Did Billy Lovelady remain on the TSBD steps after Officer Baker's arrival?

[Bill Miller]

On 2/15/2017 at 7:05 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Here is a clip made by Robin Unger. On this one you can actually make out Lovelady's eyes and other features.

 

 

Sandy,

I can appreciate you wanting that person to be Lovelady, but when you make comments about how this clip allows you to make out Billy L's eyes and other features, then you do a disservice to yourself because what you are saying this clip offers in details is just not there. That person can be wearing a sport coat for all anyone can see. 

You may recall that I didn't buy Kamp's view at first that Lovelady was walking on the Elm Street extension. But better images offered a view of the plaid design of the shirt Lovelady had been wearing. The man he was walking with had the same wavy hair immediately above the forehead that Shelley had. Buell Frazier has said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps together which also supports Kamp's claim of the Darnell film showing those two men on the Elm Street extension when Patrolman Baker made his run to the TSBD. The person you believe that looks close enough to be Lovelady doesn't seem to be with Shelley, unlike the Lovelady looking fellow seen walking on the extension street.

I do however understand why you would think it could be Lovelady. It's just that the fuzzy image alone isn't worth much in my view.

[Bill Miller]

On 2/11/2017 at 4:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I also found in the film frames where the guy turns his head to his right. I put one of those frames in an animated GIF so that it can be easily seen that he's turning his head:

 

I cannot say the man is turning his head.  This person's head and shoulders seem to morph and get taller on the Dal-Tex side of him. At the same time the woman's head in the light colored scarf seems to  morph the same way. The lady in the dark head scarf seems to have her head morph as well. So my point is that it is not for certain that these head movements are not what you believe them to be.

[Bill Miller]

17 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Sure seems like Lovelady

There is a number or people this person could be. Just the other day someone wondered if a guy that was standing in front of the building seen briefly in one of the films could have been Oswald .... someone could just as easy say it is that guy from the film.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

 

Sandy,

I can appreciate you wanting that person to be Lovelady....

 

Bill,

I don't want the man to be Billy Lovelady. I just believe that the man is him.
 

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

....but when you make comments about how this clip allows you to make out Billy L's eyes and other features, then you do a disservice to yourself because what you are saying this clip offers in details is just not there.

I didn't mean to say that the eyes I make out are those of Billy Lovelady's. I meant only that I can make out that the guy has eyes.

This is important because it had been suggested that what we are looking at is the back of a woman headscarf.

In my original post where I presented zoomed in photos, I was disappointed because the software I used "softened" the pixels, resulting in the loss of the facial features (eyes). Later I saw Robin Unger's video and noticed that the eyes could be made out on it.
 

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

That person can be wearing a sport coat for all anyone can see. 

You may recall that I didn't buy Kamp's view at first that Lovelady was walking on the Elm Street extension. But better images offered a view of the plaid design of the shirt Lovelady had been wearing. The man he was walking with had the same wavy hair immediately above the forehead that Shelley had. Buell Frazier has said that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps together which also supports Kamp's claim of the Darnell film showing those two men on the Elm Street extension when Patrolman Baker made his run to the TSBD. The person you believe that looks close enough to be Lovelady doesn't seem to be with Shelley, unlike the Lovelady looking fellow seen walking on the extension street.

I do however understand why you would think it could be Lovelady. It's just that the fuzzy image alone isn't worth much in my view.

So you believe that Lovelady left the steps in that 30-second interval between Weigman and Darnell, and was replaced by yet another person who resembles Lovelady, Oswald, and the guy on the sixth floor wearing a white tee shirt.

That's a lot of Oswald-lookalikes. But what I have a hard time believing is that another guy with a receding hairline just happened to walk onto the steps just as Lovelady left. Within that 30 second window. That's a very unlikely thing to happen IMO.

[David Josephs]

Hey there Bill...

While it may be someone else, it may also actually be Lovelady.   The image is too soft to tell, yet that bent left arm, which appears the same in the other images, the shiny high forehead, his position at the entrance...  

There has been a fairly strong effort to ID everyone on those stairs in a search for who that person behind this Lovelady-like image was.

Who else might it be?  or even possibly be?   

Mr. BALL - When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also. 

Mr. BALL - And Mr. Shelley was still standing there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And also Billy Lovelady? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL - The three of you didn't go any place? 
Mr. FRAZIER - I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all. 

I just don't see how he can be on the steps in this film and have come in the back door after having gone to the RR yard...  We see Baker run by the 2 walking men we just don't seem to have a clear idea of timing for all this.  Shelley corroborates the walking off to the RR yard...  who else might that be?

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. 
Mr. BALL - Then what did you do? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building. 
Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear? 
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did. 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

On 2/11/2017 at 3:23 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I also found in the film frames where the guy turns his head to his right. I put one of those frames in an animated GIF so that it can be easily seen that he's turning his head:

 

I cannot say the man is turning his head.  This person's head and shoulders seem to morph and get taller on the Dal-Tex side of him. At the same time the woman's head in the light colored scarf seems to  morph the same way. The lady in the dark head scarf seems to have her head morph as well.

That morphing is largely due to motion blur, IMO. That is to say, motion captured on film during the time the shutter is open. Like this:

The only heads I see turning are Lovelady's and Frazier's... the latter to a lesser extent.
 

1 hour ago, Bill Miller said:

So my point is that it is not for certain that these head movements are not what you believe them to be.

 

[Bill Miller]

On 2/16/2017 at 11:41 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

So you believe that Lovelady left the steps in that 30-second interval between Weigman and Darnell, and was replaced by yet another person who resembles Lovelady, Oswald, and the guy on the sixth floor wearing a white tee shirt.

That's a lot of Oswald-lookalikes. But what I have a hard time believing is that another guy with a receding hairline just happened to walk onto the steps just as Lovelady left. Within that 30 second window. That's a very unlikely thing to happen IMO.

I believe the film evidence, Lovelady and Shelley's statements, and other eye witnesses support that this was the case. Lovelady said he had walked just about 25 steps when he hear a noise and looked back to see Truly and Patrolman Baker starting to g through the entrance of the building. I know there was a couple of workers who were inside the building who saw Truly and Patrolman Baker being the first people to enter the building.

As far as look-a-likes go .... when dealing with such poor images such as the one's you are talking about - a lot of people will look alike of you want them to.

[Bill Miller]

On 2/16/2017 at 11:55 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

That morphing is largely due to motion blur, IMO. That is to say, motion captured on film during the time the shutter is open. Like this:

The only heads I see turning are Lovelady's and Frazier's... the latter to a lesser extent.
 

Your illustration is far more extreme - subjects filmed at high speed and different shutter speeds.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

On 2/16/2017 at 10:41 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

So you believe that Lovelady left the steps in that 30-second interval between Weigman and Darnell, and was replaced by yet another person who resembles Lovelady, Oswald, and the guy on the sixth floor wearing a white tee shirt.

That's a lot of Oswald-lookalikes. But what I have a hard time believing is that another guy with a receding hairline just happened to walk onto the steps just as Lovelady left. Within that 30 second window. That's a very unlikely thing to happen IMO.

I believe the film evidence, ....

You cherry pick the "walking Lovelady" over the "standing-on-the-steps Lovelady," both of whom are in the film.

I cherry pick the other.

I believe the Lovelady and Shelley's statements, ....

Their statements say nothing about walking down Elm Street extension within seconds of the shooting. Which is what the two guys in the Darnell video do.

Shelley's and Lovelady's first day statements say nothing at all about walking down the extension. In Lovelady's March 1964 statement he says that they stayed in the area where Kennedy's limo had stopped for 5 minutes before returning to the TSBD's side door. That contradicts the video.

And you ignore their WC testimonies, which state that they didn't leave the steps for 3 minutes. Which also contradicts the video.

I believe the other eye witnesses support that this was the case.

What other eyewitness support?

Lovelady said he had walked just about 25 steps when he hear a noise and looked back to see Truly and Patrolman Baker starting to g through the entrance of the building.

Oh, so you believe that part of Lovelady's WC testimony. Even though we don't see it in the video.

I know there was a couple of workers who were inside the building who saw Truly and Patrolman Baker being the first people to enter the building.

As far as look-a-likes go .... when dealing with such poor images such as the one's you are talking about - a lot of people will look alike of you want them to.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

On 2/16/2017 at 10:55 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

That morphing is largely due to motion blur, IMO. That is to say, motion captured on film during the time the shutter is open. Like this:

The only heads I see turning are Lovelady's and Frazier's... the latter to a lesser extent.
 

Your illustration is far more extreme - subjects filmed at high speed and different shutter speeds.

For illustration purposes.

[Sandy Larsen]

I have updated my presentation with the higher-quality frames, zoomed in and cropped.

You can barely make out Lovelady Man's eyes, mouth, left ear, and receding hairline in this frame:

 

 

This animated gif shows him turning his head right. When he does so, you can see his hair around his ear. If you watch closely you can see his hair moving around with his head as he turns it.

 

My thanks to Robin Unger and Chris Davidson for the fine work they do on photos, like the ones here.

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/22/2017 at 5:05 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

I have updated my presentation with the higher-quality frames, zoomed in and cropped.

You can barely make out Lovelady Man's eyes, mouth, left ear, and receding hairline in this frame: [emphasis added by T. Graves]

 

 

This animated gif shows him turning his head right. When he does so, you can see his hair around his ear. If you watch closely you can see his hair moving around with his head as he turns it.

 

My thanks to Robin Unger and Chris Davidson for the fine work they do on photos, like the ones here.

 

 

Sandy,

Excellent post.

The figure's bald forehead and distinctive hairline is critical in identifying him as Billy Nolan Lovelady.

At times we even catch a glimpse of his white t-shirt directly above Woman-In-Black's head.

--  Tommy

Edited February 25, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

12 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Excellent post.

The distinctive hairline is obviously very important in identifying this figure as Billy Nolan Lovelady.

And at times we catch a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt directly above Woman-In-Black's head.

--  Tommy

bumped

[Sandy Larsen]

On 2/22/2017 at 9:29 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Excellent post.

The distinctive hairline is obviously very important in identifying this figure as Billy Nolan Lovelady.

And at times we catch a glimpse of Lovelady's white t-shirt directly above Woman-In-Black's head.

--  Tommy

Thanks Tommy. I'm glad somebody appreciates these new images.

Of course, all I did was crop and enlarge them, and make the "turning head" animated gif. Robin and/or Chris provided the improved images.

Considering that these frames were filmed just 30 seconds after Altgens 6, which shows Lovelady standing in the same area -- the very area he'd been standing in from the beginning of the filming, when the procession had just turned the corner onto Houston -- I think it's very likely that this man is Lovelady.

The only "mysterious" thing is that Shelley seems not to be there. But hey, Lovelady and Shelley weren't joined at the hips. Obviously the employees on the steps moved around right after hearing the shots. Shelley could have stepped inside for a moment, or could have crossed the street for a moment to get a better view of what was going on.

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

In a couple of frames from the video, alleged Lovelady moves enough to our right -- relative to the woman in front of him -- that the middle portion of his chest can be seen. A white area is visible in those frames. This may very well be Lovelady's white tee shirt.

Here is the clearer of the two frames: