Alistair Briggs Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Going through this information, I was beginning to think that there may have been one and only one black eye incident, upon which a legend was born through gossip. Especially when I read Mrs. de Mohrenschildt's testimony where she said, "We saw her with a black eye once." (This in spite of her husband's testimony making it sound worse than that.) But then I read George Bouhe's testimony, who mentions two instances of Marina having a black eye. I felt a little skeptical, so I decided to check out his account of the second black eye. I did so, and as it turns out, his account doesn't even mention that he had contact with Marina on that occasion. Rather, Marina Called Mrs. Meller from a gas station and she told Marina to take a taxi to their house. Mr. LIEBELER - Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did she have bruises? Mrs. MELLER - She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you can see she was shaking. Mr. LIEBELER - Did she appear to be bruised? Mrs. MELLER - I will not say exactly but she was out of herself. Mr. LIEBELER - She seemed to be upset? Mrs. MELLER - Nervous, upset and looked like - she did not cry exactly and at me now but looks like she cried - her eyes. Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you what she and Oswald had been arguing about? Mrs. MELLER - I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not remember asking really for what or something. Liebeler asks Mrs. Meller twice about bruises, and Mrs. Meller gives no answer other than Marina was nervous and upset. It is likely, in my opinion, that Bouhe just made that second black eye up. See the first 'black eye' that Bouhe said he saw, that is probably the same one that Margurite saw also (the time fits in well)... the 'second' one Bouhe mentioned (but didn't see) was at a different time... granted Mrs Meller gives no answer to whether she saw 'bruises'... and sure Bouhe may be 'making it up' about it being a 'black eye'... but she does say that Marina said that 'he beat her' - and that's a diiferent incident from when she mentions the 'walking in to the door'... Sandy you are doing a good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Detailed Summary of Testimony Witnessed Beating or Confession of Beating... Alexander Kleinlerer: Claimed to have seen Lee slap Marina twice in the face. In his affidavit he goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was, and how everybody in the White Russian community disliked him. Also he badly he mistreated Marina. He has nothing good to say about Lee. This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration... Sandy, Alex Kleinlerer's testimony is corroborated by the testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson. She was at that time the wife of Gary Taylor, and was helping the Oswald's to move out of Elena Hall's house. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) On 2/25/2017 at 9:11 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said: It's nonsense it what it is. You have a woman that states she was abused. You have her mother in-law who agrees with her. BTW, that mother-in-law normally makes every excuse in the world for her son. You have a first-hand witness to the abuse (Kleinlerer) who makes two statements to it. That is pretty much all you would need to convict in a court of law. "When Oswald came to move his wife, he slapped her in the face and caused her to go into another room crying." http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95646&search="kleinlerer"#relPageId=193&tab=page "I entered the house. Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything." The following is not physical abuse but it certainly is emotional abuse: "I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a mere chattel, proceeded to vigorously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../testimony/kleinler.htm You have de Mohrenschildt, who see the bruises and confronts LHO who then tacitly admits the abuse. You have others who see the bruises. You have an apartment manager who heard the fighting. So you have a first-hand witness, the statements of the victim and a mountain of circumstantial evidence. How much more do you need? The argument that no one called the police is disingenuous. That was a very different time and people believed (especially in a conservative community) in minding their own business. The argument that Marina made excuses such as running into a door-we have never heard that before have we? The victim often makes excuses for the abuser. Now, if you want to argue that Marina overstated the abuse after the fact for example in Marina & Lee, that is a reasonable position since we only have her word for those incidents. But there is no serious argument that she wasn't abused. Except that you folks need to show LHO was a non-violent, normal guy who was setup (or whatever theory you are pushing). Tracy, Very well put. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 "We have sworn testimony from no less than seven WC witnesses to bruises on [Marina's] face." To believe WC testimonies is like to believe in the easter bunny ... hold on Trejo LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) On 2/25/2017 at 9:11 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said: DUPLICATE Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 On 2/25/2017 at 9:44 AM, James DiEugenio said: One last thing about Bouhe: one of the most fascinating pieces of evidence that was disguised by the WC and never pursued was the piece of wrapping paper that someone, somewhere was trying to send to Oswald via Ruth Paine just a day or so before the assassination. If you recall, this ended up in the dead letter room of the nearby Dallas USPS building. The police did everything they could to hide it away. But so many people saw it at the post office that it became a topic of conversation at the coffee shop across the street. Finally the FBI, several days after the fact, did one of their, shall we call it, less than rigorous inquiries--which, of course, never got close to the bottom of the episode. But something that is possibly really interesting did surface. In the DPD property clerk manifest, there is a notice addressed to Oswald dated the 20th of November--which may very well be for that paper wrap,stuck to the other side is a notice for George Bouhe, except it is for him at his address. But it was found at the Paine's house during their search. Before Tracy says this is more nonsense, all I am doing is presenting the facts. What would a notice for Bouhe be doing at Ruth's glued to the back of one for Oswald? And who attached them to each other? And why? This is cloak-and-dagger writing at its most obvious. --Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Michael, if you are referring to the White Russian history link, I have read the first half of it. Time restraints and errands prevented me from reading the rest but I will finish it today. It's a fascinating piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) On 2/25/2017 at 11:57 AM, Sandy Larsen said: I was curious about this wrapping paper, so I checked it out. I figured it might have something to do with the bag the Carcano rifle was supposedly wrapped in. In Destiny Betrayed, Jim hypothesizes that the wrapping paper was sent to Oswald in order to get his fingerprints on it. Not knowing why the paper had been mailed to him, Oswald would have discarded it. Or if not, it would be found at the Paine residence when it was searched. And the authorities would then have it as evidence. (I've read Destiny Betrayed, but had forgot about this.) More cloak-and-dagger nonsense. The dates on the packages don't add up. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karl Kinaski Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Ruth Paine Fan and WC testimony believer Trejo is a waste of time. I ve crossed that bridges long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) I've discovered that George de Mohrenschildt's testimony cannot be trusted. He took an incident completely unrelated to him, made himself a key player, and fabricated a dramatic story around it! Mrs. Meller testified that Marina had gone to a filling station and called her on the phone, saying that she was leaving Lee and wanted to stay with her. Mrs. Meller told her to take a taxi to her place and that she could stay there for a while. In contrast, George de Mohrenschildt testified that he skipped his usual tennis game and went to the Oswald residence instead, because of Lee's abuse. He forcibly removed Marina against Lee's wishes, with Lee making threats against him. He then drove Marina to the Meller residence. (You really should read de Mohrenschildt's story, below. It's incredible.) IMO there is nothing in de Mohrenschildt's testimony that can be trusted. It should be thrown out altogether. Here are the relevant sections in Mrs. Meller's and de Mohrenschildt's testimonies: Mrs. Meller: Mr. LIEBELER - Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962, after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that? Mrs. MELLER - Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call we and say that her husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the filling station and said the man - she did not have a penny of money, and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 8 weeks, maybe month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?" She said "in Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very. much space," I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said "Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or 10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no coat, no money, nothing. George De Mohrenschildt: Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had then in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me. And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection. Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe I called them. I don't remember exactly. Anyway, they were ready to receive her. And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things." And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some time, you better behave." I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police." I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other people's affairs, after all. Well, he said, "I will get even with you." I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I said, "I am going to take Marina anyway." So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual. After a little while he helped. me to carry the things out. He completely changed his mind. Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. And we cleaned that house completely. We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded everything was taken out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there. Edited June 22, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 Summary updates in red: Detailed Summary of Testimony Witnessed Beating or Confession of Beating Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair." Alexander Kleinlerer: Claimed to have seen Lee slap Marina twice in the face. In his affidavit he goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was, and how everybody in the White Russian community disliked him. Also he badly he mistreated Marina. He has nothing good to say about Lee. This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration. Especially considering Kleinlerer's ties to people like George Bouhe and George de Mohrenschildt. White Russian Community MembersWho Witnessed Bruises George Bouhe: Black eye on two occasions. The second black eye has been discredited. (See this post.) Marina told him Lee did it. (Others involved: The Fords, the Mellers, Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray.) Jeane de Mohrenschildt: She said, "We saw her with a black eye once." (Others involved: Her husband, George Bouhe, the Mellers, the Fords..) Declan & Katrina Ford: Bruises on face. (Others present: George Bouhe, the Mellers. Others involved: Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray.) Anna Meller: Bruised eye. Marina told her it was caused by her walking into a door when feeding the baby at night. Testimony Deemed to be Untrustworthy George de Mohrenschildt: See this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn Meredith Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Waiting for Trejo's response to RCD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) On 2/27/2017 at 0:42 AM, Alistair Briggs said: Marguerite saw bruises in October, Elena Hall saw bruises in July. Alistair, What is your source for Marguerite seeing the bruises in October? The only time reference I could see in her testimony is that, after describing the bruise incident, she finishes up by saying something like, "then they moved to Dallas." Oswald moved from Ft. Worth to Dallas on October 9. So all I can figure is that she saw the bruises some time before October 9. Edited September 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Karl Kinaski said: "We have sworn testimony from no less than seven WC witnesses to bruises on [Marina's] face." To believe WC testimonies is like to believe in the easter bunny ... hold on Trejo LOL! Karl, Most WC testimonies are truthful. Only the WC testimonies of the JFK conspirators contain overt lies (e.g. Walker, Surrey, Hosty, Fritz, Holmes, Bookhout, Walthers, etc...) While it is true that the FBI tampered with evidence to prop up a "Lone Nut" theory of the JFK assassination, the vast majority of the 488 witnesses for the WC had no idea that was going on. They simply told the truth that they knew to the best of their ability. The challenge for the JFK researcher is to identify exactly where the lies reside. You have not done that. You seem to be content to dismiss the whole WC as 100% lies. That is an amateur approach. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Summary updates, in red: Detailed Summary of Testimony Witnessed Beating or Confession of Beating Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair." Alexander Kleinlerer: Claimed to have seen Lee slap Marina twice in the face. In his affidavit he goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was, and how everybody in the White Russian community disliked him. Also he badly he mistreated Marina. He has nothing good to say about Lee. This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration. Especially considering Kleinlerer's ties to people like George Bouhe and George de Mohrenschildt. White Russian Community MembersWho Witnessed Bruises George Bouhe: Black eye on two occasions. The second black eye has been discredited. (See this post.) Marina told him Lee did it. (Others involved: The Fords, the Mellers, Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray.) Jeane de Mohrenschildt: She said, "We saw her with a black eye once." (Others involved: Her husband, George Bouhe, the Mellers, the Fords..) Declan & Katrina Ford: Bruises on face. (Others present: George Bouhe, the Mellers. Others involved: Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray.) Elena Hall: Black and blue over half the face. (Others present: George Bouhe) Anna Meller: Bruised eye. Marina told her it was caused by her walking into a door when feeding the baby at night. Testimony Deemed to be Untrustworthy George de Mohrenschildt: See this post. Edited February 27, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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