Marina, the Commission, and Mexico City

[Dan Doyle]

If there's one person still alive who could really move the JFK assassination forward it is Marina Oswald Porter.  She is still very much alive, in mid 70's and easily located.  ( btw Ruth Paine is still alive, living in Santa Rosa, Ca. last I heard, but getting up there in years and not cooperative).  I continue to wonder why in a thread like this, contributors continue to parse Marina's 50+ year old testimony when she is still physically able to comment/testify.  It would seem that some intrepid JFK investigator/researcher could find a way to get her to talk (or maybe she would voluntarily?);  worst case scenario..... initiate a lawsuit( a la Jim Garrison) and subpoena her.  Whatever the case, Marina is still around and knows way more about LHO than any of us.

The eyeopener for me about  Tex-Italia Films giving Marina a $132,000 contract in Feb 1964 is that this is precisely when( the same month) Marina is testifying before the WC for the first time......and after 6 weeks in "protective(read coaching) custody" ......quite  a coincidence I would say.....no to mention the fact that Tex-Italia then disappears, better yet, vanishes into the untraceable ether.  And none of the esteemed Warren Commissioners, nor any other official, seems to raise an eyebrow about such happenings.

 then there's the connection to Collins Radio by way of the Tippit murder which is where Marina's current husband, Kenneth Porter, was employed at the time of the assassination.

And what about John Armstrong's hypothesis on the existence of a Harvey and a Lee.  This could be tested by a DNA sample from Robert Oswald matched against a sample from June or Rachel, Marina's daughters with LHO.

for what it's worth, my $.02

 

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Didn't Jim D. point out that the alleged physical abuse has been discredited?

Sandy,

Jim D. is incorrect to allege that Marina's physical abuse has been discredited.  We have sworn testimony from no less than seven WC witnesses to bruises on her face.

Again -- it's mainly the CIA-did-it CTers who need to make Marina into a fabricator -- no matter what -- because otherwise their CIA-did-it CT falls into the dirt.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

16 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

In a previous post I suggested that Marina Oswald took Ruth Paine's offer to stay with her out of desperation more than any other reason.

I don't think Marina Oswald liked Ruth Paine. But, just a couple of months away from having her second baby and with no offers from anyone else on that level, she took it.

I suggested this as a main reason for her doing so, considering the chaotic moving and stressful life with Lee Oswald.

Ruth Paine was financially stable and was another fairly young mother with young children, so this must have been a better situation for Marina than being on her own and worrying about rent and not enough food at times, and/or living with others who were older and didn't have children.

But I didn't mean to suggest what Marina Oswald was all about in her entire life up until late 1963.

I am not well informed enough to speculate on the broader aspects of Marina.

I just read George Bouhe's WC testimony.

There are so many interesting and even intriguing things mentioned about Marina and Lee in his testimony.

I wasn't aware of how many times Marina needed real help as far back as 1962 and how many times others provided her with this help.

She seemed so miserable back then ( with physical abuse to boot ) and her life up until 11,22,1963 seemed like it was constantly in upheaval.

Just reading about it all in the white Russian community testimony is exhausting and sad.

Bouhe mentioned in his testimony that he was amazed Marina didn't break emotionally during all that time and after 11,22,1963.

He was amazed at her strength to endure through all that.

Bouhe was also amazed at Marina's command of very proper Russian. The kind of Russian educated women spoke.

And later Bouhe even began to suspect that Marina may have been an agent for Russia in some capacity. Bouhe's suspicion in this area shocked me. Throughout 95% of his Marina recollections, he was always very sympathetic to her and her rough life in 1962 and 1963.

Jim Di...did Marina get to keep that $132,000 from that shell company?

Wonder what Marina's thoughts and feelings were upon coming into what to her must have seemed like a lot of financial wealth.

Joe,

I'm impressed that you've started reading the Russian Expatriate community WC testimony.  There's almost two dozen of them.  They confirm what Marina Oswald testifies.

Don't be surprised when the CIA-did-it CTers also claim that they were all lying. 

Why would they lie?  The CIA-did-it CTers will claim either that; (1) the CIA paid them off; or (2) the USSR paid them off.  Such nonsense is common with the CIA-did-it CTers. 

Your current studies in the WC testimonies will illuminate everything.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Could Marina have been sugar coating their real financial situation a bit to perhaps save herself the embarrassment of stating in public that she and Lee were actually very poor and so often dependent on others?  Living frugally to Marina would to most Americans mean at the bottom of the income classes.

...And again I ask, did Marina get to keep that $132,000?

Regards such, I believe it's not unreasonable to consider the possibility that Marina made a deal for that massive payout to say what someone wanted her to say regards Lee. It would be very hard for a woman who came from such a poor childhood to turn down what would be a million dollars today.

Joe,

Bear in mind we are speaking of two periods; (1) the period before the JFK murder, in which Marina was dirt poor; and (2) the period after the JFK murder, in which Marina was financially well-off.

The WC asked Marina about the period before the JFK murder, and so she was obliged to recall the poor times.  

As for the $132,000, you would do well to read the WC testimony of Robert Oswald and James Herbert Martin, her business managers.  Also, they hired a lawyer to "manage" Marina's money.  Taking out all their "cuts" as well as taxes, we might imagine what Marina had left.   Still, the US Government did not interfere with these donations from big-hearted Americans.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

...It was not me who discredited that WR testimony about Oswald being an abuser.  That was Robert Charles Dunne who is not here today.  He went through it all in detail and showed that it was in reality single sourced.  It was a real tour de force...

James,

I responded to Robert Charles Dunne on this Forum years ago -- point by point -- to show that he was mistaken in all his claims.

That entire thread was deleted, however.  Try as I might I could not recover those weeks of work.

I suppose I'll have to start again from scratch. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Dan Doyle said:

If there's one person still alive who could really move the JFK assassination forward it is Marina Oswald Porter.  She is still very much alive, in mid 70's and easily located.  ( btw Ruth Paine is still alive, living in Santa Rosa, Ca. last I heard, but getting up there in years and not cooperative).  I continue to wonder why in a thread like this, contributors continue to parse Marina's 50+ year old testimony when she is still physically able to comment/testify.  It would seem that some intrepid JFK investigator/researcher could find a way to get her to talk (or maybe she would voluntarily?);  worst case scenario..... initiate a lawsuit( a la Jim Garrison) and subpoena her.  Whatever the case, Marina is still around and knows way more about LHO than any of us.

...And what about John Armstrong's hypothesis on the existence of a Harvey and a Lee.  This could be tested by a DNA sample from Robert Oswald matched against a sample from June or Rachel, Marina's daughters with LHO.

for what it's worth, my $.02

Dan,

Ruth Paine is very cooperative.  She spoke with me at length at the end of 2015.  She answered more questions for the WC (5,000+) than any other witness.  She has also given more interviews than any other witness, and many of these are all over YouTube.  However, she does have standards. 

Ruth Paine insists that anybody who interviews her must have read every single word of her WC testimony, without exception.  That's the prerequisite.

Marina Oswald answered the second-most questions from the WC attorneys -- more than 3,500 IIRC.  Her information is there.  Have we read it all?  Do we have specific questions about specific texts -- or like James D, only generic and vague suspicions?

As for the "Harvey and Lee" science fiction series, IMHO it represents the CIA-did-it CT gone wild -- gone crazy, actually. Everybody is a suspect -- every false sighting of Oswald is turned into a CIA plot going back to Oswald's childhood.  It's pathetic.  It's not worth the DNA test, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

Jim D. is incorrect to allege that Marina's physical abuse has been discredited.  We have sworn testimony from no less than seven WC witnesses to bruises on her face.

Again -- it's mainly the CIA-did-it CTers who need to make Marina into a fabricator -- no matter what -- because otherwise their CIA-did-it CT falls into the dirt.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Please see the new thread I created for this topic.

[James DiEugenio]

Mr. Doyle:

Marina was only out in the open about this for a relatively short time during the 30th anniversary.  At the beginning of the ARRB.

And even at that time, she was strangely in the grasp of the LaFontaines and their ephemeral book. 

She went on Oprah and denounced her testimony about the rifle.  And she appeared at the Harvard Conference in 1993.

Since then, she has refused to make any appearances as far as i know.  Jesse Ventura tried to get her on his JFK special.  But she would not go on camera.

I met her very briefly at the Harvard Conference in 1993.  When she heard I was writing a book about the Garrison investigation, she lit up like a Christmas tree.  She started raving about what a great guy and how charismatic Garrison was.  I asked her to speak at a candlelight commemoration for the 30th in Dealey Plaza, which she did.

IMO, Marina is hopelessly compromised and convoluted. She is just in a hopeless situation.  She has too many liabilities to be a credible witness since she was manipulated by others of dubious pedigree, e.g. Ruth Paine, PJM, for a period of about 15 years. Tom Sculy has made some interesting finds about who PJM was associated with at the time.

And as Bouhe said, why was she allowed to leave the USSR at the same time as a military defector who the Russians suspected was really a dangle? 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

To suspect that Marina Oswald was a secret KGB asset is to fall prey to the cloak-and-dagger melodrama of the CIA-did-it CT. 

Marina could not wait to get out of the USSR, and she never wanted to go back.

Marina wanted her babies baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church.  

Marina had a degree in pharmacology, and she would have been a successful single parent without LHO.

LHO made Marina's life a living hell.  Marina was as middle class as they come.

The JFK Kill Team tried to portray Marina and Ruth as KGB stooges, and some CIA-did-it CTers fell for it.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo 

 

 

 

[David Josephs]

This is from the 6 part series at  I did on Oswald not traveling to Mexico as described by the FBI over thousands of pages
https://kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-1  

There is so much more to this trip than Marina's ongoing lying about it.  The FBI's story doesn't hold water....  besides, he was with Odio and the 2 Cubans while he was supposed to be in Mexico...  That and the fact Alverado, the young Nicaraguan who tells the lie about the $6500 and the red headed negro, was a CIA asset - mostly likely brought in by Phillips...  but you'd have to get deep into the docs to find all this...  

or read my work...  

----------

As we’ve learned, so much of what Marina tells us is shrouded in conflict.  Yet as times and testimony change we can always count on her supporting the desired facts, even if she sounds terribly foolish doing so.

 

 

Prior to Ruth arriving, from early September though the 23^rd, Marina’s “husband” is not working yet is also not home every day reading as Marina claims.  Between the Unemployment Office, the library and Ryder’s Coffee shop, he was busy.  We finally learn about Oswald’s plans for Mexico from Marina in her testimony:

 

 

WCR testimony:

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August.
 

HSCA testimony:

Mr. McDONALD - When did you first learn of his planned trip to Mexico City? When did you first know about that?

Mrs. PORTER - Shortly before I left for Dallas with Ruth Paine.

Mr. McDONALD - How did you learn of this?

Mrs. PORTER - He told me about his plans to go to Mexico City and to visit the Cuban Embassy over there.

 

…..

Mr. RANKIN When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to Cuba.

The purpose of the visit as recorded and expressed by Chief of Mexico Station Win Scott was to get himself and his family to Odessa.  Cuba originally did not have anything to do with the evidence of the man calling himself Oswald.

…..

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No

…..

 

 

And as usual, the FIRST STORY offered, which usually conflicted with the desired story, had to be changed or be supported by some rational explanation for the change:

 

 

Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico (CE1781 & 1792), you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.

 

 

Marina describing her husband going to Mexico is fraught with problems and contradictions.  So much so that a reading of each subsequent questioning on the subject appears as if she is reading from a prepared script regardless of the question.  It was CUBA-CUBA-CUBA all the time,  when actually there is little if any evidence anywhere else in this case to support Oswald’s desire to be in Cuba.

Q. Did Lee tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico?

A. He was disappointed in Latin America so he wants to go and try Cuba.

Q. Why did he choose Mexico?

 

A. He told me he was going to take the bus.  (sic)

 

(This bit of testimony is the reference used by the Warren Commission to determine Oswald had taken a bus from New Orleans)

One has to wonder what occurred to change Marina’s account of Mexico between November 28 & 29, 1963 and Feb 3, 1964 when she began giving the “adjusted” account of her knowledge about her husband’s Mexico Trip…

CE1781: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0209b.htm

 

And the SS interview Nov 29^th: 

“She was asked whether she had any knowledge of Lee's trips to Mexico or Washington, D.C.  She replied in the negative.  She was asked whether she or Lee had any cameras and she replied that Lee bought one camera in Russia and a second one in the United States . She said one was a small camera and the other was a box camera. She added that she was not proficient with operating any Cameras and she never had an opportunity to do so.”

 

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0220b.htm  (“never had an opportunity to work the camera” requires yet another back-peddling recant when the infamous Backyard photos come up)

 

 

 

"Never had the opportunity to do so" ??  Yet she claims she held a camera to her face and took from 1-4 photos...  she barely remembers it yet to take a photo with that camera, Marina needed to view the following.   Can we really believe she forgets the process of taking amazingly clear, crisp images with this cheap box camera?

No, Marina never established any credibility...  this is one of the easiest examples to illustrate....

DJ

 

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

Furthermore, there was a FBI asset in the Gobernacion who handled/created/altered virtually all the evidence.

He's not mentioned in any book on Mexico that I've seen to date since virtually all work on the subject deals with the 5 days he was supposedly there
rather than the evidence which attempts to prove he traveled to and from.

Add to this the fact the FBI dropped physical evidence of Oswald's travel when it was learned that one Arturo Bosch of the Mexican president's staff changed the manifest for the Frontera bus line.  Until Hoover admits the evidence is altered, it serves as THE evidence of that leg of the trip...

Sorry, but Marina's husband was not in Mexico.  

Edited February 25, 2017 by David Josephs

[James DiEugenio]

Nice one David.  I have to agree that the weight of the evidence says he was not.

David's essay is heartily recommended:  https://kennedysandking.com/content/mexico-city-part-1

 

If he is correct than Marina was likely telling the truth the first time for the SS.

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

 

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 6:33 PM, David Josephs said:

Furthermore, there was a FBI asset in the Gobernacion who handled/created/altered virtually all the evidence.

He's not mentioned in any book on Mexico that I've seen to date since virtually all work on the subject deals with the 5 days he was supposedly there
rather than the evidence which attempts to prove he traveled to and from.

Add to this the fact the FBI dropped physical evidence of Oswald's travel when it was learned that one Arturo Bosch of the Mexican president's staff changed the manifest for the Frontera bus line.  Until Hoover admits the evidence is altered, it serves as THE evidence of that leg of the trip...

Sorry, but Marina's husband was not in Mexico.  

David,

Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) surely was in Mexico City.  Anybody who thinks differently is having trouble reading the Lopez Report (2003).

In your linked article you write:

• "How can we establish a relationship between Oswald's decision to go to Mexico and the way in which it was reported within the government, and Oswald's guilt for the JFK assassination? The WCR claims there was no connection whatsoever between the events to and from Mexico (as well as the time in Mexico) to Oswald's plan to kill JFK." (David Josephs) 

Your question is a good one, David, but your answer to it involves a great amount of guesswork and a greater amount of imagination.

The connection between Mexico City and the JFK assassination was already proposed by Jim Garrison in 1968, when he showed conclusively that LHO was working with Guy Banister in New Orleans at 544 Camp Street.  (Garrison later wrote a book on this: On the Trail of the Assassins (1988) which was the basis of Oliver Stone's 1992 move, JFK).

Their common project in New Orleans was a Fake FPCC chapter.  In August 1963, LHO cooperated with Guy Banister to get himself sheep-dipped as a officer of the FPCC -- even though he was no such thing.

First, LHO got himself arrested by police on August 9, for a fake scuffle with Carlos Bringuier.  This made the newspapers.   Secondly, LHO got himself a spot on the New Orleans Radio WDSU, on August 17, on the "Latin Listening Post" program.  Thirdly, LHO got himself a spot on TV on August 21, on the TV program, "Conversation Carte Blanche,"

The Lopez Report (2003) has shown that LHO took with him to Mexico City a fake resumé claiming to be an officer of the FPCC.  That resumé included all these newspaper clippings from New Orleans.

LHO argued at the Cuban Consulate that since he had been arrested for the "Revolution" in New Orleans, that he should be allowed into Cuba without waiting.  He was denied, and then he caused a loud fracas there.  He was well remembered by all.

The Cuban consul remembered LHO as "blonde," and many CTers try to make much of that -- but actually most Mexicans are black haired or dark-brown haired -- that is, Mexicans are by far mostly brunette.  LHO had "light brown hair," and for many Mexicans, that qualifies as "blonde."  That's really all there was to that.

The CIA later admitted that LHO was Impersonated in Mexico City over the wiretapped telephone from the Cuban Consulate to the USSR Embassy.  This is true -- but it has nothing to do with the fact that LHO himself was actually in Mexico City.   LHO was in Mexico City, and also he was Impersonated over that telephone.   Both are true.  This has been well-documented by Bill Simpich's free eBook, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014).

LHO was in Mexico City, attempting to sneak into Cuba within a conspiracy led by Guy Banister in New Orleans, with some support from Banister's confederates, David Ferrie, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin, Tommy Beckham and members of Interpen.   The purpose was to assassinate Fidel Castro from a high building with a high-powered rifle.  

David Atlee Phillips was possibly aware of this conspiracy and approved of it, as we read in his novel manuscript, The AMLASH Legacy (1988).

LHO was in Mexico City.   All the pieces fit.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Karl Kinaski]

Marina Oswald started her IC-career as as KGB honey trap in Leningrad back in 1959 ... she lied per order ... 

[Paul Trejo]

14 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said:

Marina Oswald started her IC-career as as KGB honey trap in Leningrad back in 1959 ... she lied per order ... 

Karl,

That's just what FBI agent James Hosty suspected, there in his book, Assignment Oswald (1996).

Yet in my CT, James Hosty himself was one of the JFK conspirators.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 28, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos