TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

[George Sawtelle]

 Thomas G

There is only one Oswald.

Well, then explain 5 witnesses saying they saw Oswald walk down the grassy knoll from the back of the TSBD and get into a rambler minutes after the assassination. One witness may have messed up but five? The Oswald who was killed by Ruby was on his way to Beckley at this time.

There had to have been another person who was a dead ringer for the Oswald who was killed by Ruby. There is no other explanation. 

How does one explain the behavior of the Oswald who was killed by Ruby not being in a hurry to leave the scene of the crime. He wasn´t acting like a man who was running away after killing someone. He was taking his sweet time. How many killers would leave the scene of a crime by taking a bus? And why should he worry, he was downstairs near the entrance to the TSBD during the shooting and had no idea that he would be arrested for killing JFK.

Armstrong is correct. There were two Oswalds. The shorter Oswald weighed less than his heavier set double. It´s your perogative to not believe everything Armstrong says about the two Oswalds, but the evidence points to two Oswalds. 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Identity Tricks are Common in Spy Games

 

Cuban Intelligence’s DeLaguardia Brothers
 

The book “Castro’s Final Hour” included a photograph of Antonio and Patricio DeLaGuardia, top spies for Cuba during the 1960s, ‘70s, and ‘80s.  They were identical twins, useful, among other ways, for providing an alibi when one or the other got in trouble.

 

Russian Spy Gordon Lonsdale/Konon Molody
 

 

The use of impostors is common in spycraft.  A Russian named Konon Molody, born in Moscow in 1922, was sent to Berkley, California at the age of seven to learn English and develop familiarity with American customs.  Ten years later, he returned to the USSR, was commissioned in the Soviet Navy, and started espionage training.

By 1954, Molody sailed to Canada with a birth certificate and other paperwork for a Canadian named  Gordon Arnold Lonsdale who had died c. 1943.  As “Gordon Lonsdale,” Molody had a significant career as a Soviet spy, including interactions with Rudolph Abel in the U.S. and with the British military.  He was convicted of espionage in London in 1961.

 

Mossad officer Michael Ross
 

 

Much more recently, a fellow named Michael Ross was born in British Columbia in 1961. He traveled to Israel in 1982 where he eventually married an Israeli woman and joined the Mossad.  According to the Canadian daily National Post (1/14/12), “Over the next 14 years, the Canadian-Israeli assumed six different identities — one cover lasted a full seven years — and led a life wildly different from the one his family believed true so he could gather intelligence and seduce defectors.”

 

German Spy Mata Hari

 

 

I tried quickly to confirm this online and couldn’t, but there was a television program from some years back that claimed the famed Dutch exotic dancer and German spy with the stage name Mata Hari used stage doubles for her dancing shows so that she could undertake other activities.

I believe one of Allen Dulles’s books extols the usefulness of doubles in spycraft, and he should know.  Spy games with similarities to the Harvey and Lee scenario are really quite easy to find.

--Thanks to T.K. for this suggestion.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Michael Walton]

Yes, Jim, I can see doubles being useful in spycraft. But there was absolutely no point for Oswald to have a double.  He was too low-level, just a guy who spoke Russian, was sent into Russia to sniff around (most probably to try to find a mole), got married, had a kid, was let back into the U.S. (with ease during the height of the Cold War), then like a chess piece, was handled by numerous people (Banister in NO to get him to look like a Communist; and the White Russians).

Somewhere along the way, the assassination was planned (probably shortly after the CMC) and they had a perfect fall guy.  They got him to pose for the BY photos (or they were faked); he was down in NO to look like a Communist; and so forth. The motorcade route was planned so Paine got him the job at the book building. And here we are today.

I'll take his word for it.  As he said "I'm only here because I lived in Russia" and "I'm a patsy." And he also said that the BY photos were faked and he can show how later. It's why he reacted violently in the theater.  He was not stupid and knew as the day went on he was taking the fall for it; hence, his statements in the hallway.  Thankfully, it was recorded for posterity.

The mastoid surgery on his head and the exhumation proved once and for all there was only one Lee H. Oswald. He was malnourished as a kid, went into the military, bulked up a little (probably had a decent diet, more than he ever did while living with his one and only mother Marge), got out of the military, went on to Russia and back and so forth.

People do change in bulk and appearance, Jim. The mugshot Oswald and the screaming at the theater Oswald are the same person but they actually look different (please for the love of god do not say even here it's two different ones!). It's lighting, angles, expressions, and so on.

In the large scheme of things, the fairy tale story of two of them does not make any sense when related to the JFK murder.

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

The mastoid surgery on his head and the exhumation proved once and for all there was only one Lee H. Oswald.

Really, just like the Magic Money Order proved “Lee Harvey Oswald” bought the Magic Carcano that fired the Magic Bullet that hit Kennedy and Connally, eh?  Do you seriously believe an exhumation of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” remains was done without involving the U.S. Government?  Or the subsequent long-delayed report?

Or, for that matter, do you honestly believe that an Agency that deliberately poisoned thousands of Americans with LSD just to see what would happen would hesitate to give a little war orphan an unnecessary mastoidectomy just so his health records would match the American kid whose identity he was about to share for an intelligence operation involving a Mission to Moscow? 

[Jim Hargrove]

5 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

 Thomas G

There is only one Oswald.

Well, then explain 5 witnesses saying they saw Oswald walk down the grassy knoll from the back of the TSBD and get into a rambler minutes after the assassination. One witness may have messed up but five? The Oswald who was killed by Ruby was on his way to Beckley at this time.

There had to have been another person who was a dead ringer for the Oswald who was killed by Ruby. There is no other explanation. 

How does one explain the behavior of the Oswald who was killed by Ruby not being in a hurry to leave the scene of the crime. He wasn´t acting like a man who was running away after killing someone. He was taking his sweet time. How many killers would leave the scene of a crime by taking a bus? And why should he worry, he was downstairs near the entrance to the TSBD during the shooting and had no idea that he would be arrested for killing JFK.

Armstrong is correct. There were two Oswalds. The shorter Oswald weighed less than his heavier set double. It´s your perogative to not believe everything Armstrong says about the two Oswalds, but the evidence points to two Oswalds. 

 

That’s an excellent point, Mr. Sawtelle.  There are some here who will argue that “Oswald” never got on the bus or taxi, but they have more difficulty explaining how “Oswald’s" transfer led so quickly to McWatters' bus. And they have a harder time explaining the much more solid identification, as you would expect, from the taxi driver.  They would also have to explain why an innocent “Oswald” would have to make such an obvious escape involving the Nash Rambler using an accomplice and a means he didn’t ordinarily use. 

Actually, the "Oswald" who got into the Nash Rambler was making an escape.  He had just spent weeks framing Harvey Oswald for the assassination.  Minutes earlier, he had been parading around on the 6th floor with a big rifle so all those inmates could see him.  Now, he was running for his life, but trying not to attract attention.  He sure needed a ride from someone.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

 Thomas G

There is only one Oswald.

Well, then explain 5 witnesses saying they saw Oswald walk down the grassy knoll from the back of the TSBD and get into a rambler minutes after the assassination. One witness may have messed up but five? The Oswald who was killed by Ruby was on his way to Beckley at this time.

There had to have been another person who was a dead ringer for the Oswald who was killed by Ruby. There is no other explanation. 

How does one explain the behavior of the Oswald who was killed by Ruby not being in a hurry to leave the scene of the crime. He wasn´t acting like a man who was running away after killing someone. He was taking his sweet time. How many killers would leave the scene of a crime by taking a bus? And why should he worry, he was downstairs near the entrance to the TSBD during the shooting and had no idea that he would be arrested for killing JFK.

Armstrong is correct. There were two Oswalds. The shorter Oswald weighed less than his heavier set double. It´s your perogative to not believe everything Armstrong says about the two Oswalds, but the evidence points to two Oswalds. 

 

Dear George,

I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald may have been impersonated on a short-term basis from time to time, including the time Craig saw someone who strongly resembled Oswald get into the Rambler Station Wagon and "escape".

That's very different, however, from alleging that two boys from two different families were picked, when they were adolescents, by the CIA in order to eventually become very (somehow) similar-looking, Agency-controlled and / or manipulated "doppelgangers" some ten years later.

--  Tommy  :sun.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Clark]

22 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear George,

I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald may have been impersonated on a short-term basis from time to time, including the time Craig saw someone who strongly resembled Oswald get into the Rambler Station Wagon and "escape".

That's very different, however, from alleging that two boys from two different families were picked, when they were adolescents, by the CIA in order to eventually become very similar-looking, Agency-controlled and / or manipulated "doppelgangers" some ten years later.

--  Tommy  :sun.

Dear Tommy, 

That is well put. It is also a concise and collegiately offered distinction that opens a dialogue that, I believe, needs to be broached.

Cheers,

Michael

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I'm amazed, too, that Sandy Larsen, I guess with a straight face, continues to rub his chin and say, "Hmm, what about this...or that?"

The reason for that, Michael, is that Jim Hargrove's arguments are beating the hell out of all his opponents' arguments.* (For a moment there I thought that the opposition was gaining ground on the height issue. But Hargrove just came back with yet another winning argument.)

The only argument the opposition has won was the one by Tommy, where he found the correct date for the Fort Worth GATB test. That was a slam dunk.

If Hargrove's/Armstrong's opponents want any credibility they are going to have to do what Tommy did and produce viable evidence against  the evidence Hargrove is producing. They didn't even try with the Stripling/Beauregard school record conflict... probably because there is no reasonable explanation. (I was the only person who gave it a shot.) Oh, they said that it's a school record transfer problem. But they didn't explain how a credit transfer could result in the conflict we see. They just said "credit transfer problem" and waved the problem away. What a cop out! (I was also the only person who tried to make that explanation work.)

You and the others say that the Harvey & Lee theory is too fantastic to be real. I probably would have said the same a couple years ago, before I read about Operation Northwoods; before I discovered that there were actually recommendations from generals that the U.S. attack the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons; before I read about the secret CIA experiments with LSD against prisoners, military personnel, and even U.S. civilians. (I'll bet that the U.S. government also performed nuclear radiation experiments against its citizens.)

I think it is entirely possible for the CIA to have concocted plans like the Harvey & Lee concept, that today seem crazy to uninformed people. Which is why I am willing to consider John Armstrong's evidence.

*Note that I have to catch up on some of David Joseph's arguments still.

 

[George Sawtelle]

Thomas G

You mention Craig, but what about the other four witnesses? They can´t all be wrong. 

Like I said in my post above it´s your perogative to disregard Armstrong´s argument for two Oswalds. But you can´t get around the fact that there were two Oswalds running around Dealey Plaza the day JFK was killed.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

People do change in bulk and appearance, Jim.

And on occasion, people do attend two schools simultaneously. And have two different heights simultaneously. And so on.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

44 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Dear Tommy, 

That is well put. It is also a concise and collegiately offered distinction that opens a dialogue that, I believe, needs to be broached.

Cheers,

Michael

Thanks, mate.

I couldn't put it any more eloquently. 

(lol)

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

41 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

You mention Craig, but what about the other four witnesses? They can´t all be wrong. 

Like I said in my post above it´s your perogative to disregard Armstrong´s argument for two Oswalds. But you can´t get around the fact that there were two Oswalds running around Dealey Plaza the day JFK was killed.

Dear George,

If I agree that Craig saw an Oswald lookalike acting suspiciously after the assassination, how does that preclude my believing that four other people may have seen the same person acting suspiciously (or not) in Dallas that day?

But more importantly, why does that person have to have been involved in some improbable. very long-term CIA-run doppelganger project?

--  Tommy  

Edited March 20, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

[...]

German Spy Mata Hari

[...]

I believe one of Allen Dulles’s books extols the usefulness of doubles in spycraft, and he should know.  Spy games with similarities to the Harvey and Lee scenario are really quite easy to find.

--Thanks to T.K. for this suggestion.

"Dear James"

You've slammed some really nice globs of steaming hot spaghetti against the wall this time (especially the delicious Mata Hari one), but unfortunately, none of them "stick" because the examples you've chosen are not comparable to what you claim to have happened in the "Harvey And Lee And The Two Marguerites Project," i.e. two unrelated adolescent boys (with, by definition, two different mothers), chosen by the CIA to somehow grow up looking nearly identical, facially, so that they can participate, one wittingly, the other not, whenever their services are eventually needed in some doppelganger-based "black op" once they've grown up, in this case some ten years down the road.

--  Tommy

PS  As regards Dulles' possible use of "doubles," one can only assume that he was referring either to identical twins or to people who were already sufficiently similar-looking as adults.

D'oh.

Edited March 20, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[George Sawtelle]

Thomas G

The use of two Oswalds narrows down the number of entities that could have plotted the assassination. That is important.

Forget about where the two Oswalds came from or how they just happened to be in Dealey Plaza, or if Armstrong is right or wrong.  

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

The use of two Oswalds narrows down the number of entities that could have plotted the assassination. That is important.

Forget about where the two Oswalds came from or how they just happened to be in Dealey Plaza, or if Armstrong is right or wrong.  

Dear George,

The problem with "Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites" is that it: 1 ) lures "newbies" into a bottomless rabbit hole of paranoiac speculation," 2 ) confounds "marked card" / "barium meal" intentional misinformation in declassified counterintelligence-based documents with "evidence" of a very long-term doppelganger project, and 3 ) encourages over-the-top conspiracy theory thinking and "attitude" in our society, imho.

--  Tommy

Edited March 20, 2017 by Thomas Graves
Reason for edit: The Agency made me do it. At first I thought it was just the Devil, again.