TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

[Jim Hargrove]

22 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

The one-and-only Oswald's weight at autopsy was 131 pounds, and his own mother said he never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life, yet the CIA headquarters cable you posted above has him at a Robert E. Webster-like 5'10" and 165 pounds. (Ya think maybe because FBI agent John Fain had sneakily attributed Webster's biometrics to Oswald in early 1960, and they in turn had been incorporated into Oswald's computerized CIA files by a Russia Division Counter-Espionage officer, Bill Bright, back in the day?  Hmmm?) 

 

Uh, Tommy, you are aware that on his 9/3/59 USMC medical report “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height is listed at 5’ 11” (which is 71 inches) and his weight as 150 lbs., right?
 

 

And you are aware that on his 10/12/59 Armed Forces Report of Transfer or Discharge “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height is also listed at 5’ 11” and his weight as 150 lbs., right?

 

No doubt you’ll explain this via the legendary prowess of JJ Angleton and his band of merry pranksters, boarding their barium meal time machines and heading back to USMC headquarters to fake all this stuff and eventually confuse John Armstrong and me.  LOL!

Isn’t it amazing that the same 5’ 11” height is listed on LHO’s 1959 passport, his 1963 passport, his 9/14/59 Selective Service Registration card, and many other places.  The public record contains nearly as many references to a 5” 11” Oswald as to a 5’  9” Oswald.  Almost sounds like two different fellows, eh?

Please explain to me how CI/SIG managed to fake all those documents.  If you can’t, I may have to assume that much of what you and others call deliberate CIA misinformation for “marked cards” are actually clear and obvious variations in the public record.

You can explain this, right?  I know I can.

Cat got your tongue?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Jim Hargrove
Bump for Tommy

[W. Tracy Parnell]

13 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And you are aware that on his 10/12/59 Armed Forces Report of Transfer or Discharge “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height is also listed at 5’ 11” and his weight as 150 lbs., right?

Are you aware that people can and do exaggerate their height? There is no photograph of LHO against a height chart showing that he was 5'11" tall.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

H&L howler #5, LHO spoke no Russian in Russia.

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/lho-spoke-no-russian-in-russia.html

[W. Tracy Parnell]

20 hours ago, David Josephs said:

You know Sandy, it's interesting you should say that:  "cases where the person identifies himself".  In most cases where there are conflicts showing Oswald being here and there at the same time...  many of these examples occur when Oswald is in Russia so the witnesses dates and even years are called into question since he couldn't possibly be in Russia and the US at the same time - unless someone was playing the Oswald part here...

Here are a few conflicts from the Russia time period.

Anna Lewis' video telling of meeting Oswald between Jan-Apr 1962, with Judy Baker in the room, and with multiple camera stops and no correction is the tip of the iceberg.  Any one instance alone may be a coincidence but when more and more tell a story of meeting LEE HARVEY OSWALD in the US while he's in Russia we might take notice.  Or maybe long time friends of LEE's mother seeing her in New Orleans while Marge is in Texas...

Another question to ask yourself is whether you believe Marita Lorenz's story... according to her "OSWALD" was in a safehouse in Miami in Sept 1960.

1961	3	17		Harvey meets Marina
1961	3	24		Hospital records show that Harvey "Alik" Oswald was admitted to the Fourth Clinical Hospital in Minsk at 10:00 am on T hursday, March 30, 1961. From this date we learn that Oswald and Marina probably met the previous Friday, March 24, at the Palace of Trade Unions (instead of March 4th or 17th as claimed by Marina)
1961	3	25		Priscilla Johnson wrote in her book, "Marina and Lee," that Oswald and Marina met on March 17, 1961 and a few days later, on March 25, she received a call to visit him at the hospital because he was sick. But Marina could not have  received such a call from Oswald on March 25, because he has not admitted to the hospital until March 30.
1961	4	10		NOTE: The date of their meeting and the phone call from Oswald in the hospital may seem trivial, except when one realizes that two weeks later (April 30), without every having a single date or being alone together, these two cold-war spies agreed to marry.

Mr. Fithian. This was prior to the Bay of Pigs.
Mrs. Lorenz. Yes.
Mr. Fithian. It was?
Mrs. Lorenz. April 1961 was the Bay of Pigs.
Mr. Fithian. And you are sure you saw him (LEE) before April 1961?
Mrs. Lorenz. Yes, because Alex (Rorke) took the pictures.

Mr. Fithian. "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of Lee Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960.
Marita Lorenz. "Yes."

-----

While Harvey Oswald was still living in Minsk with his wife and daughter, Lee
Oswald apparently applied for work at the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth and was given a series of General Aptitude Test Batteries (GATB tests). NOTE: In October 1962 counselors at the TEC office in Dallas reviewed Lee Oswald's file from Fort Worth and wrote his GATB test scores from April 1962 under the heading "Test Results (Volume XIX, p. 399)." 62-03

-----

Lynn Davis Curry lived in Augusta, Georgia and drove a cab for the Dixie Cab
Company in the early 1960's. During the month of November 1962 Curry picked up a white male at the intersection of 8th Street and Broad who was about twenty five years old and wearing a black jacket. T he young man introduced himself as "Lee Oswald" and then began to talk about himself. Oswald told Curry that he served in the Marine Corps, traveled to Russia, married a Russian girl, supported Fidel Castro , and was traveling to New Orleans. Curry let the man off at the corner of 5th and Watkins Street where his car was parked. Before leaving the cab the young man insisted that Curry write down his name, "Lee Oswald," and said that Curry would be hearing his name again in the future. Curry wrote the name "Lee Oswald" on his daily trip sheet and  remembered his name on November 22, 1963.

------

Sheriff Thompson, of Monroe County (Key West), Florida, recalled that "Lee Harvey Oswald" fueled up his boat in Key West shortly after the Bay of Pigs (April '61, They return to USA in June 1962 ). Oswald didn't have the funds to pay for the fuel and telephoned someone in Dallas, Texas. Within two hours a man named "Ruben" arrived and paid for the fuel.136  William Huffman was the attendant on duty when Lee Oswald, accompanied by 4 or 5 Cubans, docked at the Sands Marine Fueling Station at Stock Island, Key West, Florida in a 43-foot Chris Craft diesel boat.  

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=11349&relPageId=2 

The real Marguerite Oswald, the tall, nice-looking mother of John, Robert and Lee Harvey, had been living in New Orleans for the past year where she was employed in her usual occupation of selling clothes. Mrs. Logan Magruder, a resident of Covington, Louisiana who had known her since the 1940's, saw Marguerite working in the ladies lingerie department at Krieger's Department Store and spoke with her. 53 Mrs. Oris Duane, who had known Marguerite Oswald since the 1940's, told the FBI that Marguerite Oswald visited her at Lady Oris Hosiery in 1960. Mrs. Oswald told her that she was working for Goldrings's Department Store on Canal Street selling dresses on the second floor." 54

MO Moves again  On September 1, (1960) the short, dumpy, heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" impostor moved from 1407 8th Avenue in Fort Worth to Boyd, Texas, a small community 35 miles northwest of Fort Worth. This was the community in which Robert Oswald's wife previously lived and in which her parents owned a farm. "Marguerite" opened an account with the Continental State Bank on September 22nd and began operating a small variety shop on Main Street where she sold thread and fabrics throughout the remainder of 1960.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672#relPageId=275&tab=page

 

 

 

Parker responds here:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1378-the-fez-and-reality-get-an-introduction

[Ray Mitcham]

50 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Are you aware that people can and do exaggerate their height? There is no photograph of LHO against a height chart showing that he was 5'11" tall.

When would a  Armed Forces Report of Transfer or Discharge depend on what the guy said?

Whenever I have been measured and weighed for an official form it was always done for me.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

38 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

When would a  Armed Forces Report of Transfer or Discharge depend on what the guy said?

Whenever I have been measured and weighed for an official form it was always done for me.

That's a fair point, but footwear could also account for variances in height as could a simple mistake.

[David Josephs]

footwear?  lol

You boys will pull just about anything out of your ....

You and Parker's indictment of the Marine's record keeping is a joke filled excuse that you can't reconcile... whatever.

71" = 5'11"    68" = 5'8"   

Oswald enters the Marines at 5'8" 135 lbs and leaves 5'11" 150 lbs..  makes sense as he goes from age 17 to 20...

fast forward 4 years... CE3002, Oswald's autopsy report... and the Rose Autopsy sheet state this is a 5'9" man estimated to weigh 150 (although we both know it was closer to 135).

Explain please, without claiming the Marines took HIS word for all his discharge stats, (they actually measured and weighed the man as everyone who has ever been in the armed forces knows)...

...How does a man lose 2 inches from age 20 to 24?  you honestly think the Marines did not weigh and measure them in bare feet and in their skivvies ?  or do you think the 5'11" measurement was part of the marked card plans of Angleton 5 years before the fact and he never was that tall? 

The second memo went directly to the Mexico City station itself, with a different description of “Lee Henry Oswald” as “5 foot 10, 165 pounds” that matched the Robert Wesbster-like description of Oswald used by Egerter and the FBI for molehunting purposes during Oswald’s days in the Soviet Union. (A CIA note during the seventies confirms that the Agency knew there was confusion in identifying the two men, although I haven't yet found the full memo itself.) -Simpich

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs

[W. Tracy Parnell]

David,

Fortunately for the H&L people discrepancies exist in the official record of Oswald. Professional investigators (as opposed to amateur speculators) understand this fact. The best evidence (photos against a height chart, exhumation etc.) is LHO was 5'9" tall. Occam's razor says the simplest explanation is likely correct and that is the times that show him at a height we know he was not are incorrect for whatever reason.  John Armstrong's razor states exactly the opposite in this case and regarding the theory as a whole-the most complex explanation is the best.

Edited March 17, 2017 by W. Tracy Parnell

[Thomas Graves]

5 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Are you aware that people can and do exaggerate their height? There is no photograph of LHO against a height chart showing that he was 5'11" tall.

Tracy,

I agree.  It's not that hard to kinda stand on your tippy toes during the measurement.  Just have to be kinda sneaky about it, and do it subtly.  I did it once, just for the heck of it, to make me appear to be 6' 6", 230 pounds instead of my true, dwarf-like 6' 4 3/4" , 230 pounds.

Regardless, so much false biographical information was intentionally put into the-one-and-only Oswald's (i.e. Lee Harvey Oswald) files over the years, I wonder if misrepresenting his true 5' 9.5" height as 5' 11" might be another example?

--  Tommy

Edited March 17, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 12:01 PM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

David,

Fortunately for the H&L people discrepancies exist in the official record of Oswald. Professional investigators (as opposed to amateur speculators) understand this fact. The best evidence (photos against a height chart, exhumation etc.) is LHO was 5'9" tall. Occam's razor says the simplest explanation is likely correct and that is the times that show him at a height we know he was not are incorrect for whatever reason.  John Armstrong's razor states exactly the opposite in this case and regarding the theory as a whole-the most complex explanation is the best.

yes Tracy, Harvey was 5'9".   And this is the in-depth rebuttal of the TEC and Lorenz?

From PARKER:

First witness cited - Marita Lorenz.  I think that's all I need to say on that witness.
------------------
From the records - the Fez reverts to the TEC records showing Oswald took tests at Fort Worth in April '62 - impossible since he never returned until June. This has been discredited already on the Ed Forum. It was a simple clerical error and corrected in those same records.

just a simple error...  so show us the correction...  if you're talking about the mis-matched back of this application with handwriting that matches nothing else on the form which states "DATE in Fort Worth June 1962" 

 

And once again we find two FBI exhibits which are supposed to match, only matching at the top and not matching on the bottom...  Who wrote the comment Tracy? and why don't dups of the same exhibit match? you can go ask Parker.. we'll wait.

 

Moving on now to Curry...  This is where you and Parker and I split.  You and he will take any blank piece of paper with reference to the FBI as COLD HARD FACT...  so if there was another mention of Oswald in New Orleans between Feb and Mar 1963 from this same report, can we take that as another COLD HARD FACT?

 

 

SV T-1 observes someone he claims resembles Oswald between Feb 15 and Mar 15 1963...

Where was Oswald living at this time Tracy? 

 

 

 

When a witness states "He told me his name was Lee Oswald", and then confirms that the person was the man Ruby killed - eg the man they saw on TV...  reliable?

 

Well look at that...  the FBI kicks into SOP mode and begins the process of discrediting the witness...

Mental problems remains a favorite of theirs...  if you go to the rest of the report Curry states that this person insisted that he write his name down, Lee Oswald...  and of course original documents like trip sheets NEVER get altered in the possession of the FBI... would you like a few examples or are you familiar?

PARKER:  Third witness: Sheriff Thompson of Monroe County, Florida. This time the Fez helpfully provides a link to his evidence. But guess what? The document doesn't mention anything about any Sheriff Thompson - what it describes is the effort to get to the bottom of local rumors about Oswald refueling a boat in 61. All the hallmarks of an urban myth here.

 

I am talking about Sheriff Thompson's statements.  TRACY, where in WCD953 as offered by Parker, does it offer the Sheriff's statement?

The footnote for SHERIFF THOMPSON (as opposed to "Resident") is 136 Report of John A. Marshall, Secret Service 2/5/64.

It's not there, so why is Parker using yet a different person's account of HUFFMAN.  Who is JAMES STEVENS who is relaying 2nd hand info from his wife who heard a rumor...   Again Tracy, what does this response have to do with Sheriff THOMPSON and do you even bother reading the sources you assume provides a rebuttal, or just copy past and hope?

 

So that's the full extent of the "rebuttal" ??  

"It's obvious",  "clerical error", and a report having nothing to do with the person giving the info...

Yup, that's Parker...

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by David Josephs

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

 "[...]  Harvey was 5'9".  [...]"

Dear Counselor,

The-one-and-only Oswald (i.e. Lee Harvey Oswald) was 5' 9 1/2", actually.

Like most young men, Lee Harvey Oswald may very well have exaggerated his "size" from time-to-time.  (LOL)

At least as regards his height.   (No need to prevaricate about his weight after he joined the Marine Corps and started doin' all them pushups an' sit ups, and eatin' all them meat 'n taters!)

And then, of course, if-and-when said undersized young men are unlucky enough to become part of a high-stakes "marked card" / "barium meal" Cold War Era "mole hunt," things really get weird, don't they.

Counselor?

--  Tommy

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/16/2017 at 1:10 PM, David Josephs said:

While Harvey Oswald was still living in Minsk with his wife and daughter, Lee
Oswald apparently applied for work at the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth and was given a series of General Aptitude Test Batteries (GATB tests). NOTE: In October 1962 counselors at the TEC office in Dallas reviewed Lee Oswald's file from Fort Worth and wrote his GATB test scores from April 1962 under the heading "Test Results (Volume XIX, p. 399)." 62-03

David,

If I understand correctly, what you are showing is a snippet of the October 1962 TEC application in Dallas. And you are saying it was copied from an earlier TEC application in Fort Worth. Is that right?

If so, then the April 1962 date should also be on the Fort Worth TEC application. Do you have a copy of that application?

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

David,

If I understand correctly, what you are showing is a snippet of the October 1962 TEC application in Dallas. And you are saying it was copied from an earlier TEC application in Fort Worth. Is that right?

If so, then the April 1962 date should also be on the Fort Worth TEC application. Do you have a copy of that application?

 

I believe the Dear Counselor (and a few others) and I went all over this before you joined a little more than a year ago, Sandy.

If DC and I get "into it" again on this thread, it's bound to become a huge time-wasting, bottomless pit, again.

Have you tried using the "search" function to find the old thread(s) on it?

Just a suggestion.

--  Tommy

[David Josephs]

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:55 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

David,

If I understand correctly, what you are showing is a snippet of the October 1962 TEC application in Dallas. And you are saying it was copied from an earlier TEC application in Fort Worth. Is that right?

If so, then the April 1962 date should also be on the Fort Worth TEC application. Do you have a copy of that application?

 

Hi Sandy.... 

Cunningham exhibit 2 and 2a...  I posted it above with the overlay showing they don't match although they should.

Taking another close look at these docs I am struck by a thought which in turn makes the 4/62 date less likely

Cunningham #2 shows a box with circled numbers on it..  if appears he either got or missed 4/22, there are 4 lines and 18 circles of the 22 numbers if you drop the 0.  While at the same time that looks more like a "6" than a 2 when you look at all the other 6's.

And so it goes as one dives deep into this case... but yes, this - to me - is not as concrete a "Lee" reference as I had once thought

Jim H?  I'll have to talk to John about it....  wouldn't be the first thing we disagreed about.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2018 by David Josephs

[David Josephs]

28 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

David,

If I understand correctly, what you are showing is a snippet of the October 1962 TEC application in Dallas. And you are saying it was copied from an earlier TEC application in Fort Worth. Is that right?

If so, then the April 1962 date should also be on the Fort Worth TEC application. Do you have a copy of that application?

 

I guess I didn't really answer... no, I have not seen the Ft Worth records... and it appears they come from a phone call... so I assume it was read off of some record... 

She says 23 records, which there are, and he only missed 4... so 4/22 is not exactly what she is saying...  reading her testimony we simply do not know the date of the Ft Worth test...

I see it says June 1962, yet nowhere in Cunningham's testimony does she mention June 1962.  Do we believe she wrote it?
If we look at her detailed affidavit where she specifically calls out her handwriting on the front and back of the TEC card we get:

4. As it appears from the entries in my hand on the reverse side of Cunningham Exhibit No. 4, I recorded the fact that I obtained Oswald's "General Aptitude Test" battery results from the Fort Worth office of the Texas Employment Commission. I concluded after examining the GATB obtained from the Fort Worth office and after interviewing Oswald that because he was in great financial need for immediate employment, that I should classify him for clerical work and I noted on the face of the card the proper clerical code, being 1-X 4.9. I also recorded the fact that on October 11, 1962, Oswald was referred to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Printing Company as a photo-print trainee and that Oswald was enthusiastic about the possibility of his being employed. I also recorded the fact that Oswald reported on October 15, 1962, that he had obtained the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall position and that he was pleased.

"DATE in Ft Worth June 1962" is plain as day... why do you supposed she doesn't mention it? 

-----

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you please interpret that for me? What the tests indicate? 
Now, you are interpreting here the tests made by the Fort Worth District office, are you? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. And you obtained those results by communicating with the Fort Worth office? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. 
Mr. JENNER. Either on or prior to October 10, 1962? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Subsequent to 10-10-62. 

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. You will see that if I copied correctly, the entries on the face of the application card are those which are circled on the test record, and are the ones that he had potential in those patterns--"Jobs for occupational patterns." 
Mr. JENNER. And in which did he have potential and which were indicated as deficiencies or weaknesses, if any? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Of the 23 patterns, then being used by the employment service, there were only three in which he did not meet the minimum requirements. 
Mr. JENNER. And those three? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Or 4, 1, 3, 5, and 20. 
Mr. JENNER. You have just called off numbers that are encircled on the exhibit "Individual Aptitude Profile"? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; they are struck off. 
Mr. JENNER. And they are stricken off for what reason? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Because the applicant's scores did not meet the minimum standards to qualify for those occupational aptitude patterns. 

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Self-contained, able, perhaps not giving any more information than he was asked for, entirely presentable as far as grooming and appearance was concerned; there was nothing at all that I recall that was argumentative in my contacts with him. The general appearance was of, and what these records indicate to me, was of a young applicant with capability, not any sound or extensive work experience, the longest period of the training and experience was in the Marine Corps---- 
Mr. JENNER. And a limited education? 
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. A limited education, but he had done something about it before he came to me or he wouldn't have a high school equivalency certificate, if he did have. At least, I had no reason to question that he did not have, after I got the test results from the Fort Worth office.