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Sandy Larsen

What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

284 posts in this topic

The quote from Marina proves nothing. LHO wasn't violent in the Soviet Union and nobody said he was. The abuse started after they came to the US and he had a comfort zone. Of course he wouldn't be violent in front of his aunt. Not every person who knew him witnessed the violence or the bruises. LHO was only physically abusive for a specific period of time and then stopped for whatever reason, probably because of the admonishment from de Mohrenschildt. He realized he couldn't get away with it anymore.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

 Not every person who knew him witnessed the violence or the bruises. 

7 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Sandy,

Not every person was a witness to the abuse. 

-------------------

Tracy, That kind of comment is beneath you. I am kind of surprised. Surely you don't want to go over how few witnesses there were to abuse, if indeed any can be substantiated or accepted.

 

Edited by Michael Clark

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2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The quote from Marina proves nothing. LHO wasn't violent in the Soviet Union and nobody said he was. The abuse started after they came to the US and he had a comfort zone. Of course he wouldn't be violent in front of his aunt. Not every person who knew him witnessed the violence or the bruises. LHO was only physically abusive for a specific period of time and then stopped for whatever reason, probably because of the admonishment from de Mohrenschildt. He realized he couldn't get away with it anymore.


Tracy,

You're making stuff up.

 

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17 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

7 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Sandy,

Not every person was a witness to the abuse. 

-------------------

Tracy, That kind of comment is beneath you. I am kind of surprised. Surely you don't want to go over how few witnesses there were to abuse, if indeed any can be substantiated or accepted.

 

Michael,

Let me clarify. Only Klienlerer witnessed the abuse first hand. The abuse only occurred during a specific period of time and thereafter LHO stopped, apparently because he felt he could no longer get away with it. But not every person that knew him could be expected to have either witnessed the abuse or the bruises because it occurred during a specific time frame.

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16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Tracy,

You're making stuff up.

 

My point was, no abuse was ever alleged while they were in Russia. LHO apparently saw the abuse as a way to gain strict control over Marina after they returned to the US. he eventually gave up on it because he realized he could not continue to get away with it.

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On 6/18/2017 at 4:17 PM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

My point was, no abuse was ever alleged while they were in Russia. LHO apparently saw the abuse as a way to gain strict control over Marina after they returned to the US. he eventually gave up on it because he realized he could not continue to get away with it.

"because he realized he could not continue to get away with it."

Really, Mr Parnell. and you know this how, exactly?

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6 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

"because he realized he could not continue to get away with it."

Really, Mr Parnell. and you know this how, exactly?

That is an assumption on my part, but he was confronted regarding the abuse by de Mohrenschildt whose opinion he apparently respected.

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14 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

That is an assumption on my part, but he was confronted regarding the abuse by de Mohrenschildt whose opinion he apparently respected.

Thank you for your answer.

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14 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

That is an assumption on my part, but he was confronted regarding the abuse by de Mohrenschildt whose opinion he apparently respected.

It's to bad this cowardly practice wasn't more of a crime in 1963 then we might have some real proof.

 

Tracy, as for DeM, do you accept his whole tale the way he describes it or are you cherry picking?

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2 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

It's to bad this cowardly practice wasn't more of a crime in 1963 then we might have some real proof.

 

Tracy, as for DeM, do you accept his whole tale the way he describes it or are you cherry picking?

Well, off the top of my head I don't remember "the whole tale." Let's do it this way-what part of his story don't you find credible.

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I posted the following last February. It bears repeating.


I've discovered that George de Mohrenschildt's testimony cannot be trusted. He took an incident completely unrelated to him, made himself a key player, and fabricated a dramatic story around it!

Mrs. Meller testified that Marina had gone to a filling station and called her on the phone, saying that she was leaving Lee and wanted to stay with her. Mrs. Meller told her to take a taxi to her place and that she could stay there for a while.

In contrast, George de Mohrenschildt testified that he skipped his usual tennis game and went to the Oswald residence instead, because of Lee's abuse. He forcibly removed Marina against Lee's wishes, with Lee making threats against him. He then drove Marina to the Meller residence. (You really should read de Mohrenschildt's story, below. It's incredible.)

IMO there is nothing in de Mohrenschildt's testimony that can be trusted. It should be thrown out altogether.

Here are the relevant sections in Mrs. Meller's and de Mohrenschildt's testimonies:

 

Mrs. Meller:

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962, after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. MELLER - Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call we and say that her husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the filling station and said the man - she did not have a penny of money, and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 8 weeks, maybe month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?" She said "in Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very. much space," I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said "Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or 10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no coat, no money, nothing.

 

George De Mohrenschildt:

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.  I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had then in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do things like that, and he said, "It is my business"--that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me.

And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection.

Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe I called them. I don't remember exactly. Anyway, they were ready to receive her.

And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things."

And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some time, you better behave."

I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police."

I felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other people's affairs, after all.

Well, he said, "I will get even with you."

I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I said, "I am going to take Marina anyway."

So after a little while he started--and I started carrying the things out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual.

After a little while he helped. me to carry the things out. He completely changed his mind.

Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable?

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. And we cleaned that house completely. We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded everything was taken out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've discovered that George de Mohrenschildt's testimony cannot be trusted. He took an incident completely unrelated to him, made himself a key player, and fabricated a dramatic story around it!


And then there is Alexander Kleinlerer's affidavit. His story is even more outrageous than George de Mohrenschildt's. Unfortunately I haven't seen testimony by any the other white Russians that would either corroborate or oppose what Kleinlerer said about Oswald.

However, it is worth noting that Kleinlerer's story is completely different from everybody else's. He claims he saw Oswald slap Marina... not once, but twice. Nobody else saw any slapping. He goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was and how badly he treated his wife. Nobody else does that, not even a little. In fact, everybody who was asked, including Marina, said that Oswald wasn't a violent person. (Yet Kleinlerer claimed that both he and Marina were afraid of him.)  The worse that the others said about Oswald was that he didn't socialize with them. Kleinlerer says that the others all disliked Oswald. I read most their testimonies and never got the impression Oswald was disliked.

Alexander Kleinlerer's affidavit is here.

 

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2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've discovered that George de Mohrenschildt's testimony cannot be trusted. He took an incident completely unrelated to him, made himself a key player, and fabricated a dramatic story around it!

What happened was that Marina left LHO and went to stay at Anna Meller's house. The date is uncertain but it was possibly on Monday, November 5, 1962. Probably the next Sunday the 11th, a meeting was arranged between Marina and LHO at the de Mohrenschildt's place. Marina did not want to go back with LHO and the De Mohrenschildts drove them to the Elsbeth apartment to get her things where the scene you mention occurred. This is all documented by Marina's biographer in Marina & Lee. So de Mohrenschildt was a key player in the incident. Now, you might say that McMillian can't be trusted because she is "CIA." But Marina, while she now believes in conspiracy, has not taken back anything in the book.

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:


And then there is Alexander Kleinlerer's affidavit. His story is even more outrageous than George de Mohrenschildt's. Unfortunately I haven't seen testimony by any the other white Russians that would either corroborate or oppose what Kleinlerer said about Oswald.

However, it is worth noting that Kleinlerer's story is completely different from everybody else's. He claims he saw Oswald slap Marina... not once, but twice. Nobody else saw any slapping. He goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was and how badly he treated his wife. Nobody else does that, not even a little. In fact, everybody who was asked, including Marina, said that Oswald wasn't a violent person. (Yet Kleinlerer claimed that both he and Marina were afraid of him.)  The worse that the others said about Oswald was that he didn't socialize with them. Kleinlerer says that the others all disliked Oswald. I read most their testimonies and never got the impression Oswald was disliked.

Alexander Kleinlerer's affidavit is here.

 

It is not surprising to me that Klienlerer was the only one to witness the abuse firsthand. LHO could hardly be expected to go around in public slapping Marina around-that was bound to attract attention. The abuse he witnessed occurred at the Hall's home indoors where no one else could see. On this occasion LHO lost his temper and slapped her. He wasn't worried about Klienlerer who was admittedly afraid of him. If Klienlerer said anything it was his word against LHO's.  But while only Klienlerer saw the abuse, several others including Marguerite saw the bruises. Marguerite confronted LHO who told her to mind her own business. Marina may have said LHO wasn't violent at one point, but the book Marina & Lee says otherwise. To sum up, plenty of evidence LHO abused Marina.

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6 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

It is not surprising to me that Klienlerer was the only one to witness the abuse firsthand. LHO could hardly be expected to go around in public slapping Marina around-that was bound to attract attention. The abuse he witnessed occurred at the Hall's home indoors where no one else could see. On this occasion LHO lost his temper and slapped her. He wasn't worried about Klienlerer who was admittedly afraid of him. If Klienlerer said anything it was his word against LHO's.  But while only Klienlerer saw the abuse, several others including Marguerite saw the bruises. Marguerite confronted LHO who told her to mind her own business. Marina may have said LHO wasn't violent at one point, but the book Marina & Lee says otherwise. To sum up, plenty of evidence LHO abused Marina.

Why do I get the feeling that PT has opened a school for the dissemination of unsubstantiated narratives, and that TP has been ettending said school?

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