled by two factors:

That's fine. I used the phrase "telling the truth" only because Shelley and Lovelady had been accused of lying.

(1) the fact that the WC took months before questioning anybody; and (2) the fact that these Dallas witnesses were able to talk with each other for months, exchanging ideas, correcting each other, and arguing with each other, and modifying their recollections. 

Just to make a first line in the sand, let's review Baker's testimony.

------------ BEGIN EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF MARRION BAKER ------------------

Representative BOGGS - ...How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?
Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that [on Friday, March 20, 1964]...And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot...we simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that, you know. it took me a little longer.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

------------ END EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF MARRION BAKER ------------------

Now -- somebody might argue that DPD officer Marrion Baker was lying in order to frame LHO within a DPD conspiracy.  Yet while I myself believe that the rogue elements of the DPD, the Dallas Sheriff's office and local Dallas officials did indeed frame LHO -- nevertheless, I myself find no lying in Baker's testimony.

The premise of this thread requires us to disbelieve Baker and Truly. (Is that any more objectionable than disbelieving Shelley and Lovelady?)

The main factor for me is that Roy Truly's separate WC testimony confirms Marrion Baker's testimony.  The timing, and so forth.

The other TSBD employee witnesses seem to be more scattered, more uncertain, more prone to errors in recollection and especially in timing.

In conclusion -- while I do believe in a conspiracy against LHO that involved rogue DPD officers (and led by General Walker's Minutemen) -- which might even involve Dallas Postmaster James Humes, I don't count every single DPD officer in that conspiracy.  Most of them were clueless, IMHO.  

Marrion Baker's WC testimony is believable to me -- as is Roy Truly's WC testimony, and IMHO it proves that LHO was not on the 6th floor when the shots rang out.  There was simply not enough time for LHO to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor, buy a Coke and meet Marrion Baker cool, calm and collected (as Baker testifies) in the 75 to 90 seconds of elapsed time.

Also, Roy Truly emphasized his belief that the shots came from the Grassy Knoll -- so he was not a conspirator, IMHO.  He was also clueless.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

On 1/1/2017 at 7:22 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

03:00  Gloria Calvery arrives at steps. Informs them of Kennedy's wounds.

 

Do you think Gloria Calvery could be the woman who shouted to Joe Marshall Smith that "they are shooting the President from the bushes"?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes".

Was Calvery "in hysterics"? I don't know, I was just asking.

 

Steve Thomas

[Alistair Briggs]

As an aside, regarding Baker's testimony and the 75 - 90 seconds!

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

------------ BEGIN EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF MARRION BAKER ------------------

Representative BOGGS - ...How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred?
Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that [on Friday, March 20, 1964]...And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and--
Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot?
Mr. BAKER - From the last shot.
Mr. BELIN - The first shot.
Mr. DULLES - The first shot?
Mr. BAKER - The first shot...we simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that, you know. it took me a little longer.
Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald.
Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much?
Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.

------------ END EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF MARRION BAKER ------------------

 

The 75 - 90 seconds therein mentioned were the times it took in the two trial runs. But look a couple of lines up and Baker says that would be the 'minimum' and he is sure it took longer. A few lines later in his testimony, the following exchange happened;

Mr. BELIN - You mentioned the relationship between what we did on March 20 and what actually occurred on November 22. Would you estimate that what we did on March 20 was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took?
Mr. BAKER - I would say it would be the minimum.
Mr. BELIN - For instance, on March 20 did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? Did we slow down at all for that?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did we slow down at all on March 20 for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down Elm Street and the Parkway?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir.

That's clearly two things that would have pushed the time up! By how much I don't know, but from Baker's testimony he is saying that on the actual day the time it took between the shots and 'meeting Oswald' was longer than the two trial runs were.

Delving further in to Baker's testimony, they did two trial runs on how long it could have taken a 6th floor sniper to do the shooting and make it down to the 2nd floor lunchroom, including the 'stashing' of the rifle! (I have bolded for emphasis parts I feel are most important here)

Mr. BELIN - Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we made two test runs.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Do you remember what the route was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Mr. BAKER - We walked down the east wall.
Mr. BELIN - We started at that particular corner?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN - All right. We walked down the east wall, you say?
Mr. BAKER - That is right.
Mr. BELIN - All right, then where did we go?
Mr. BAKER - To the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was.
Mr. BELIN - All right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner?
Mr. BAKER - That is right.
Mr. BELIN - Then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There was, it seems to me like his name was John--anyway, he was a Secret Service man.
Mr. BELIN - John Howlett.
Mr. BAKER - John Howlett. That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did Mr. Howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BELIN - And then what did we do when we got to the where did he do that, do you remember?
Mr. BAKER - That would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left- hand side there.
Mr. BELIN - All right. And Secret Service Agent Howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there?
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did he do?
Mr. BAKER - Then we continued on down the stairs.
Mr. BELIN - To the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember how long that took?
Mr. BAKER - The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds.
Mr. BELIN - What about the second time?
Mr. BAKER - And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.

It does lead to the question of what the time would have been if it had been running!

*Aside over.
 

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul,

The WC testimonies of both Shelley and Lovelady contradict the "official story" of Truly and Officer Baker as far as the timing is concerned. Both Shelley and Lovelady said that it was at least 3 minutes after the shooting before Truly and Baker entered the TSBD. OTOH the official story is that they entered much sooner than that... perhaps within 30 seconds.

So in this respect, Shelley/Lovelady conflicts with Truly/Baker.

...Why can't you believe it took three or four minutes instead of 90 seconds for Truly and Baker to enter the TSBD? Is it because the Darnell film shows Baker running across Elm Street extension? You know, don't you, that the film doesn't show Baker entering the TSBD. In fact, by the time the film ends, Baker is still about 15 feet away from the entrance. But more importantly, the film shows that Baker was running toward the intersection of Houston and Elm, not the TSBD. (See Officer Marrion Baker's mad dash for the.... Dal-Tex building?)

So apparently Baker ran somewhere other than the TSBD entrance first, and then about 2 or 3 minutes later he entered the TSBD.

Sandy,

I accept your premise that there is a clash between Shelly-Lovelady and Truly-Baker.  I also find this clash to be interesting, and worthy of exploration.

Yet I'm not playing devil's advocate here -- I simply found Truly-Baker more believable.   Not that Shelly-Lovelady are lying -- but they were pushing hard for a Grassy Knoll scenario.  That push, IMHO, may have caused them to modify their recollections over the months that elapsed before their WC testimony.

Your question, "Why can't you believe it took three or four minutes instead of 90 seconds?"  That's the main question, IMHO.

My logic is that I put myself in DPD officer Marrion Baker's position, according to his testimony.  Here's what he said, in summary form:

(1) As soon as Baker heard the JFK shots, he looked northward on Houston Street from the corner of Main and Houston, and he immediately thought that the shots came from the roof of the TSBD.  He did not question that belief. 

(2) Baker felt it was his personal duty to apprehend the culprit.  So he raced in his motorcycle from Main Street to Elm Street.  That's a short way -- half a normal city block.  It would take less than 15 seconds on a motorcycle.  Once at the entrance to the TSBD, Baker looked west on Elm Street toward the scene of the crime, since so many people were rushing toward the Grassy Knoll.  This did not delay Baker.  Baker was certain that the culprit was still on the roof of the TSBD.  This was at most another 15 seconds.

(3) Once at the TSBD, Baker had no other goal than to rush to the roof of the TSBD.  Even though there were lots of people around, they were Dallas people, that is, they would quickly step aside for a DPD officer; no questions asked.   This was at most another 15 seconds.

(4) Once inside the lobby of the TSBD, Baker shouted for directions -- WHERE IS THE ELEVATOR?  Roy Truly quickly appeared, and took him to the elevator, and pushed the button, but heard no response.  He shouted up.  No response.  As they waited, Baker told Truly that he simply must get to the roof of the TSBD immediately.  Roy Truly asked why, because he was sure that the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.  Baker didn't argue the point -- he simply insisted -- GET ME TO THE ROOF!  This could have taken up to 30 seconds.

(5) Then Roy Truly guided officer Baker to the stairway.  This was at most another 15 seconds, to get to the stairwell.  They started up to the 2nd floor.

(6) Once on the 2nd floor, Baker quickly looked around for anybody trying to escape.  He saw LHO's head through a glass window in the lunchroom door.  He shouted out.   LHO calmly turned around, Coke in hand, and faced Baker.  This was at most 15 seconds, by my estimation.

So, Sandy, just going by my own reactions, with the emotions and adrenalin of firmly believing that the shots came from the TSBD roof -- not letting any other opinion influence me, and rushing as fast as I could from the corner of Main and Houston on a motorcycle -- I still count 90 seconds maximum to cover that same ground.   IMHO, 75 seconds is a more likely scenario.

Like Alistair Briggs noted -- the recreated timing steps were done with a fast walk.  Yet the greater likelihood is that officer Baker was moving as fast as he could under the circumstances.  So, 75 seconds is the most reasonable time, IMHO.

That's just my take on the evidence.  I realize that I haven't said anything yet about Shelley-Lovelady.   I'll get to them next.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[David Josephs]

Sandy,

 

Bookout describes Oswald's interrogation responses like this:

It suggests that Shelley was the source for Oswald leaving for Home.  But it also plays a little havoc with the timeline you've offered.

Also wondering why "SHELLEY" is almost removed, twice.   Can Shelley telling the truth work with this? - this is the only interrogation report that mentions this - I believe.

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by David Josephs

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

I accept your premise that there is a clash between Shelly-Lovelady and Truly-Baker.  I also find this clash to be interesting, and worthy of exploration.

Yet I'm not playing devil's advocate here -- I simply found Truly-Baker more believable.   Not that Shelly-Lovelady are lying -- but they were pushing hard for a Grassy Knoll scenario.  That push, IMHO, may have caused them to modify their recollections over the months that elapsed before their WC testimony.

Your question, "Why can't you believe it took three or four minutes instead of 90 seconds?"  That's the main question, IMHO.

My logic is that I put myself in DPD officer Marrion Baker's position, according to his testimony.  Here's what he said, in summary form:

(1) As soon as Baker heard the JFK shots, he looked down Houston Street from the corner of Main and Houston, and he immediately thought that the shots came from the roof of the TSBD.  He did not question that belief. 

(2) Baker felt it was his personal duty to apprehend the culprit.  So he raced in his motorcycle from Main Street to Elm Street.  That's a short way -- half a normal city block.  It would take less than 15 seconds on a motorcycle.  Once at the entrance to the TSBD, Baker looked west on Elm Street toward the scene of the crime, since so many people were rushing toward the Grassy Knoll.  This did not delay Baker.  Baker was certain that the culprit was still on the roof of the TSBD.  This was at most another 15 seconds.

(3) Once at the TSBD, Baker had no other goal than to rush to the roof of the TSBD.  Even though there were lots of people around, they were Dallas people, that is, they would quickly step aside for a DPD officer; no questions asked.   This was at most another 15 seconds.

(4) Once inside the lobby of the TSBD, Baker shouted for directions -- WHERE IS THE ELEVATOR?  Roy Truly quickly appeared, and took him to the elevator, and pushed the button, but heard no response.  He shouted up.  No response.  As they waited, Baker told Truly that he simply must get to the roof of the TSBD immediately.  Roy Truly asked why, because he was sure that the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.  Baker didn't argue the point -- he simply insisted -- GET ME TO THE ROOF!  This could have taken up to 30 seconds.

(5) Then Roy Truly guided officer Baker to the stairway.  This was at most another 15 seconds, to get to the stairwell.  They started up to the 2nd floor.

(6) Once on the 2nd floor, Baker quickly looked around for anybody trying to escape.  He saw LHO's head through a glass window in the lunchroom door.  He shouted out.   LHO calmly turned around, Coke in hand, and faced Baker.  This was at most 15 seconds, by my estimation.

So, Sandy, just going by my own reactions, with the emotions and adrenalin of firmly believing that the shots came from the TSBD roof -- not letting any other opinion influence me, and rushing as fast as I could from the corner of Main and Houston on a motorcycle -- I still count 90 seconds maximum to cover that same ground.   IMHO, 75 seconds is a more likely scenario.

Like Alistair Briggs noted -- the recreated steps were done with a fast walk.  Yet the greater likelihood is that officer Baker was moving as fast as he could under the circumstances.  So, 75 seconds is the most reasonable time, IMHO.

That's just my take on the evidence.  I realize that I haven't said anything yet about Shelley-Lovelady.   I'll get to them next.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul, with all due respect, I ask you to post nothing more about a theory competing with the one I laid out in the original post.

I want the scope of this thread to be this:

1. Assume that Shelley and Lovelady's statements and testimonies are essentially correct.
2. If their testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, the others are to be considered incorrect.
3. The question to be answered in this thread is this: Is this scenario viable?

Here is what I mean by "viable:"

• Shelley and Lovelady do not contradict themselves or each other irreconcilably.
• Where Shelley and Lovelady's testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, can those contradictions be explained in a way that makes sense. For example, the contradiction with Truly/Baker came about because it was necessary to show Oswald to be on the 2nd floor, away from the first floor during the shooting.

As for the theory that you put forth here, Paul, I think it is one that should be explored. But not here.

BTW Paul, I have a competing scenario myself that probably fits in with yours. The impetus behind this thread's scenario is that both Shelley and Lovelady testified that it took about 3 minutes for Truly and Baker to enter the TSBD. The testimonies corroborate one another and therefore seem truthful and correct. However, another possible explanation for their testimonies matching one another is that they were coached to say 3 minutes (for some reason). The reason for considering this possibility is that it allows the Truly/Baker testimony to remain factual.

Perhaps this scenario can be discussed in a future thread. I chose to discuss this scenario put forth here first because it seems to have more support from other evidence,

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Do you think Gloria Calvery could be the woman who shouted to Joe Marshall Smith that "they are shooting the President from the bushes"?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes".

Was Calvery "in hysterics"? I don't know, I was just asking.

 

Steve Thomas

Thanks Steve. I hope that an expert on Gloria Calvery can answer that question.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

The 75 - 90 seconds therein mentioned were the times it took in the two trial runs. But look a couple of lines up and Baker says that would be the 'minimum' and he is sure it took longer.

Alistair,

Yes, the 75 to 90 seconds was the minimum amount of time measured for Baker to get to the second floor. And, as you pointed out, these were measured reenactment times that didn't include time Baker spent on studying the situation, etc.

For the sake of this thread's scenario, I'd add that the 75 to 90 seconds doesn't include the time between Baker's last step shown in the films, where he's headed toward the Houston/Elm intersection, and the time he enters the TSBD. Which was roughly 3 minutes according to Shelley and Lovelady.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Sandy,

 

Bookout describes Oswald's interrogation responses like this:

It suggests that Shelley was the source for Oswald leaving for Home.  But it also plays a little havoc with the timeline you've offered.

Also wondering why "SHELLEY" is almost removed, twice.   Can Shelley telling the truth work with this? - this is the only interrogation report that mentions this - I believe.

David,

If we accept Shelley and Lovelady's testimonies (which we do for this thread), then there is little reason to believe the 2nd floor encounter took place.

Why?

First, because Baker doesn't even mention a 2nd floor encounter in his first-day statement. He mentioned a 3rd or 4th floor encounter. I doubt that Baker would mistake a 2nd floor with a 4th floor. In addition he said the guy he encountered weighed about 165 lb, that being 30 lb more than Oswald's weight. Plus, didn't he say the guy was wearing a jacket? Was Oswald wearing a jacket that day?

Second, isn't it correct that there is evidence that Oswald was on the first floor during the shooting? (ROKC has presented some, I believe.) If so, it would have made very good sense for the Feds to change Baker's 3rd/4th floor encounter with a heavy guy to a 2nd floor encounter with Oswald.Just to positively place him there NOT LONG after the shooting. In fact, the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter is essential to the WC official story! In my opinion. Even if there was no known evidence of Oswald being on the first floor during the shooting

Third, according to Shelley and Lovelady, it was three minutes after the shooting that Truly and Baker entered the TSBD. That testimony completely destroys the value of the 2nd floor encounter, even if it did actually take place.

It is my belief that the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter never took place. And that a 3rd or 4th floor encounter with a heavy guy did take place.

Now, if we accept my opinion for the sake of this thread, that would mean that the texts in the interrogations mentioning the 2nd floor encounter are fabrications. And what you've highlighted above is rendered moot.

As for the apparent attempt to remove the surname Shelley, I have no idea how to explain that. The name "Bill" is left in place as is the fact that he's the foreman. So the identification of Bill Shelley remained intact anyway.

Bottom Line: There is serious doubt as to whether the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter took place. And even if it did, it doesn't prove anything.

That said, there is actually a tempting advantage to believing that Baker is a scatterbrain and that he actually did meet Oswald on the 2nd floor. And that is, we can accept Truly's testimony as being factual, and we can believe that the encounter wasn't fabricated in Oswald's interrogations.

 

[David Josephs]

Sandy,  

I posted this not because of the repeating of the Baker story but of Bookout's telling of the Shelley part of the story.  Oswald eating lunch outside with Shelley happening well after the assassination and the supposed Baker encounter creates a timeline that allows Oswald and Shelley to be back out on the landing about 6-10 minutes after the shooting.

I am 100% convinced the Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never happened.  Just look at how the WC handles the Baker Affidavit in his testimony.

If their story is true then his affidavit is a lie.  I've made the point before that without the lunchroom added, the person coming down the stairs 1-2 flights higher up is much closer to the sniper's nest area as well as the rifle's resting place by these stairs on the 6th floor.  The description is even fairly close.

If this was Oswald, why change the story during testimony?  If this was not Oswald, who works at the TSBD fitting that description and was not out front?

I do not believe that Baker is scatterbrained and completely neglected to write his affidavit, the SAME DAY, telling the same story as his testimony would so many months later.
There must have been a reason to swap one story for the other and the ID of the person on the stairs is possibly our answer.

As for rendering moot the statement that he was out front with Shelley - what does the Baker encounter have to do with that? Your timeline fits better with Oswald meeting up with Shelley after he returns with Lovelady and goes out front (if that's what he did)

 

I don't want to derail the thread with Baker discussions when we are talking about Shelley and Lovelady.  
One must think though, did the whole thing hinge on Oswald staying inside for those 30 seconds or would there be contingency plans for all possibilities?

I for one believe in their contingency planning which is why there were so many "SS imposters" in DP... they were the clean-up crew to get photos and films.  I come to learn on a side note that Jaggers-Chile-Stovall was only blocks from DP and had photographic alteration equipment that no other companies in the area had...  if photos needed fixing quickly (Altgens 6 comes to mind) JCS could do it and quickly.  Food for thought...

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by David Josephs

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul, with all due respect, I ask you to post nothing more about a theory competing with the one I laid out in the original post.

I want the scope of this thread to be this:

1. Assume that Shelley and Lovelady's statements and testimonies are essentially correct.
2. If their testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, the others are to be considered incorrect.
3. The question to be answered in this thread is this: Is this scenario viable?

Here is what I mean by "viable:"

• Shelley and Lovelady do not contradict themselves or each other irreconcilably.
• Where Shelley and Lovelady's testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, can those contradictions be explained in a way that makes sense. For example, the contradiction with Truly/Baker came about because it was necessary to show Oswald to be on the 2nd floor, away from the first floor during the shooting.

As for the theory that you put forth here, Paul, I think it is one that should be explored. But not here.

BTW Paul, I have a competing scenario myself that probably fits in with yours. The impetus behind this thread's scenario is that both Shelley and Lovelady testified that it took about 3 minutes for Truly and Baker to enter the TSBD. The testimonies corroborate one another and therefore seem truthful and correct. However, another possible explanation for their testimonies matching one another is that they were coached to say 3 minutes (for some reason). The reason for considering this possibility is that it allows the Truly/Baker testimony to remain factual.

Perhaps this scenario can be discussed in a future thread. I chose to discuss this scenario put forth here first because it seems to have more support from other evidence,

Sandy,

OK, I can assume that Shelley-Lovelady are closer to the truth, for the sake of argument.

That, of course, automatically makes Truly-Baker into flat out fabricators.  There's no other conclusion, because their walkthrough of the events and the timing of the events is so precise.  If Shelley-Lovelady are correct, and it really was a minimum of 3 minutes before Officer Baker ran into the TSBD, and Roy Truly immediately ran in after him, then we must immediately ask why Truly-Baker deliberately omitted 2.5 minutes out of crucial US History.  Especially Baker.  It would be very grim.

So, I will say no more about Truly-Baker.  But I will ask again about Shelley-Lovelady.  You say that they do not "contradict each other irreconcilably."  Let's take another look at the WC testimony of Bill Shelley -- who is almost exactly echoed by Billy Lovelady.  Remember that they were standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the time of the JFK shots:

------ BEGIN EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM SHELLEY, SUPERVISOR OF LHO AT TSBD -------

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL - ....What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?     ...
Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street.
Mr. BALL - ...You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.  ...
Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes...
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.  ...
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.   ...
Mr. BALL - Were they running?
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around.
Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

------ END EXTRACT OF WC TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM SHELLEY, SUPERVISOR OF LHO AT TSBD -------

Now, I don't get the feeling that Bill Shelley is fabricating here.  But I do get the feeling that he's fairly sloppy with his answers, because when asked if Truly and Baker were running, his answer was, "That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around."  

What does the crowd have to do with it?  Actually, if he could recognize their faces and clothes, then he could certainly recognize if they were running or not.  So, we seem to be hitting a memory gap on the part of Bill Shelley. 

Now, if Shelley is not fabricating, then why does Shelley agree so closely with the time-frame of Billy Lovelady?  The answer, IMHO, is that the two men had MONTHS to talk to each other before they were finally interviewed by the WC.  They had no idea what any other witnesses would say.

BTW, it is interesting that both Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were convinced that all the shots came from the Grassy Knoll.  People were saying so, and people were running there, and even DPD cops were running there.  That's why Shelley-Lovelady ran there.  I have no major problem with their WC testimony.

But their TIMING sounds imprecise to me.  The TIMING was not a firm memory, IMHO, but a fairly sloppy memory. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited January 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

57 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Sandy,  

I posted this not because of the repeating of the Baker story but of Bookout's telling of the Shelley part of the story.  Oswald eating lunch outside with Shelley happening well after the assassination and the supposed Baker encounter creates a timeline that allows Oswald and Shelley to be back out on the landing about 6-10 minutes after the shooting.

I am 100% convinced the Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter never happened.  Just look at how the WC handles the Baker Affidavit in his testimony.

I'm also convinced that the 2nd floor encounter didn't happened. I (slightly) allowed the possibility of it happening in my last reply to you only because I am not an expert on it, and I cannot recall all the evidence and arguments against the encounter. I just know that when presented with all the evidence, I become convinced the encounter didn't take place.

If their story is true then his affidavit is a lie.  I've made the point before that without the lunchroom added, the person coming down the stairs 1-2 flights higher up is much closer to the sniper's nest area as well as the rifle's resting place by these stairs on the 6th floor.  The description is even fairly close.

If this was Oswald, why change the story during testimony?  If this was not Oswald, who works at the TSBD fitting that description and was not out front?

I do not believe that Baker is scatterbrained and completely neglected to write his affidavit, the SAME DAY, telling the same story as his testimony would so many months later.
There must have been a reason to swap one story for the other and the ID of the person on the stairs is possibly our answer.

As for rendering moot the statement that he was out front with Shelley - what does the Baker encounter have to do with that?

Baker's alleged 2nd floor encounter makes the "out front with Shelley" occur well after the shooting. That is what I was thinking when I said the highlighted part is rendered moot. But now I see what you mean. If you remove from the interrogation just the part about the 2nd floor encounter, then the timing of the stuff following that begins to make sense, including the "out front with Shelley" part.

So you are correct... what you highlighted is not rendered moot. It is in fact strengthened by the removal of the 2nd floor encounter. Just like the part about eating lunch on the first floor is strengthened. Because if the 2nd floor encounter is left in place, that means Oswald and the others ate lunch after the shooting, not before! Remove the 2nd floor encounter and the timing is fixed.

Pretty cool.

Your timeline fits better with Oswald meeting up with Shelley after he returns with Lovelady and goes out front (if that's what he did)

 

I don't want to derail the thread with Baker discussions when we are talking about Shelley and Lovelady.  
One must think though, did the whole thing hinge on Oswald staying inside for those 30 seconds or would there be contingency plans for all possibilities?

I for one believe in their contingency planning which is why there were so many "SS imposters" in DP... they were the clean-up crew to get photos and films.  

I come to learn on a side note that Jaggers-Chile-Stovall was only blocks from DP and had photographic alteration equipment that no other companies in the area had...  if photos needed fixing quickly (Altgens 6 comes to mind) JCS could do it and quickly.  Food for thought...

I also have suspicions that Altgens 6 was quickly altered a little bit. But that's another story.

 

If we accept the scenario of this thread (Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony being correct), then Oswald must have been standing on the TSBD entryway at least immediately following the shooting, and quite possibly before and during the shooting as well! That is, if Oswald told the truth when he said he was outside with Shelley.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

*Whilst I was typing the following post, there has been a few more posts posted above, so apologies if this now seems out of order, and indeed apologies if it mentions anything that has just been mentioned, and indeed apologies if it is going in the wrong direction from the above few posts. (It took me too long to type it. )

Anyroads,

In Shelley's testimony he stated that...

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Eddie Piper's testimony

Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?
Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?
Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.
Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down---I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.

The last part there of Piper's testimony is quite interesting, he makes the statement that he did not see Vicki Adams come down the steps and infers that it means she must have come down after Truly (and Baker) went up the stairs. But to all intents and purposes we know that Adams came down the steps before Truly and Baker went up them, ergo Piper is wrong on this point, and Adams must have come down the stairs before Piper had a chance to see it happening. It is possible that only a couple of seconds before Piper turned his attention to the stairs that Adams could have come down and moved in a direction that Piper, when turning towards the stairs wouldn't have seen her.

Then from looking at what Shelley said about seeing Piper when he came in via tha back door, he says that he saw Piper coming from where he was watching the motorcade - although no time is given here in reference to Shelley seeing Piper, the question that has to be asked is what does 'coming from' mean?

This all leads to some interesting questions in regards to the posited '7 minutes' after the shots that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered from the building at the back.

Let's assume that Piper is correct and Adams didn't come down until after Truly and Baker went up the stairs, then it must have been a long time after because neither Truly or Baker make mention of passing her on the stairs, yet Adams testimony states that she had made it down off the stairs and to the back door in the region of 90 seconds to 2 minutes - the logical conclusion then is that Adams made it down and away from the stairs without Piper seeing her, and before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs. This also gives something of a timeline for when Truly and Baker started up the stairs - at a time (slightly) after Adams had made it down, so +90seconds to +2minutes from the time of the shots.

None of that necessarily detracts from the thought that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the back of the building 7 minutes after the shots, but it would lead to the conclusion that when Shelley says he saw Piper 'coming from' where he saw the motorcade that would be 5 minutes (approx.) later than when Piper could have 'come from' where he was...

...The testimony of Adams is quite important to this too. In her testimony she states that she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the back door. Some claim that this was inserted in to her testimony to discredit her because her timings on coming down the stairs left no room for the 'official version' of Oswald having the time to get to the 2nd floor - she didn't see or hear him! If that was included to discredit her timing testimony, and it was indeed 7 minutes after the shots that Lovelady/Shelley got to the back of the building, then we have Adams coming down the stairs well after Baker and Truly went up the stairs, but that doesn't really make sense either considering what Adams has said about her timing and indeed what Sandra Styles has said (albeit not in testimony).

Again, the timing of Adams doesn't necessarily detract from the Shelley/Lovelady entering after 7 minutes idea (especially if the seeing them was indeed an addition to her testimony). And of course, none of the above necessarily means that Oswald wasn't out on the front steps (as some claim) and/or that the 2nd floor encounter never happened (as some claim).

However there is another point of view that could reconcile all of the above people's testimony; it's just that to do so would be to imply that the questioning of both Lovelady and (moreso) Shelley was so sloppy that the two of them weren't able to keep up with what was being asked and were getting confused.