Jim Hargrove

TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

558 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Quoting from the article:

HARVEY and LEE often attended the same schools, were both in the Marine Corps, and on occasion had the same friends, again at slightly different times.

When Harvey and Lee attended the same school, or had the same friends, how were their names handled? Was one actually in the school records as Harvey Oswald and the other Lee Oswald? And did the friends know one as Harvey and the other as Lee?

In the military, especially Marine Corps unit diaries (and other records as well) “Oswald Lee H. ” can be found in all sorts of conflicting records.  Without looking through them all, I’m sure there are some variants, but you can really trace these two different Oswalds through the classes they took and the different soldiers they lived and worked with.  As an earlier example, both Oswalds were in the 8th grade at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans at the start of 1954, though later in the year Harvey moved to Fort Worth and attended Stripling School while Lee stayed at Beauregard.

Beauregard was a good sized school, and LEE’s homeroom was on the third floor of the building while Harvey’s was in a room that doubled as the school cafeteria in the basement.  IMS, Harvey’s homeroom teacher, Myra DaRouse remembered that he preferred to be called Harvey, although I think he used the same full name.  I often think of Russian-speaking Harvey as having just half a life.  Time and again he was briefly settled into experiences similar to American-born LEE, and then removed, perhaps before the name similarities would create notice.  I think it is  quite possible for kids in a large school to have identical or nearly identical names and not be given much notice, at least for a while.
 

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You can’t just look at pictures by themselves to determine whether there were two Marguerite Oswalds and two LHOs.  You have to look at all the evidence.  As one example….

According to the Warren Commission, in the fall of 1954 LEE Harvey Oswald was attending Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  During that time LEE rather famously got into a fight with Beauregard schoolmate John Neumeyer and probably lost a tooth.  LEE’s mother, the real Marguerite Oswald, at the time was living at 1454 St. Mary's St. in New Orleans, not far from Beauregard School.

What the Warren Commission didn’t report (other than neglecting to bury a brief statement by Robert Oswald during his testimony) was that, at the same time during the same school semester,  Lee HARVEY Oswald was attending Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth, Texas.  His caretaker/mother, the Marguerite Oswald impostor, was living at 2200 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling School.  Aware that Harvey Oswald’s Stripling school attendance threatened to expose the existence of an “Oswald Project” involving the two children, Hoover dispatched agents to Stripling within hours of the assassination to confiscate Harvey’s school records.  The agents were met by assistant principal Frank Kudlaty, who handed over the records, which disappeared while in FBI hands. See Frank's YouTube interview:

Warren Commission loyalists and/or Harvey and Lee critics such as Tracy Parnell want you to believe that Lee HARVEY Oswald never attended Stripling, some going so far as to suggest that the late JFK researcher Jack White somehow got Frank Kudlaty to make bogus claims about Oswald’s Stripling records.  But these critics seemingly don’t want you to know how much other evidence exists showing that HARVEY Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas while LEE Oswald was at Beauregard School in Louisiana.an

During research in the 1990s, John Armstrong located a number of former Stripling teachers and students who remembered that Oswald had attended the school.  One was gym teacher Mark Summers, who began his work at Stripling in September 1950, the year after Robert Oswald graduated from Stripling.  He remembered that Lee HARVEY Oswald was in one of his gym classes, though he remembered little else about him.   Classmates Doug Gann, Jackie and Bobby Pitts, and Fran Schubert also remembered LHO at Stripling. See Fran's YouTube interview.

At least one educator in Fort Worth told John Armstrong that it was “common knowledge” that LHO attended Stripling School in the 1950s.  In late October 1959, when his so-called brother “defected,” Robert Oswald told the Fort Worth Star Telegraph that LHO had attended Stripling School.  He said the same thing to the same paper in June 1962, at the time of LHO's repatriation.  And, of course, Robert testified that his “brother” attended Stripling, a remark totally ignored by WC lawyers. 

Bear in mind that from both before and after the entire fall semester starting in September 1954, the Warren Commission said LHO and his mother lived at 1454 St. Mary’s St. in New Orleans.  No wonder WC loyalists work so hard to discredit the simple fact that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas at the same time!  Here’s the 10/31/59 Fort Worth Stat Telegraph article, hard to find online:

   
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/6s62u2kgus4x6n2/Stripling_1959.jpg?dl=0

Edit: Corrected the name of the guy LEE Oswald fought at Beauregard School  to John Neumeyer.  Thanks to Alistair and Sandy.

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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Jim,

Quoting the article:

Pic said, "the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 [Thanksgiving] was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous [in New York City]."


But isn't it true that the Oswald he left was Lee, and the Oswald he came back to was also Lee? And that the quote above is just referring to a change in attitude on Lee's part?

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"....LEE Oswald became friends with Ed Voebel (who was also friends with HARVEY Oswald a year earlier)...."


Armstrong should have contacted Ed Voebel and asked him about his two friends, both named Lee Harvey Oswald!

Is Ed Voebel still alive?

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49 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

According to the Warren Commission, in the fall of 1954 LEE Harvey Oswald was attending Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  During that time LEE rather famously got into a fight with Beauregard schoolmate Ed Voebel and probably lost a tooth. 

Yet, from the testimony of Voebel...

Quote

Mr. VOEBEL. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee had a fight with a couple of boys.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know their names?
Mr. VOEBEL. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike.
Mr. JENNER. John and Mike?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They were classmates?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see, if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the street in the direction naturally in which I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a protracted fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. Protracted?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did it keep going on?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run them off of one block, they would go on to the next.
Mr. JENNER. That was fisticuffs; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they about the same age?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oswald and John?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know; I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. How about size?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what caused the fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't. I don't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why, were you curious?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. The fight traveled my route home.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the street?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.
Mr. JENNER. Whose mouth?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mike Neumeyer.
Mr. JENNER. The little boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the boy might have hit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, and Oswald I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.
Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help him.
Mr. JENNER. He just swung one lick and ran?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the post on him.
Mr. JENNER. Passed the post, what's that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on Lee at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You think that might have happened because of the squabble he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this happening, and a couple of other boys and I--I don't remember who they were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

 

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Is that corroborated by anyone else...

Quote

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in fights?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us what you know about that?
Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom----
Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. That is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l?
Mrs. SMITH. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of patched his lip up, but he was--he more or less kept to himself, he didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the only one I remember.

 

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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Mr. VOEBEL. ....Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth....

 

 

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Mrs. SMITH. ....this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.

 


Voebel and Smith are describing the same fight? The same opponent? LOL

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:
3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

According to the Warren Commission, in the fall of 1954 LEE Harvey Oswald was attending Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  During that time LEE rather famously got into a fight with Beauregard schoolmate Ed Voebel and probably lost a tooth. 

Yet, from the testimony of Voebel...


I think Jim got a bit confused in that one statement. The fight was with Neumeyer. (Unless I'm confused.) And a later sucker punch may have been the one that knocked the tooth out.

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


At 10 inches tall, Ekdahl's noggin is huge. I'm 6' 2" tall and my head is quite big (I wear XL/XXL hats). Even so, by comparison my head is only 9 inches tall.

Given the size of Ekdahl's head, I think his recorded 5' 11" height is much more likely to be underestimated than overestimated.

The tallest he was listed is 5' 11". Why would anyone underestimate their height or allow it to be?

Edited by W. Tracy Parnell

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2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

"....LEE Oswald became friends with Ed Voebel (who was also friends with HARVEY Oswald a year earlier)...."


Armstrong should have contacted Ed Voebel and asked him about his two friends, both named Lee Harvey Oswald!

Is Ed Voebel still alive?

No, he's dead.

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7 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

That's what, an inch and maybe 20 pounds at most? Not hard for me to understand anyway. My wife can't estimate anybody's height or weight.

Tracy - it's 30-34 lbs. 

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40 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

The tallest he was listed is 5' 11". Why would anyone underestimate their height or allow it to be?

I don't know. Why would anyone overestimate their height or allow it to be? Because that is what you implied happened when you said his height was "probably closer to 5' 10" "

 

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3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

"....LEE Oswald became friends with Ed Voebel (who was also friends with HARVEY Oswald a year earlier)...."


Armstrong should have contacted Ed Voebel and asked him about his two friends, both named Lee Harvey Oswald!

Is Ed Voebel still alive?

Like David Ferrie, who also met both Oswalds, Ed Voebel met an untimely death.   In May 1971, he fell ill and was rushed to the Ochsner Clinic.  The doctor asked if he had been around any poisons.  He died the following day at the age of 32.  His father told the HSCA that, although he had no proof, he believed his son died under suspicious circumstances.

John did interview Voebel's sister, whose legal first name was Sweetie Pie.  He also talked to John Neumeyer who, if memory serves, became quite a successful businessman.

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6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Voebel and Smith are describing the same fight? The same opponent? LOL

Apparently so. lol

I did come across an explanation of it from Greg Parker at the ROKC forum from 2012 here;

Quote

How to reconcile the difference between Mrs Smith's testimony and Voebel on the issue of a drescription of Oswald's assailant?

According to Voebel his was a big footballer type. According to Smith he was "a little guy".

I have to go with Smith on the basis that she was able to put a name to the person - and unlike Voebel, had not been friends with Oswald, so had no impulse to put the best spin on it.

I can understand that.

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


I think Jim got a bit confused in that one statement. The fight was with Neumeyer. (Unless I'm confused.) And a later sucker punch may have been the one that knocked the tooth out.

Don't think you are confused. :) The (first) fight was with Neumeyer. A day later (maybe two days) Lee was 'sucker punched' (in retaliation?). Was his tooth actually knocked out? I'm not sure to be honest. Voebel doesn't sound overly sure imo when he says "I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out."

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The real question about all this LHO activity at Beauregard School in New Orleans, though, is how the heck do we explain that LHO clearly attended Stripling School in Fort Worth, Texas at the very same he was at Beauregard School in Louisiana?  Are the Harvey and Lee critics still trying to blame Jack White and Frank Kudlaty for all of this?  Kudlaty had a significant career in education.  He served as the Superintendent of Schools for Waco, Texas, and was hired by foreign governments, including China, as an educational consultant.  Why would he invent all this?  Why would all those other witnesses make this stuff up?  Why would Robert Oswald say in 1959, again in 1962, and again at the Warren Commission hearings that his "brother" attended Stripling School?  Was that all Jack White's fault too?

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