Did Billy Lovelady remain on the TSBD steps after Officer Baker's arrival?

[Sandy Larsen]

Many researchers believe that Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady can be seen walking down Elm Street extension together in the Darnell video. The possibility of that being the case is supported by the fact that Shelley and Lovelady both testified to walking down the extension after the shooting.

The problem with that, however, is that Shelley and Lovelady also both testified that they began walking down the extension about 3 minutes after the shooting took place. This contradicts the Darnell film, which shows that the two began walking down the extension roughly 10 seconds after the shooting.

Lovelady cannot be both on the steps for 3 minutes and walking down the extension at the same time. So which is the case?

Here's a frame from the Darnell film showing the two men walking down the extension:

Recently discovered evidence seems to contradict the idea that these two men are Shelley and Lovelady. The following clip is from the same film, and occurs at around the same time as the above frame:

 

In this video a guy can be seen on the far left of the stairway, in front of Prayer Man and near the top of the steps. It looks like at first he is a step or two down from the top landing, but rises by one step just before the end of the clip. He is not far from where Lovelady was last seen on the steps. Could he be Lovelady?

I have extracted a frame in which you can barely make out this guy's eyes, mouth, left ear, and receding hairline. Here it is:

 

I also found in the film frames where the guy turns his head to his right. I put one of those frames in an animated GIF so that it can be easily seen that he's turning his head:

 

 

This GIF has him alternating between facing forward and facing right.

Note that when he turns his head to his right, you can see his left ear, now on the side of his head instead of poking out. You can also see his hair above his ear and receding hairline when he's facing right.

I believe this man is Billy Lovelady.

In a couple of frames from the video, alleged Lovelady moves enough to our right -- relative to the woman in front of him -- that the middle portion of his chest can be seen. A white area is visible in those frames. (See this post for more details.) This may very well be Lovelady's white tee shirt. (Lovelady had his plaid shirt unbuttoned shortly before this Darnell clip, revealing his white tee shirt.)

Here is the clearer of the two frames:

 

Here is a related clip made by Robin Unger:

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

[Reserved]

[Michael Walton]

Yes - I like this Sandy.  I really, truly want to know if that's LHO standing up there and I'd love it if someone could sneak into the TV station and squirrel away the raw film of that footage.  I think it's interesting that they refuse to release it.  My thoughts on that are - if the raw film confirms it's Elmer or some other factory worker and not LHO, then why hide it? So in my mind, the raw film may very well reveal it's LO up there in the shadows.

But I am really thinking that GIF shows it's Bill L up there on the steps in front of LO/PM.

I think, too, we have to remember.  No one - not a single person - there that day was thinking, "OK wait...here he comes. Now look... who's that up there...don't forget to count the bangs and smell the smoke."

This happened so very, very quickly and the reason why I mention this, and I think it's important to keep in mind, is the memory does play tricks on us.  I'm not saying every single witness there got it wrong; but to actually ask these blue-collar folks to remember how many steps they took to the right, how many steps the cop took, where they were standing down to the inch when a woman came up crying, how far she was from them when she came up, and on and on and on...well, there's going to be fairly inaccurate answers.

I kind of relate it to the phenomena of when we were kids and look back on the houses we lived in we thought they were so large.  Then, 30 years later, we go back to them and think WTF - that "large" house shrunk a lot. 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Yes - I like this Sandy.  I really, truly want to know if that's LHO standing up there and I'd love it if someone could sneak into the TV station and squirrel away the raw film of that footage.  I think it's interesting that they refuse to release it.  My thoughts on that are - if the raw film confirms it's Elmer or some other factory worker and not LHO, then why hide it? So in my mind, the raw film may very well reveal it's LO up there in the shadows.

But I am really thinking that GIF shows it's Bill L up there on the steps in front of LO/PM.

I think, too, we have to remember.  No one - not a single person - there that day was thinking, "OK wait...here he comes. Now look... who's that up there...don't forget to count the bangs and smell the smoke."

This happened so very, very quickly and the reason why I mention this, and I think it's important to keep in mind, is the memory does play tricks on us.  I'm not saying every single witness there got it wrong; but to actually ask these blue-collar folks to remember how many steps they took to the right, how many steps the cop took, where they were standing down to the inch when a woman came up crying, how far she was from them when she came up, and on and on and on...well, there's going to be fairly inaccurate answers.

I kind of relate it to the phenomena of when we were kids and look back on the houses we lived in we thought they were so large.  Then, 30 years later, we go back to them and think WTF - that "large" house shrunk a lot. 

Dear Michael,

Maybe you just don't "get" it.

Sandy's not talking about Prayer Person here.

He's talking about someone on the steps below Prayer Person.

All the best,

--  Tommy

 

 

[Michael Walton]

Tom, I get it.  I was making a point of PM and how witness statements can not always be reliable.

But I get it when I said:

But I am really thinking that GIF shows it's Bill L up there on the steps in front of LO/PM.

Thanks.

[Alistair Briggs]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Recently discovered evidence seems to contradict...

I'm just curious when you say 'recently', how recently do you mean?

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I'm just curious when you say 'recently', how recently do you mean?

First I heard of it was a month or two ago.

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

First I heard of it was a month or two ago.

Probably about the same time that I first heard of it too.

EDIT: For clarity - I mean I hadn't heard of it until more recently than you have...

Edited February 11, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

First I heard of it was a month or two ago.

 

FWIW, Bob Prudhomme and I were arguing about this subject about a year ago on this forum  He said the person directly below Prayer Person's right elbow (the arm next to the wall) was Lovelady, rising from a crouching position (while talking to someone in front of him?).  I said it wasn't Lovelady, but a woman wearing a light-colored head scarf walking slowly up the steps.

At the very very very very end of this GIF (below), we can see the light-colored face / head of the person in question rise above the plane of Prayer Person's forearm, so I can't understand why Bill Miller, on the "PP - PM or PW?" thread, says the person there is not "rising" (getting up from a crouching position or walking up the steps).

I'd hate to think that Bill has been literally blinded by cognitive dissonance (lol).

--  Tommy

Edited February 11, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

....I can't understand why Bill Miller, on the "PP - PM or PW?" thread, says the person there is not "rising" (getting up from a crouching position or walking up the steps).

Somehow Bill got the impression that I'd claimed that the man was rising from a sitting position. Something which he refuted. When I pointed out to him I'd never made that claim, he apologized and said it was you who had made the claim I didn't think you had, but chose not to argue with him on the point. I figured you would if you wanted to.

Anyway, thanks for pointing out the details of the discovery. I think it was Robert Prudhomme who brought this guy to my attention... this year. I probably saw you guys discussing this, but at the time didn't get the significance of the guy being Lovelady... if indeed his is Lovelady.

[Alistair Briggs]

16 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

FWIW, Bob Prudhomme and I were arguing about this subject about a year ago on this forum  He said the person directly below Prayer Person's right elbow (the arm next to the wall) was Lovelady, rising from a crouching position (while talking to someone in front of him?).  I said it wasn't Lovelady, but a woman wearing a light-colored head scarf walking slowly up the steps.

FWIW as early as 2013 it was being discussed here.

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

FWIW, Bob Prudhomme and I were arguing about this subject about a year ago on this forum  He said the person directly below Prayer Person's right elbow (the arm next to the wall) was Lovelady, rising from a crouching position (while talking to someone in front of him?).  I said it wasn't Lovelady, but a woman wearing a light-colored head scarf walking slowly up the steps.

At the very very end of this GIF (below), we can see the light-colored face / head of the person in question rise above the plane of Prayer Person's forearm, so I can't understand why Bill Miller says the person there is not "rising" (getting up from a crouching position or walking up the steps).

I'd hate to think that Bill has been literally blinded by cognitive dissonance (lol).

 

Bumped in the hope that Miller will see it here and comment on it.

--  Tommy

Edited February 12, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Here is a clip made by Robin Unger. On this one you can actually make out the man's eyes and other features.

(Note: This is not an endorsement from Robin Unger that the man seen here is Lovelady.)

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Ray Mitcham]

If it isn't Lovelady who could it be?

[David Josephs]

Sure seems like Lovelady