What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

How about we just settle on the fact that Lee was abusive?

Only if someone produces some credible testimony to back it up.

And only if the same is done for Marina. (Let's be fair.) According to John Armstrong in Harvey & Lee:

As Jeanne was driving Marina shouted in Russian for her to slow down and then
began to admire a tall, muscular, black man standing on the corner. Marina exclaimed,
"Look at him! Look! What a handsome man! He is fantastic, fantastic!. .... He is so big
and strong! What muscles he must have ..... Neither Russians nor American Whites can
compare to such beautiful men."

Jeanne was distressed by the fact that a young woman, with a husband and infant
daughter, would show such uninhibited admiration for another man. But Jeanne was
unaware of Marina's background, her sexual promiscuity, or her numerous affairs with foreign
men in Russia. Following her marriage to Lee Harvey Oswald, Marina continued to write
love letters to Muhammed Reggab, the Moroccan exchange student she dated in early
1961 in Moscow. In late 1962, following her move to the United States, Marina wrote
to her former boyfriend, Anatoly Shpanko (Sasha).

After spending more time with Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, Marina began to
speak freely about her pre-marital experiences and her admiration for strong, sexy men.
She spoke enthusiastically about the Cuban men she met in Russia, and talked about
the handsome fellows with who she shared her bed in Minsk.

George began to notice that Marina liked to ridicule Lee Harvey, calling him a
fool, a moron, and once overheard her say, "You are always thinking of politics instead
of making money-you act like a big shot." Marina's antagonism toward her husband
was also noticed by other members of the White Russian community, who were offended
by some of her remarks.

I recall that at least one of the women in the White Russian Community, with whom Marina lived, blamed Marina for the fighting between her and Lee. (I believe this was Elena Hall. And there was other finger pointing toward Marina that I don't recall now.)

Most the complaints against Lee among the White Russians (other than the wife abuse gossip that was going around, and the bruise that many saw), as I recall, was that he was standoffish. And that he complained about (or wasn't appreciative of) the gifts they were giving Marina.

So if anybody wants to believe or profess that Lee abusive, they'd better be fair and say the same about Marina. And then prove or disprove it for both.

I for one am going to stick with what has been sufficiently proven (IMO), and that is that Lee probably hit Marina... once. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

Sandy I believe almost all of these Marina stories as you relate them.

As she herself has mentioned in some public interviews, she had her own flaws and made many mistakes.

I  do think she treated Lee badly at times with disparaging words and poor provider and even manhood insulting ones?

I feel Marina married Lee for reasons other than love for him as who he was. More selfish reasons.

Their marriage was a bad match and doomed from the start because of so many unmet psychological and emotional need reasons beyond their understanding and control.

On balance, in comparing their behaviors toward each other, most everyone will always condemn Lee more because he physically assaulted Marina and any harmful things she may have done to him were just words. And a growing rejection of him personally. 

 

[Paul Brancato]

I'm agnostic on the question of how often. I'm sure Marina would not want to go into detail about whatever it was. 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So if anybody wants to believe or profess that Lee abusive, they'd better be fair and say the same about Marina. And then prove or disprove it for both.

But what is the evidence that Marina was "abusive" rather than just nagging? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, try going into court and saying "yes I hit my wife but she was nagging."

Now Sandy, I'll show you that I do not have such an intense bias against Armstrong that I cannot believe anything he says. In fact, much of what he says about Marina that you quoted is probably true.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But what is the evidence that Marina was "abusive" rather than just nagging? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, try going into court and saying "yes I hit my wife but she was nagging."

Now Sandy, I'll show you that I do not have such an intense bias against Armstrong that I cannot believe anything he says. In fact, much of what he says about Marina that you quoted is probably true.

I've seen people finally snap and blow their tops when nagged enough. And it isn't necessarily just nagging. Marina may have constantly put Lee down, saying he wasn't a man, etc.

Remember, we are now talking about being abusive over all. As far as we know, Oswald hit Marina once. Outside of that, maybe they were equally abusive. Maybe Lee was more, or maybe Marina was more. My whole point is that if someone is going to call Lee abusive, he'd better be fair and look at Marina's behavior as well. And in both cases produce the evidence.

[James DiEugenio]

Marina Oswald had serious dental issues, and a tooth or two was pulled in early October 1962. Members of the White Russian community knew of these issues in early September ( as noted in Kleinerer’s affidavit). If Sandy L is correct that  the visual ID of a bruise on Marina seems limited to a luncheon in late August, then it cannot be ruled out that this bruise was the result of swelling related to the abscessed tooth (teeth).

Kleinerer’s affidavit wasn’t taken until late June 1964. I think it’s safe to assume he was deliberately bypassed from WC testimony because a piece of paper was found in Oswald’s possessions with Kleinerer’s name, work address, and personal and work phone numbers. As noted in Secret service report (CD 87 p 223). Why such lackadaisical follow-up? Kleinerer also claims to be “good friends” with Max Clark.

Jeanne demohrenschiwdt told the Warren Commission that the plan was, in Autumn 1962, to find someone Marina could move in with for 2-3 months. This seems to be the purpose of the wife-beating stories.

Trejo continues to insist Oswald had severe unemployment problems, but this is not at all the case. Unemployed for four days in early October 1962, and then unemployed for about a month after leaving JCS, coinciding with FPCC activity in Dallas, then move to New Orleans.

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

...Trejo continues to insist Oswald had severe unemployment problems, but this is not at all the case. Unemployed for four days in early October 1962, and then unemployed for about a month after leaving JCS, coinciding with FPCC activity in Dallas, then move to New Orleans.

James,

LHO returned to the USA in June, 1962.   He was unemployed for 4 weeks until he got his first job at Leslie Welding on July 10th.

According to Russian Expatriates, Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) stopped working for Leslie Welding in Fort Worth during late August or early September, 1962.

If so, then LHO was unemployed -- and seeking housing in Dallas -- for about 5 weeks until he finally got the job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall (JCS) on October 10th, 1962.

Then, six months later, on April 10th, 1963 LHO was let go from JCS for failing his probationary duties there.

LHO was unemployed for 4 more weeks until he got the job at Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans on May 10th.  

However, LHO was fired from Reily Coffee Company only 11 weeks later, on July 19th.  

LHO was unemployed 12 more weeks until he got a job at TSBD on October 16th.

LHO was therefore unemployed for 4 months during 1963.   He was arguably unemployed for 9 weeks in the last half of 1962.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

PT:

The info above came from a lurker friend of mine.  But even though its not mine, anyway one can see that he is not talking about New Orleans.  Since he was focusing on the White Russians.

About half your post concerns New Orleans, which was not the point. 

But in that milieu, LHO was in a whole new setting, this time the anti Castro Cubans, and the CIA contract agents.  And since Oswald's function was to discredit the FPCC, his activities were going to be more provocative and media oriented. Therefore, the idea of holding down a job became even more of a background factor.  As Jim Garrison figured out, some of Oswald's working partners were transferred to NASA after LHO left.  (Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins, p. 116) Perhaps to conceal the fact that his hiring there was nothing more than a pretext and he spent more time loafing at the garage then he did at the coffee company.

 

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, from my lurker friend, there is another error, this time about Oswald in Dallas-Fort Worth in PT's chronology. 

This is what PT says:  

PT: According to Russian Expatriates, Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) stopped working for Leslie Welding in Fort Worth during late August or early September, 1962.

If so, then LHO was unemployed -- and seeking housing in Dallas -- for about 5 weeks until he finally got the job at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall (JCS) on October 10th, 1962.

But if one looks in the Warren Report, you will see the following:  "Oswald worked at the Leslie Welding Co. on Monday October 8, but failed to appear on the following day." (p. 718)

So much for early September. This evaporates that five week gap in employment. BTW, the reason it appears that Oswald quit that job  was because George D convinced him to move from Fort Worth to Dallas.  (Melanson, Spy Saga, p. 81)  His activities for that following week are hard to pin down, but he supposedly went to the TEC for a job referral.  Although DeM's family members say it was the Baron that got him that job at JCS next. From the lurker:

 "Oswald likely quit at JCS as well. The firm’s president suggests to the WC that he was let go because of poor work, but Oswald’s time cards show he was working 6 day weeks throughout March, up to his leaving, and the president also said that only the better workers came in for 6 day work weeks."

Marina now stayed with Elena Hall and Gary Taylor while seeing a dentist at Baylor Dental Clinic about four times in two weeks.  At this time both DeM and Bouhe are subsidizing the Oswalds. (WR, p. 718, Melanson, p. 81)

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Andrew Prutsok]

On 3/7/2017 at 10:47 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But what is the evidence that Marina was "abusive" rather than just nagging? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, try going into court and saying "yes I hit my wife but she was nagging."

Now Sandy, I'll show you that I do not have such an intense bias against Armstrong that I cannot believe anything he says. In fact, much of what he says about Marina that you quoted is probably true.

A hundred years ago, men could have their women institutionalized for nagging. 

[Alistair Briggs]

12 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But if one looks in the Warren Report, you will see the following:  "Oswald worked at the Leslie Welding Co. on Monday October 8, but failed to appear on the following day." (p. 718)

 

Just on that note.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he work there, to the best of your recollection?
Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there.
Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about October 8th, 1962?
Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th?
Mr. BARGAS. It is possible.
Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of September when his employment was terminated?
Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

...

Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day?
Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing."
In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's what the other guys would say.
Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. He said he was up there in Irving somewhere I--don't remember the address or exactly what place it was, but as far as I know that was it.

After walking out on the job at Leslie Welding Co, Oswald wrote a letter to them telling them where to send his check, and then they sent him on his last pay check... and presumably it would have taken some days for the letters to go on their journey's... according to here Oswald cashed that check on the 5th of October.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

1 hour ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

A hundred years ago, men could have their women institutionalized for nagging. 

I could say that some things were better 100 years ago, but of course I wouldn't do that!

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, if you follow this and read between the lines,  its not at all suggestive to say that DeMohrenschildt, and his pals are building a legend for Oswald.   That of a chronically unemployed wife abuser who, every once in awhile, takes a walk in the park with his daughter.

 And when doing so fires his rifle into the sky to kill some birds.

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

From everything I've read, I get the feeling that the de Mohrenschildts did what they were instructed to do against Oswald, but in reality really liked him.

[James DiEugenio]

I agree, that does seem the case.  Since they seem to have felt some remorse after it became clear to them what had been done.

And boy, it really does seem like the CIA tried to destabilize the Baron around the time of the Church Committee and the HSCA.  What with that mysterious Dr. Mendoza, and then Oltmans, and then Epstein.  (See Destiny Betrayed, Second edition, pgs. 334-38)  If you read those pages, you will see that Oltmans was a real disinfo agent.  And Mendoza was either a quack or a plant.

And let us not forget the letters to George Bush.  

One of the great failures of the HSCA was they never got to the bottom of the Baron's death.