Marina, the Commission, and Mexico City

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 7:08 PM, Paul Trejo said:

David,

You deliberately distorted the clear evidence: Marina Oswald said about the alleged bus trip, "IT SEEMS."

Marina Oswald was not there.  Marina Oswald did not see LHO get on a bus.   Marina Oswald never saw a bus ticket.

We have plenty of data showing that LHO lied to Marina continually.

You're reaching, dude.   You can't use Marina Oswald as evidence tha LHO took a bus to Mexico City -- she wasn't there.

She only knows the lies she was told by LHO himself.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul - how you can so thoroughly EFF up a simple thing is amazing.  

"IT SEEMS" is the reply to another question.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he return by bus, also?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket was cheaper than two one-way tickets.

You're so eager to catch me being wrong you've gone blind to your own ignorance.

The WCR refers to this Q&A to publish "Oswald went to Houston via the 12:20 bus" for which there is not a shred of evidence.
This is the sum total of all the evidence getting him to Houston...

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. By bus.

This is not something she could know... and it will be another 7 months before she produces the famous Liebeler suitcase of Mexican "stuff" including a ticket stub which opens yet another can of worms.  But then you'd have to go read the work first, not something you seem able to accomplish on your own.

Quote

Marina Oswald was not there.  Marina Oswald did not see LHO get on a bus.   Marina Oswald never saw a bus ticket.

Which is why the WCR using her testimony as the source of FACTS is a complete joke...  What Lee did or didn't say to her is not what she says... until later when she lies about what she first said about the trip and what Oswald supposedly said...  Marina is the xxxx.

Quote

LHO was out of work for weeks in New Orleans and never told Marina for WEEKS.

Also, LHO was working with Guy Banister at 544 Camp Street for MONTHS in New Orleans, and Marina Oswald never had any clue at all.

If Oswald was working for the CIA and/or FBI as an asset to infiltrate leftist organizations while pretending to be pro-Castro, why in the world would he tell Marina?

Mr. RANKIN. At New Orleans, who did your husband work for?
Mrs. OSWALD. He worked for the Louisiana Coffee Co.

He worked at Reilly from May 15 until July 19 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did he work for this coffee company?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was from May until August, to the end of August.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he discharged?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mr. RANKIN. And then was he unemployed for a time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. It began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets.
Mr. RANKIN. Was that the Fair Play for Cuba demonstration?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur---before or after he lost his job?
Mrs. OSWALD. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such foolishness.

Paul - would you call what Oswald did with Bannister a "job" or as Marina put it "busy with such foolishness"?  Seems she was aware he was working, awazre he no longer was working and then was involved in the Pro-Castro foolishness.  It's 1963 - you honestly believe men shared what they did all day with the little woman?  

Even the Secret Service maintained there was no connection between Oswald and 544 Camp - why do you suppose Marina would know about it?

Bottom line here Paul is you get all excited when you believe you've "caught" someone and post using your fingers and not your brain.
You misinterpret virtually everything you read and then go on the offensive when it's pointed out to you.

YOU and you alone remain what's wrong with this public forum...   You remain blissfully ignorant of all you still don't know or understand yet take every opportunity to lodge foot in mouth when making your arguments.

Please don't bother addressing this post...  my hip waders are at the cleaners from the last pile of BS of yours...  You simply don't have the skills or the knowledge to play this game... which I guess is why your posts are repeatedly so poor.

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by David Josephs

[Mark Knight]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mark,

Do you believe that LHO entered Mexico City during the final week of September, 1963?

Because if you don't --- then why would you raise the issue about the bus ticket at all?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I raised the issue of the bus ticket because Mr. Josephs had raised the issue of the bus ticket.  He quoted Marina's testimony, in which she was of the opinion that, IF her husband had purchased a bus ticket, it would've been a round-trip ticket because it was cheaper that way.

I was simply pointing out that, Marina's conjecture notwithstanding, had Oswald TRULY been trying to get to Cuba, he would have had NO NEED for a round-trip bus ticket, since he'd be going to CUBA and NOT back to Texas.

I had NO IDEA that this concept was so extremely difficult for you to understand. Not all of my replies are directed at you; pay attention to the rest of the conversations in the thread.  You might understand better what's being said.

[Paul Trejo]

25 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

...

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City?
Mrs. OSWALD. By bus.

This is not something she could know... and it will be another 7 months before she produces the famous Liebeler suitcase of Mexican "stuff" including a ticket stub which opens yet another can of worms.  But then you'd have to go read the work first, not something you seem able to accomplish on your own.

Which is why the WCR using her testimony as the source of FACTS is a complete joke...  What Lee did or didn't say to her is not what she says... until later when she lies about what she first said about the trip and what Oswald supposedly said...  Marina is the <fibber>.

If Oswald was working for the CIA and/or FBI as an asset to infiltrate leftist organizations while pretending to be pro-Castro, why in the world would he tell Marina?

David,

Oddly, I agree with your first point -- that LHO going to Mexico City by bus is certainly something that Marina Oswald could NOT KNOW.

However -- in good faith, Marina told the WC attorneys what she honestly BELIEVED because that is what LHO told her that he would do.

That's all she knew.  

Also, it's clear that the WC attorneys knew that Marina was only telling the truth about what she BELIEVED, because they knew good and well that Marina was not with LHO to watch him buy that bus ticket.  So, it's obvious.

I agree that ANYBODY trying to make that into a FACT -- even the Warren Commission itself -- it ABSURD.  It is her OPINION, based on lies that LHO told her.

Marina is not a fibber.   After she took her oath for the Warren Commission, Marina consistently told the TRUTH at all times.  Period.

(Marina simply denied EVERYTHING to the FBI and the Secret Service when she was first arrested.  That would be normal for any American wife.).

You have no PROOF that Marina lied, David, and so you are simply incorrect to say that "Marina is the <fibber>."

Finally, as for your HYPOTHETICAL clause, "If..." (and only if) LHO "was working...to Infiltrate Leftist organizations while pretending to be pro-Castro, why in the world would he tell Marina?"  You're correct there, too.  He would not.  LHO lied to Marina Oswald CONSTANTLY.

Your only error there is assuming that LHO was working for the CIA.   LHO was working for Guy Banister at 544 Camp Street.  That should be clear after 50 years.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

3 minutes ago, Mark Knight said:

I raised the issue of the bus ticket because Mr. Josephs had raised the issue of the bus ticket.  He quoted Marina's testimony, in which she was of the opinion that, IF her husband had purchased a bus ticket, it would've been a round-trip ticket because it was cheaper that way.

I was simply pointing out that, Marina's conjecture notwithstanding, had Oswald TRULY been trying to get to Cuba, he would have had NO NEED for a round-trip bus ticket, since he'd be going to CUBA and NOT back to Texas.

I had NO IDEA that this concept was so extremely difficult for you to understand. Not all of my replies are directed at you; pay attention to the rest of the conversations in the thread.  You might understand better what's being said.

Mark,

The concept isn't difficult -- it was your presentation. 

It seemed that you were posing a riddle about the two-way bus ticket.  Some context would have been helpful.

Thanks for explaining your position so thoughtfully.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

23 hours ago, David Josephs said:

yes, let's get back to Marina, the WC and Mexico City

Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico (CE1781 & 1792), you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0209b.htm
Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.

And the SS interview Nov 29^th: 

“She was asked whether she had any knowledge of Lee's trips to Mexico or Washington, D.C.  She replied in the negative.  She was asked whether she or Lee had any cameras and she replied that Lee bought one camera in Russia and a second one in the United States . She said one was a small camera and the other was a box camera. She added that she was not proficient with operating any Cameras and she never had an opportunity to do so.”  ... 
 

David,

Here is another example of your misrepresentation of the FACTS.   For the Warren Commission, Marina Oswald was under oath.  She told the truth.

When Marina was first arrested by the FBI and isolated by the Secret Service (for the crime of being the wife of a suspect) she DENIED EVERYTHING.

That is strictly normal behavior.  You are comparing apples and oranges, David.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

22 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

...Please show us the proof that Morales said he played a part in the JFK murder?

I await your answer on this.

James,

It's a well-known account from David Morales' childhood friend, Ruben Carbajal.  They were very drunk, and the topic arose about JFK, and David immediately became peeved, and blurted out, 'Well, we sure took care of that SOB!"

Although some people will claim it doesn't mean anything -- others claim that Morales was talking about the CIA "taking care" of JFK.

Yet David Morales did not say it was the CIA.   He just said "We" and one is left to fill in the blanks.

I have tried to show (following Bill Simpich) that David Morales went rogue -- off the reservation -- and joined a CIVILIAN plot led by General Walker in the US Radical Right.

In my interpretation of David Morales' confession to Ruben Carbajal, he meant "We in the Radical Right."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

14 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

James,

It's a well-known account from David Morales' childhood friend, Ruben Carbajal.  They were very drunk, and the topic arose about JFK, and David immediately became peeved, and blurted out, 'Well, we sure took care of that SOB!"

Although some people will claim it doesn't mean anything -- others claim that Morales was talking about the CIA "taking care" of JFK.

Yet David Morales did not say it was the CIA.   He just said "We" and one is left to fill in the blanks.

I have tried to show (following Bill Simpich) that David Morales went rogue -- off the reservation -- and joined a CIVILIAN plot led by General Walker in the US Radical Right.

In my interpretation of David Morales' confession to Ruben Carbajal, he meant "We in the Radical Right."

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

Even though I don't share your view that the Radical Right plotted and carried out the assassination of JFK, I must say that I find it interesting that Mr. DiEugenio apparently doesn't believe Morales was involved in any way.

--  Tommy

[James DiEugenio]

That comment you quote from Morales, which I believe came from Fonzi's book, is so generic that, for me it has little or no forensic value.

For example, John Simkin argued it simply meant that he  heard about some people in the CIA who pulled off the murder of Kennedy. It could even mean less than that really.  

It does not at all denote what you say it means.  And if that is what you think, then what is the proof of such?  And please do not give me that Howard Hunt baloney, since you don't now diddly squat about that "confession" either.

Edited March 24, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:03 AM, Mark Knight said:

I raised the issue of the bus ticket because Mr. Josephs had raised the issue of the bus ticket.  He quoted Marina's testimony, in which she was of the opinion that, IF her husband had purchased a bus ticket, it would've been a round-trip ticket because it was cheaper that way.

I was simply pointing out that, Marina's conjecture notwithstanding, had Oswald TRULY been trying to get to Cuba, he would have had NO NEED for a round-trip bus ticket, since he'd be going to CUBA and NOT back to Texas.

I had NO IDEA that this concept was so extremely difficult for you to understand. Not all of my replies are directed at you; pay attention to the rest of the conversations in the thread.  You might understand better what's being said.

And you make a very good point about a round trip ticket not being on Oswald's radar...  yet why not buy a ticket to Laredo for which MAJOR GREEN of Continental Bus tells us there were 2 buses leaving on the 26th, at 4:40pm and 8:15pm?  an FBI report from 12/10

What happens instead is very strange...  On Dec 16 we get another report for which GREEN adds 2 more buses that only go to Houston.  Why only Houston? Possibly because he tells us the first stop for the 12:20pm bus is Houston.  So the FBI interviews the Houston bus ticket agents.  Not only do none remember Oswald, only 1 ticket is sold for this part of the trip (Houston to Laredo).  Despite having the ticket # they obviously cannot connect the ticket to Oswald.  

 

To most people this puts the question of whether Oswald traveled thru Houston to Laredo to rest...  not the FBI.  

Between Dec 16, 1963 & February 20, 1964 the FBI interviews (12/20) the driver of the bus between New Orleans and Beaumont, where the driver is changed and also interviewed stating there is no memory of Oswald.  Not the most concrete evidence but another brick in the wall.

Nothing on this part of the trip until 2/17 we get an FBI report stating that BOWEN/OSBORNE claims he was the only American on that bus.  The WCR chose not to believe him

January 1963:  On 2/20 we get WCD240/CE2191 related to interviews in Houston from January.  "With the exception of Hammett, none recall seeing Oswald" is important since Hammett claims there is only 1 ticket agent at the counter (CE2191 p6) yet the report below shows 2 others: Stephenson and Marshall - Hammett is not listed anywhere as a Ticket agent yet becomes the corroboration for a possibility.  Since there is no evidence for the 12:20 bus to Houston AND the bus drivers both state they don't remember Oswald AND no one but this one man has any recollection of Oswald..  Hammett's evidence MUST be corroborated...  it's not.

Yet not only was he interviewed he claims the person he sold the ticket to on Sept 25 looked like Oswald yet the clothes described were mentioned to Marina who claims her Oswald did not have clothes like that.  CE2121 begins by mentioning the showing of a TICKET STUB to Hammett...  Except that ticket stub is not offered in any of the exhibits or could be found at the archives...  If ANYONE has an image of this stub - please post....

Hammett tells a story different from every other Houston-related person asked... this person might have been Oswald... yet without the ticket or any other documentation related to this leg of the trip, we have nothing to corroborate HAMMETT.

 

 

On the singular word of HAMMETT, Hoover sends this note to Rankin dated MAY 4, 1964 admitting they still do not have any idea how Oswald gets from New Orleans to Houston - we also need to mention, if we'll take just one person's word, that there is evidence Oswald was in Austin on Sept 25th for a meeting at the SSS (p8 CE2137)

Here's a map of the trip and the cities mentioned along the way.  The FBI used their power and assets to create a story with self corroborating evidence...  lickily they offer this evidence for us to analyze and correlate to what they're hiding.

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by David Josephs

[James DiEugenio]

As per PT's fairy tale about Oswald misleading Marina about MC, one only has to refer to her Secret Service interview which, unlike what she says, was with the SS, not the FBI.  

It is absolutely hysterical that PT actually says that we should value her WC testimony today over all, when, in fact Marina herself doesn't value it today.  She has denounced it more than once, in private and public.  If anything exposes PT's cherry picking methodology, that does.

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

David,

Here is another example of your misrepresentation of the FACTS.   For the Warren Commission, Marina Oswald was under oath.  She told the truth.

When Marina was first arrested by the FBI and isolated by the Secret Service (for the crime of being the wife of a suspect) she DENIED EVERYTHING.

That is strictly normal behavior.  You are comparing apples and oranges, David.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul - it's time for you to find another subject to butcher mercilessly.   

Quote

She told the truth

Sorry buddy, you're delusional

[James DiEugenio]

Pretty soon there might the  mutiny against Captain Bligh, I mean Capt. Trejo.

Edited March 24, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

As per PT's fairy tale about Oswald misleading Marina about MC, one only has to refer to her Secret Service interview which, unlike what she says, was with the SS, not the FBI.  

It is absolutely hysterical that PT actually says that we should value her WC testimony today over all, when, in fact Marina herself doesn't value it today.  She has denounced it more than once, in private and public.  If anything exposes PT's cherry picking methodology, that does.

James,

You are stating as a FACT what is merely your OPINION.

Marina Oswald repeatedly said that she disbelieved LHO was the "Lone Nut" killer of JFK -- but she also said (like Robert Oswald, Ruth Paine and Michael Paine) that the circumstantial evidence presented by the Warren Commission was overwhelming.

Still -- all four of these people who knew LHO personally would always keep open minds about the JFK assassination.  This is far from "not valuing today" what they testified in 1964.  It's common sense.  But of course, common sense doesn't sell your CIA-did-it CT make-believe.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/24/2017 at 2:47 PM, David Josephs said:

Paul - it's time for you to find another subject to butcher mercilessly.   

Sorry buddy, you're delusional

David,

First of all, I'm only defending myself against your continual insults.  Turnabout is fair play.

Secondly, you should stick to what you know, instead of reaching out into what remains for your work, the Great Unknown.

If we scrape off the "Harvey and Lee" sludge from your Mexico City analysis, we can commend your work for having isolated many primary documents, important to history, and gathered them together in one place.  Also, your exposition of the Mexico bus ticket fiction was worthwhile.

You even raised the issue of the Mexican Immigration Records showing the date and manner in which LHO entered Mexico.  Your interpretation was faulty (because it was influenced by John Armstrong), but your presentation of the primary documents was promising. 

Why not stick to what you can prove -- and stop attacking Marina Oswald for no good reason?  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 25, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:09 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Paul,

Even though I don't share your view that the Radical Right plotted and carried out the assassination of JFK, I must say that I find it interesting that Mr. DiEugenio apparently doesn't believe Morales was involved in any way.

--  Tommy

Tommy,

Yes, I agree emphatically -- especially since James Di Eugenio generally promotes a CIA-did-it scenario with relish.

For example, James has published (Destiny Betrayed, 1992, 2013) that Ruth Paine, a Quaker and mother of two in Irving, Texas, was in fact a hardened CIA agent assigned to "separate Marina from Lee."   For what reason, James does not say -- but it sounds melodramatic.

That reminds me -- I should review James' published works to see what he says about Marina, the Commission and Mexico City, within the context of Ruth Paine.  This could be interesting.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo