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Sandy Larsen

What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

284 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

For the record (so I can find it again if need be) here is Mark Knight's summary that he posted on the Robert Charles-Dunne thread:

Mark Knight's Summary

  1. There were no reports made to police, PRIOR to Oswald's death, that Oswald beat his wife.
  2. There is only ONE person who actually reported to police that he saw, with his own eyes, Lee Oswald strike his wife with his hand.
  3. All the other reports to the FBI and to the Warren Commission that Lee Oswald beat his wife are therefore hearsay.
  4. Treating one's wife badly is not necessarily the same thing as beating one's wife, which is domestic assault.
     

Sorry Sandy, I was typing my comment when you posted and hadn't seen yours yet. ;)

I appreciate Mark Knight's summary there - makes sense to me. And I think it hits the nail on the head.

(Personally I would split point 3 in to two different categories - those that were '2nd hand witnesses' And those that were 3rd hand or more)

Regards

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I will be building and updating a summary of evidence against Lee Oswald in Post 2.

I will post here any changes I make in red so that everybody has a chance to review the changes. I invite feedback, as I want the summary to be accurate and well worded.

Detailed Summary of Incriminating Testimony

  • Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair." 

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Also in Post 2, I am also building a a table of contents of key posts. For example, I have a link to Robert Charles-Dunne's analysis.

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Here's the latest summary. The bullets without words mean that I am anticipating more incriminating witnesses. (It appears that there is just one more.)

 

Detailed Summary of Incriminating Testimony

  • Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair."
  •  
  •  
  • Those who saw the bruise, which Marina said was from bumping into the door when feeding the baby at night: Anna Meller

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7 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Like I said:  a tour de force.

It's nonsense it what it is.

You have a woman that states she was abused. You have her mother in-law who agrees with her. BTW, that mother-in-law normally makes every excuse in the world for her son.

You have a first-hand witness to the abuse (Kleinlerer) who makes two statements to it. That is pretty much all you would need to convict in a court of law.

"When Oswald came to move his wife, he slapped her in the face and caused her to go into another room crying."

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95646&search="kleinlerer"#relPageId=193&tab=page

"I entered the house. Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything."

The following is not physical abuse but it certainly is emotional abuse:

"I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a mere chattel, proceeded to vigorously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../testimony/kleinler.htm

You have de Mohrenschildt, who see the bruises and confronts LHO who then tacitly admits the abuse. You have others who see the bruises. You have an apartment manager who heard the fighting. So you have a first-hand witness, the statements of the victim and a mountain of circumstantial evidence. How much more do you need?

The argument that no one called the police is disingenuous. That was a very different time and people believed (especially in a conservative community) in minding their own business. The argument that Marina made excuses such as running into a door-we have never heard that before have we? The victim often makes excuses for the abuser.

Now, if you want to argue that Marina overstated the abuse after the fact for example in Marina & Lee, that is a reasonable position since we only have her word for those incidents. But there is no serious argument that she wasn't abused. Except that you folks need to show LHO was a non-violent, normal guy who was setup (or whatever theory you are pushing).

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BTW, isn't it interesting that the one instance where a witness said he saw Oswald slap his wife, that one was recorded in an FBI affidavit,  the witness did not testify before the commission, or in  a deposition before a counsel.  

And he added he got the feeling of "play acting".

Edited by James DiEugenio

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3 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, isn't it interesting that the one instance where a witness said he saw Oswald slap his wife, that one was recorded in an FBI affidavit,  the witness did not testify before the commission, or a deposition before a counsel.  

And he added he got the feeling of "play acting".

It's a sworn affidavit. He didn't specifically say what the "playacting" referred to.

Edited by W. Tracy Parnell

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BTW, another point about the White Russians, concerning Bouhe.

From Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, p. 206:  "Bouhe is the man who's name surfaced in Marina Oswald's testimony to Garrison's grand jury in an odd way.  Marina mentioned him  as one of her English tutors in Dallas.  Garrison asked if she knew that Bouhe lived a door down from Jack Ruby: that they knew each other , and shared a common swimming pool.  Marina said she did know that. Because right after the assassination, Bouhe came to visit her.  He told her that it was all just a coincidence that he happened to live next door to her husband's killer.  Bouhe was the "organization man" who kept the files for the White Russian community." 

I suppose that is nonsense also.

Bouhe:  You know Marina, we were trying to break you away from Lee, and we were great pals with George DeM and the Paines who actually did separate you from your husband at the time of the assassination, and who will now produce all the so-called evidence about MC which you know Oswald never went to, but the fact that I lived next door to the guy who then killed Oswald, now that is just a silly coincidence.  

BTW Tracy, when you are using George DeM as the fulcrum for your argument then you are so unconscious that you don't know you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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One last thing about Bouhe: one of the most fascinating pieces of evidence that was disguised by the WC and never pursued was the piece of wrapping paper that someone, somewhere was trying to send to Oswald via Ruth Paine just a day or so before the assassination.  If you recall, this ended up in the dead letter room of the nearby Dallas USPS building.  The police did everything they could to hide it away.  But so many people saw it at the post office that it became a topic of conversation at the coffee shop across the street.  Finally the FBI, several days after the fact, did one of their, shall we call it, less than rigorous inquiries--which, of course, never got close to the bottom of the episode.

But something that is possibly really interesting did surface.  In the DPD property clerk manifest, there is a notice addressed to Oswald dated the 20th of November--which may very well be for that paper wrap,stuck to the other side is a notice for George Bouhe, except it is for him at his address.  But it was found at the Paine's house during their search.

Before Tracy says this is more nonsense, all I am doing is presenting the facts.  What would a notice for Bouhe be doing at Ruth's glued to the back of one for Oswald?  And who attached them to each other?  And why?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95646&search="kleinlerer"#relPageId=193&tab=page

"I entered the house. Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything."

The following is not physical abuse but it certainly is emotional abuse:

"I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a mere chattel, proceeded to vigorously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked."


Tracy,

These reported incidences, both from one source, are so extreme that I am incline NOT to believe them. I mean, if Oswald was as bad as these accounts make out him to be, then surely there would be other similar accounts from other witnesses.

When I see testimony from other people describing Oswald's behavior being so extreme, then I will take this witness seriously.

So far we have only Marguerite's incriminating testimony. Presumably she saw Lee and Marina regularly. If so, and if Oswald was as bad as Kleinlerer paints him, then surely she would have witnessed a bruise more than once.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Updates to summary:

Detailed Summary of Incriminating Testimony

  • Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair."
     
  • Alexander Kleinlerer: Claimed to have seen Lee slap Marina twice in the face. In his affidavit he goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was, and how everybody in the Russian community disliked him. Also he badly he mistreated Marina. He has nothing good to say about Lee.

    This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration. Especially considering Kleinlerer's ties to people like George Bouhe and George de Mohrenschildt.

     
  • Those who saw the bruise, which Marina said was from bumping into the door when feeding the baby at night: Anna Meller

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48 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration. Especially considering Kleinlerer's ties to people like George Bouhe and George de Mohrenschildt.

So it's more about his ties to certain people than the fact you don't believe him?

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

One last thing about Bouhe: one of the most fascinating pieces of evidence that was disguised by the WC and never pursued was the piece of wrapping paper that someone, somewhere was trying to send to Oswald via Ruth Paine just a day or so before the assassination.  If you recall, this ended up in the dead letter room of the nearby Dallas USPS building.


I was curious about this wrapping paper, so I checked it out. I figured it might have something to do with the bag the Carcano rifle was supposedly wrapped in.

In Destiny Betrayed, Jim hypothesizes that the wrapping paper was sent to Oswald in order to get his fingerprints on it. Not knowing why the paper had been mailed to him, Oswald would have discarded it. Or if not, it would be found at the Paine residence when it was searched. And the authorities would then have it as evidence.

(I've read Destiny Betrayed, but had forgot about this.)

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17 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

So it's more about his ties to certain people than the fact you don't believe him?


I first read your quotes about the two incidences. To me they sounded out of character for Oswald and extreme. I figured others must have observed this side of Oswald if it were true.

Then I read more of what Kleinlerer wrote about Oswald, which is pretty much a hatchet job on him. I REALLY would require corroboration before I would believe it.

Then I read about Kleinlerer's apparently close ties with George Bouhe (Kleinlerer mentions Bouhe numerous times), and how Bouhe had lived next to Ruby AND whose USPS receipt was found in the Paine home attached to Oswald's receipt! The whole thing sounds suspicious. (Ruth Paine is clearly a CIA asset given that she got Oswald the Job at TSBD, so he could be set up.)

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