David Josephs Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Q: As you saw it, what happened at the time the second shot went off in regard to President Kennedy? What did you see? A(Zapruder): I thought I just described what I saw. You mean where it hit him? Q: Yes. A: I saw the head practically open up and blood and many more things, whatever it was, brains, just came out of his head. -------------- Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration-- Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot. Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there? Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired?Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in. -------------- Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. -------------- Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left.Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate that is, the President's car? Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously. ---------------- I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether? Mr. HUDSON - Three. Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot? Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir. -------------------- In every survey done prior to the May 1964 charade for 1) Time/Life 11/26; The Secret Service for Warren Commission Doc 298 12/2,3,4; and for the FBI on 2/7/64 the three shots are outlined as shown in WCD298 with 210, 313 and circa z350 for the 3 shots. Witnesses closest to the shooting all state z313 is the second shot after which the limo accelerates away, just as Kellerman, Greer and Hill state. Greer actually watched until JFK's head explodes, then accelerates... Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to the rear? Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President. Yeah, not so much... Edited November 6, 2017 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Mileto Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Agreed. The third loud report was most likely just after the head shot, and the first was at 190-224. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) David Josephs The Z film frames you have posted clearly show Greer looking directly back at the limo passengers at the very moment of the head explosion of JFK and even a split second after. In other words ...during the entire head explosion scene. And in my observation opinion Greer's head was turned so far around toward JFK, that his Warren Commission testimony claim of not seeing JFK when he was hit in the head is factually false by the laws and logic of physical anatomical science. Greer's " I didn't see anything " statement raises serious questions about his motivations for stating something the film depicts as false. And no driver steps on the gas of a car when their head is turned almost 150 degrees backwards. They do so when they turn their head back to the front of the car. Edited February 7, 2017 by Joe Bauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 16 hours ago, Micah Mileto said: Agreed. The third loud report was most likely just after the head shot, and the first was at 190-224. In reality z313 was shot #4 or #5... 190 to JFK's throat from the front, 206/7 to JFK's back, 225 or so to Connally; possibly another shot to Connally yet I think the "flurry" at z313 might also have caught Connally. but at least 3 shots hitting their mark prior to z313. IF the WC had kept any of the first three surveys, the "SHOT THAT MISSED" would have been the third at z358 yet the report from the FBI stated 3 shots = 3 hits While I agree that during the z313 flurry sequence mutiple shots were fired,... another shot, 40 feet down Elm at either 4+96 or 5+04, just 15 feet from Altgens was recorded 3 successive times by the same man at street elevation 416.83. Shot #2 at 419.07. (419.07-416.83=2.24 vertical elevation change times the rise/run of 18.3:1 we get a distance of 41 feet; 40.992'). Considering the limo was now accelerating and speeding away at much more than 1 foot per frame, it is considerably less than 42 frames between shots and therefore impossible for the bolt action Carcano to fire at both z313 and 41 feet further down Elm. A man was seen by Rowland in the far WEST window which is a more likely place for a shot to be traveling SOUTH as opposed to WEST... it is also possible that this T-shirt wearing man in the west window is the man Mrs Reid sees on the 2nd floor. Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window. Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window. It was this pair of windows here at that time. Mr. SPECTER - All right. Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle? (Witness marking.) http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0488b.htm Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it. Furthermore, Altgens is corroborated by Brehm: BREHM expressed his opinion that between the first and third shots, the President's car only seemed to move 10 or 12 feet. It seemed to him that the automobile almost came to a halt after the first shot, but of this he is not certain. After the third shot, the car in which the President was riding increased its speed and went under the freeway overpass and out of his sight. The slowing and virtual stopping of the limo, along with the evidence of the limo's very wide turn onto Elm which is represented by POSITION A. If the limo does not make that turn, there would be no reason for Shaneyfelt to have positioned the car at that spot in the first place. What we will see is how position A is the beginning of a limo path which is slightly south and slightly west of the actual limo path derived by Surveyor Robert West. As Doug Horne points out in his IARRB, Life's Paul Mandel wrote that the shot at z190 enters JFK's throat due to his turning around to completely face the TSBD. We know this is a falsehood provided him by someone at LIFE since he either 1) sees the film and lies about it, or 2) does not see the film and is told what to write. It is not until Melvin Eisenberg and the viewing of the Zfilm in March 1964 to determine the exact frames on which shots hit their target that the problem of the agreed upon Z190 first shot. The problem presented by the Zfilm is that there is no place to put a 3rd shot prior to z210 (the tree blocks all shots from Shaneyfelt's POS A until z210) unless it is the throat shot at z190 or a shot that many believe occurs at z156 just as the limo finishes its turn http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm is the WCR section titled "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" from which it must be determined if John Connally is mistaken about his NOT being hit by the first sound of a rifle. Since there are both holes in the front of his throat and one at approx T3 on his back, it is my feeling that JFK is hit in the throat from the front between z190-z200 and is hit in the back at z207 which is the reaction of his we see as he emerges from the sign. It is obviously just after this - between z224 and z238 - that John is hit by his own shot. IOW, by the time JC is hit, at least 3 shots have been fired and hit their target. Nothing then happens until 302/3/4 when we have the unnatural Greer headspin and a conclusion that in frame 303, the limo is not moving. https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsFBIZ313.pdf is a paper I did related to WCD298 which asks the question: Was a shot 4 feet from station 5+00 created to account for 3 shells or was there actually a shot down by Altgens and Hudson at the foot of the stairs? And what about Tague? A shot has to miss terribly for it to hit the curb, leave no copper, and nick Tague. While the WC chooses to claim that "no copper" indicates a fragment from within one of the copper jacketed bullets I was standing on top of the train trestle where it crosses Elm Street with Austin Miller. We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks. I saw something hit the pavement at the left rear of the car, then the car got in the right hand lane and I heard two more shots. I heard a woman sa "Oh no" or something and grab a man inside the car. I then heard another shot and saw the bullet hit the pavement. the concrete was knocked to the south away from the car. It hit the pavement in the left or middle lane. I then went down to my car radio to see if I could find out what happened. After I came back up, a policeman asked me if I had seen anything and brought me to the Sheriff's Office. /s/ R G Skelton This helps confirm what I had been saying about a shot at the top of Elm where we see SA Hickey lean over and look at the street to the left of the limo just as little Rosemary is stopping her running... yet it also corroborates a shot that missed after z313... what has confused me is why another shot is fired after z313. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 1. Shot No. 1 ... from Del Tex hit Kennedy in the back. Frame Z-158 2. Shot No. 2 ... from the grassy knoll hit Kennedy in the throat. Frame Z-193 3. Shot No. 3 ... from the TSBD hit Connally in the back. Frame Z-224? 4. Shot No. 4 ... from the TSBD hit the pavement on the right side of the limo and ricochetted to chip a piece of concrete that hit Tague on his cheek Frame Z-290 5. Shot No. 5 ... from the grassy knoll hit Kennedy in the head Frame Z- 313 6. Shot No. 6 ... from the TSBD passed over the limo and lodged in the grass on the south side of Elm Z- 332 There were six shots and four shooters, one in the Del Tex Bldg, one in the TSBD, and two on the grassy knoll. I think the plan was to immobilize Kennedy so that he would not be able to duck down into the limo and hide from the grassy knoll shooter who fired the kill shot. The shooter in the TSBD was a diversion, the patsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 David The shot after the the head shot had to be taken because the shooter in the TSBD had to take three shots. Up until the head shot he had taken only two shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Three shells found in the TSBD means three shots. The story told would be ... one shot hit Kennedy in the back, one hit Connally in the back and one hit Kennedy in the head. They had to invent the SBT when Tague came forward with his story about being hit with a piece of concrete chipped off the curb be a shot. The shot that missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) Hey there George... gonna have to disagree with some of your post... Regarding the shot that missed and the WCR passage, it still does not say which of the three allowed shots missed and hit the curb by Tague.... Quote 1. Shot No. 1 ... from Del Tex hit Kennedy in the back. Frame Z-158 2. Shot No. 2 ... from the grassy knoll hit Kennedy in the throat. Frame Z-193 3. Shot No. 3 ... from the TSBD hit Connally in the back. Frame Z-224? 4. Shot No. 4 ... from the TSBD hit the pavement on the right side of the limo and ricochetted to chip a piece of concrete that hit Tague on his cheek Frame Z-290 5. Shot No. 5 ... from the grassy knoll hit Kennedy in the head Frame Z- 313 6. Shot No. 6 ... from the TSBD passed over the limo and lodged in the grass on the south side of Elm Z- 332 Please explain how JFK continues on without showing the slightest indication he was hit in the throat at this point. Witnesses describe a puff of concrete to the left of the limo as Hickey is looking down. If you can,please provide substantiation for this shot. Agreed The way JFK reacts after 224 I see his getting hit in the back while behind the sign. I also think shots were fired simultaneously based on there being radio contact between the shooters. Between 207 and 225 there are at least 2 shots fired making one shooter impossible, again. JC is hit, imo just as he emerges from the sign agreed that Tague is nicked and a shot hitting that curb causes it... but this shot is terribly high and wide of the mark... your explanation is plausible for sure as I review the line of sight for that shot Agreed - with a real possibility another shot is fired at this time hitting Connally the manhole cover shot that mystery man scoops up was more in line with county records where a Det Weatherford, an accomplished shooter with a scoped rifle was stationed with an unnamed deputy. Cover-Up by Gary Shaw, undated interview of Roger Craig by Shaw and Penn Jones (pg.144) A man with a gun is known to have been on the roof of County Records Building during the assassination. According to Roger Craig, Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford was at this location with a rifle equipped with a telescopic sight… Deputy Sheriff Pat Boyd told Craig that two weeks prior to the shooting of Kennedy and Connally, he (Boyd) had built a silencer for a .30 caliber carbine owned by Weatherford. Interview by Gary Shaw and Larry Harris of an unknown researcher, November of 1975 (pg.144) In 1969 a young assassination researcher interviewed Weatherford, and was taken by the man’s savage demeanor. He asked him point-blank if he had shot Connally or Kennedy. Weatherford snapped, “You little son of a b----, I shoot a lot of people.” =====Letter 2 July 18, 1991 emailQuestion: Was Harry Weatherford on the roof a building AT THE TIME of the JFK assassination? Which building was it, and who was Wheatherford with at the time? Who asked him to go up there?Did Weatherford tell you this himself? If not, who told you?BOWLES: Harry Weatherford was on the roof of the county records building with another officer whose name escapes me. He was assigned there by Decker, and this information was from Weatherford. You may relate this if you keep it straight. Edited April 12, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 David I guess No. 1 refers to the first shot. However you mention Kennedy being shot in the throat. The first shot hit Kennedy in the back at Z-158. Kennedy was shot in the throat at Z-193. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Mileto Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 15 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said: David I guess No. 1 refers to the first shot. However you mention Kennedy being shot in the throat. The first shot hit Kennedy in the back at Z-158. Kennedy was shot in the throat at Z-193. He smiled and waved after being hit in the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Micah I´m glad you mentioned him smiling after being hit in the back. I´m going to use that to prove my point. Some people say they heard a backfire. Some people say they heard a firecracker. Some say a gunshot. Anyway there was heard a loud noise. Those in the parade near the limo look to their left as if looking for the origen of the loud noise. Yet Kennedy continues to wave and smile. He doesn´t even flinch. Something is not right. What do you think Micah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Mileto Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, George Sawtelle said: Micah I´m glad you mentioned him smiling after being hit in the back. I´m going to use that to prove my point. Some people say they heard a backfire. Some people say they heard a firecracker. Some say a gunshot. Anyway there was heard a loud noise. Those in the parade near the limo look to their left as if looking for the origen of the loud noise. Yet Kennedy continues to wave and smile. He doesn´t even flinch. Something is not right. What do you think Micah? There was probably no loud shot before z190-224. The last two loud shots were probably close together around z313. The only plausible evidence for a shot before z190 is Connally's quick head turn, but compared to all of the other evidence that can be dismissed. Check out the statements of Dealey Plaza photographers Robert Croft, Hugh Betzner, and Phillip Willis and how they describe the shooting sequence in relation to the photos they snapped. They all orient the first loud shot at around z190. No Dealey Plaza witness ever said they saw Kennedy smiling and waving after the first loud shot. Am I correct in thinking that the first shot froma just-assembled rifle like the MC would not be accurate at all if aiming with the scope? If so, that has huge implications. That's the basis of Edward Bauer's book The Final Truth, which has Oswald intentionally missing to zero-in his rifle on the first shot around the time of the Tina Towner splice. Edited February 8, 2017 by Micah Mileto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Micah Wishing it didn´t happen is not going to make it go away. "Probably" is not good enough. I mean no disrespect but you need to do a little more research. I think you are a novice to the JFK debate. As the limo turned onto Elm from Houston the limo was not visible to the sniper on the sixth floor of the TSBD. There were oak trees between the limo and the sniper.The limo didn´t become visible to the sniper until Z-frame 210 according to a FBI report. So the first two shots could not have come from the TSBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 David The first shot was loud enough to startle Zapruder, whose caused the camera to jiggle at Z-Frame 158. The shooter must have been close to the parade as people in the parade looked quickly to their left. That is why I don´t believe the sniper was up high on the roof of any building in Dealey Plaza. Forget about anyone firing from a manhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) On 2/7/2017 at 5:43 PM, George Sawtelle said: Micah I´m glad you mentioned him smiling after being hit in the back. I´m going to use that to prove my point. Some people say they heard a backfire. Some people say they heard a firecracker. Some say a gunshot. Anyway there was heard a loud noise. Those in the parade near the limo look to their left as if looking for the origen of the loud noise. Yet Kennedy continues to wave and smile. He doesn´t even flinch. Something is not right. What do you think Micah? George - you'd think the "He doesn't even flinch" line you posted would prove to you that he was not hit with that shot, especially in the neck. But let's take a different approach for your throat shot... Compare the throat wound evidence with JFK fully dressed. Mr. SPECTER - What did you note, if anything, with respect to the tie, Mr. Frazier? Mr. FRAZIER - When the tie was examined by me in the laboratory I noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. However, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. The only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. As you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. This nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button. Mr. SPECTER - Is the nick consistent with an exiting path? Mr. FRAZIER - Oh, yes. The nick exposes the white inner lining of the tie... obviously Frasier wants to insure that SBT is not challenged by his conclusions related to this tie. Yet if the bullet is coming from behind the tie, one wonders how it only nicks the front... The point here being there is much more to this "first shot" than your conclusion for which there is no evidence... then again George, what can you offer us to support your conclusion as opposed to the evidence which shows this shot missed and was fired from behind.. Edited April 27, 2017 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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