Jim Hargrove

TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

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Thanks for the confession, Tommy.  Interesting that no one here I know of has accused you of being with the CIA... except yourself... and you seem to confess every other day.  What's up with that?

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1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

He has to convince "newbies" that Harvey and Lee looked quite different so he can show that they, indeed, were two different guys, but on the other hand he's gotta show that they looked quite similar in order to explain how they were able to convince so many people that there was only one of them -- sometimes that "one of them" being Harvey, and at other times that "one of them" being Lee.

Well said.

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On 3/20/2017 at 11:31 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks for the confession, Tommy.  Interesting that no one here I know of has accused you of being with the CIA... except yourself... and you seem to confess every other day.  What's up with that?

"Dear James"

Too bad you're a relative newbie here.

LOL

--  Tommy :sun

PS --  The Agency told me that if I'm ever suspected of being ... well, you know what I mean ... that I should just "take the initiative" and volunteer that I AM, to throw the really paranoid "researchers" (not like you, of course) "off balance" and "off the scent" if you know what I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, because after all I AM on a highly-paid  mission here to get you to blame the assassination on just 5,000 Agency employees instead of what was, in truth, The Whole Freaking Enchilada from top-to-bottom (excluding a couple of janitors --- maybe.)

Please don't tell anyone.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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37 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

True.  All I have to offer is this:

HarveyandLee.net

--Jim

 

"Dear James"

No, you don't seem to understand.

--  Tommy :sun

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
Reason for edit: The Agency made me do it. At first I thought it was just the Devil, again.

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Jim Hargrove writes on page 28 (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23525-two-marguerite-oswalds-new-details/&do=findComment&comment=347501):

Quote

do you honestly believe that an Agency that deliberately poisoned thousands of Americans with LSD just to see what would happen would hesitate to give a little war orphan an unnecessary mastoidectomy just so his health records would match the American kid whose identity he was about to share for an intelligence operation involving a Mission to Moscow?

It's an inconvenient fact that the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory's Holy Book proclaims that a mastoidectomy operation was performed on 'Lee', and that the body in Oswald's grave was that of 'Harvey', because it was already known, long before the Holy Book had been presented to its believers, that the body in the grave had undergone a mastoidectomy. The theory had been conclusively refuted by medical evidence even before it was published.

Now word has come down from on high that an imaginary mastoidectomy had also been performed on the imaginary 'Harvey', no doubt by an imaginary surgeon in an imaginary hospital, as an imaginary Marguerite waited nervously outside the imaginary operating theatre. Hallelujah! We can believe again! Take that, science!

On the subject of making it up as you go along, Mr Hargrove mentions "a little war orphan". This is his latest candidate for the fictional character, 'Harvey'. The original candidate was the child of Russian-speaking Hungarian refugees. When I pointed out in another thread that there is no credible documentary evidence for the existence of such a person, Mr Hargrove in effect admitted that the Hungarian refugee child was a figment of the imagination, claiming that "We think Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel" (http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23279-steven-hager-the-two-oswalds/&do=findComment&comment=340767).

I asked Mr Hargrove if he would be good enough to share with us the documentary evidence for the existence of the latest candidate, the Russian-speaking orphan. That was about ten weeks ago, and the lack of a reply leads me to assume that there is just as much evidence for the Russian-speaking orphan as there is for the Hungarian refugee child, i.e. none at all. What exactly is the documentary evidence for the existence of the "Russian-speaking World War II orphan", Mr Hargrove?

The existence of 'Harvey' is of course fundamental to the whole 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory, and it would be unfortunate, to say the least, if a similar lack of documentary evidence showed that the latest candidate too is just a figment of the imagination.

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The best evidence that Lee HARVEY Oswald was a native-speaking Russian was always his fluency in the language both before and after his false defection.  In the marines, he was known as “Oswaldovich” because he openly read Russian newspapers and magazines.  George DeMohrenschildt said he read Russian classics in the original Russian.  

Lee HARVEY Oswald’s command of Russian was surprisingly good, as observed by a number of people who spoke to him at a party just after Christmas 1962 given by Mrs Declan (Katya) Ford.  Here's a description of some of the party-goers remarks from Harvey and Lee:

 

Party attendees notice Oswald's ability to speak Russian

Natalie Ray, one of the party attendees, said, "Oswald was very proud of the fact
that he spoke Russian so well." As a native of Russia Natalie said that she was amazed
that he had such a good command of the language.169 Other attendees of the party were
equally amazed at his proficiency in the Russian language and discussed their thoughts
with the Warren Commission:

Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he
(Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; re­-
ally surprised me .... .it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time,
you know .... .l said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long
and still don't speak very well English."'

George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Rus­-
sian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been
in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied,
"I would say very good."170

Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his com­-
mand of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the pe­-
riod of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely
better than I would expect."

Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good
command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did
speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised-in
short time, he spoke nicely."

George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke
fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to
speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English
to Russian."

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I
thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I
asked him if he was of Polish decent."

--from Harvey and Lee, p. 426, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

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I asked Mr Hargrove to provide the documentary evidence which led him to conclude that "We think Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel". All he has provided is a passage from Scripture which shows that Oswald spoke Russian fluently after having spent more than two years in the Soviet Union.

It is not controversial that the real, historical, singular Lee Harvey Oswald spoke Russian fluently on his return to the USA. What is controversial, and something that requires documentary evidence for it to be taken seriously, is the notion that the 'Harvey' character was an actual, living "Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel", as Mr Hargrove claims.

I'll try again: what is the documentary evidence for the existence of this "Russian-speaking World War II orphan"?

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Jeremy Bojczuk wants us to believe that “Lee Harvey Oswald” became fluent reading, writing, and speaking Russian because he spent two and a half years in the USSR and may have secretly taken some Russian courses in the USMC (a well-kept secret, since the comprehensive unit diaries and other USMC records indicate little time for such work).  Mr. Bojczuk glosses over the fact that Russian emigres, such as those at Katya Ford’s post-Christmas party, were amazed  at his fluency.     DeMohrenschildt said he preferred to speak Russian over English and read the Russian classics in the original Russian.  Peter Gregory (father of Paul Gregory, who Harvey met at Stripling School)  thought he might be of Polish descent because he thought his Russian was spoken with a Polish accent.

Since he was such a young man when he obviously knew Russian in the Marine Corps, it is hardly a leap of faith to make the assumption that “Lee Harvey Oswald” knew Russian as a child.  Bojczuk will will deny this, but I think any open-minded person would agree that is a logical assumption.

Since we don’t know who Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was, we can only assume he came from Russia or an eastern Block nation and Russian-speaking parents.  Which brings me to the anonymous phone call reported by Mrs. Jack Tippit.
 

jfk101-08.jpg?dl=0

 

Neither John Armstrong nor I has claimed this is any kind of proof that Harvey was a Hungarian emigrant.  But it is the only hint we have about his earliest origins, which quite logically were foreign, and so we state it as a possibility.  If anyone with an open mind reads this dialog, ask yourself if Mr. Bojczuk’s arguments make you believe “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” command of Russian is explained by the Official Story, or anything approaching it.

According to the Official Story, “Lee Harvey Oswald” wrote Russian like this:
 

oswald.png?dl=0

 

Do you believe Mr. Bojczuk’s version of Harvey’s Russian fluency?  Frankly, the anonymous phone call seems every bit as persuasive as the Official Story, and probably more so.
 

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9 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I asked Mr Hargrove to provide the documentary evidence which led him to conclude that "We think Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel"


I doubt that Jim has documentary evidence that Harvey Oswald was a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel. Because surely it would be in Armstrong's book if there was any such evidence.

However, there is documentary evidence that there were two Oswald's. In addition, there is photographic and documentary evidence that they each had a mother named Marguerite Oswald.

These mothers and sons share many attributes, for example the same birth dates. Statistic for this occurring naturally are extremely slim. Reasoning tells us that instead, one mother/son pair is likely a CIA doppelganger for he other. Because what other U.S. organization would create such a thing?

It is highly unusual for a non-native speaker of Russian to speak it as well as Harvey did after living just two years in Russia. Given that Harvey was likely a CIA doppelganger, and that he spoke near flawless Russian, as though he were a native speaker of the language, it is reasonable to conclude that his doppelganger mother would not be his true mother. Because if she were, she too would be a native speaker of Russian.

So, documentary evidence, photographic evidence, vocal evidence, and reasoning indicates that Harvey Oswald is likely a native Russian speaking man who has been paired up with a fake mother at a young age by the CIA.

Further reasoning indicates that this boy either has no family or was taken from his family. For what boy would willingly leave his family?And what family would willingly give up their child. Not many.

Further reasoning indicates that this boy lived his early years in a Russian speaking environment. That would explain his superb Russian speaking skills.

Statistics dictate that the Russian speaking environment was likely in Eastern Europe. So the boy likely came to America from an Eastern European county.

As I reasoned earlier, it is very unlikely that a young boy would willingly leave his family. Or that a family would willingly give up one of their children. Therefore it is likely that the boy had no family.

Kids who have no family usually live in an orphanage. So the boy likely came from an orphanage.

From all this I conclude that Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking orphan brought to the U.S. by the CIA.

Now, I don't know much about U.S. intelligence agencies other than the CIA and NSA. Oswald may have been brought here by one of the other intelligence agencies. So I will change "CIA" to the more general term "intel" in my conclusion:

Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel.

Therefore my conclusion is the same as Jim and John's, with the exception of the "World War II" part. If orphanage statistics around 1950 showed that a large majority of Eastern European orphans were products of the war, than I would add the "World War II" part to my conclusion as well.

 

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Oswald wrote his mother, often, according to those who were asked and knew him in the Marines.

His mother wrote him back, and got upset that she hadn't heard from him in so long.

Oswald was placed on a list:
On November 10, 1959 the FBI posted a "Wanted Notice Card" for Lee Harvey Oswald.46 The CIA put Oswald on the watch list for the "HTLINGUAL" project. This means that Oswald's mail coming into and leaving the US would be read by CIA personnel under the direction of Newton "Scotty" Miller, of James Angleton's SIG (Special Investigations Group) in the Counterintelligence Section (CI).

The WCR H&E section has Lee Harvey's letters to her, his letters to Robert, American Embassy, and everywhere else...

But what about all the letters to Lee Harvey ?  Is it not just a bit strange that this man who supposedly saved the most random of items does not have a single letter from his family in his possessions?  That the CIA nor FBI has a copy of any of these letters...

We really have no idea where "Harvey" comes from yet when this boy moves back to the South he is teased for his NY accent.

Another Beauregard classmate who knew Harvey Oswald was Ed Collier who
recalled, "We called him Yank because he had a Yankee accent."9   

    9 Peter Kihss, New York Times, Interview of Ed Collier, 11/25/63: p. 11.

Oswald's cousin, Marilyn Murret, also talked about Harvey's northern accent.
She told the Warren Commission, "It seems that he was from the North, and so they
ridiculed him in school.. ...

 

Many letter FROM Oswald - no letters from Family TO Oswald.jpg

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2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Do you believe Mr. Bojczuk’s version of Harvey’s Russian fluency?  Frankly, the anonymous phone call seems every bit as persuasive as the Official Story, and probably more so.

That sums up the Armstrong/Hargrove mindset very well. An anonymous phone call trumps the testimony of dozens of people who actually knew the one and only LHO. Lee Harvey Oswald learned the Russian language by speaking it every day in the Soviet Union for nearly three years as the record clearly shows. His proficiency was an evolution as the testimony of those who knew him proves. When he arrived in the Soviet Union, he spoke Russian very poorly, but by the time he made the acquaintance of the Russian community in the US, he was reasonably proficient. Nothing mysterious and nothing that requires "Harvey" to refrain from speaking his native language as Armstrong maintains and as we know did not happen:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/lho-spoke-no-russian-in-russia.html

Edited by W. Tracy Parnell

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9 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

That sums up the Armstrong/Hargrove mindset very well. An anonymous phone call trumps the testimony of dozens of people who actually knew the one and only LHO. Lee Harvey Oswald learned the Russian language by speaking it every day in the Soviet Union for nearly three years as the record clearly shows. His proficiency was an evolution as the testimony of those who knew him proves. When he arrived in the Soviet Union, he spoke Russian very poorly, but by the time he made the acquaintance of the Russian community in the US, he was reasonably proficient. Nothing mysterious and nothing that requires "Harvey" to refrain from speaking his native language as Armstrong maintains and as we know did not happen:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/lho-spoke-no-russian-in-russia.html

If "Harvey" was Hungarian, then Hungarian, a Turkic (from Central Asia) language, would have been his native tongue, not Indo-European) Russian, a highly-inflected Slavic language  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attila

--  Tommy :sun

Anecdote --  I was lucky enough to see a full eclipse of the sun in western Hungary in 1999, I believe it was.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Below is the 1959 passport HARVEY Oswald used for his false defection to the USSR.  Curiously, it has LEE Oswald’s photograph and (on another page) LEE’s 5’ 11” height.
 

lee-harvey-oswald-passport-picture-id576

 

Note the stamp “THIS PASSPORT IS NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL IN HUNGARY” toward the middle of the page on the right.  It could be just a reaction to the 1956 revolution in Hungary, but, if Harvey’s original home was in Hungary, it might be there to prevent him from abandoning his Mission to Moscow and returning to his ancestral home.

 

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