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Jim Hargrove

TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

559 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

There is no evidence that LHO attended Stripling other than witness testimony from 30-40 years later. Kudlaty was a friend of Jack White and White probably gave him some of the ideas he had about the case. The fact that many discrepancies occurred during the Carro interview suggests that there was a communication problem there.

That's not true, Tracy, and you should know it.  Robert Oswald told the Fort Worth Star Telegraph way back in 1959 that his "brother" attended Stripling.  That's only five years after "Oswald's" Stripling attendance. Are you guys blaming Jack White for that too?  Sheesh!  Why are you misleading people like this?

Stripling_1959.jpg?dl=0

Try again on Carro.  He was a professional taking notes of an interview.  Do you really believe "Marguerite's" lack of understanding of her own background was Carro's fault.  Why did she have to rely on supplied notes to reconstruct simple details of her biography during her Warren Commission testimony?

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I wasn't referring to Robert, just the witnesses that Armstrong spoke to years after the fact. Robert probably assumed  that LHO went to Stripling because he did. One example of a miscommunication between Carro and Marguerirte was her sister's name was listed as Lillian Sigourette (can't remember the spelling). It should be obvious that Sigourette rhymes with Murret and that is how Carro heard it and wrote it down. A simple mistake and the fact that there are so many of them indicates a problem with that particular interview for whatever reason. I've mentioned her WCT testimony before. She was a nervous woman who was reading from a document that may have contained mistakes that confused her even more. Armstrong went to TCU so he may have the document-he should release it so we can see what she was working from.

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I see, you weren't referring to the evidence you said didn't exist... which is probably Jack White's fault also, eh?

Do you seriously believe Carro heard "Murret" but wrote down "Sigourette?"  You do have some evidence for that, right?

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On 2/25/2017 at 3:53 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

You can’t just look at pictures by themselves to determine whether there were two Marguerite Oswalds and two LHOs.  You have to look at all the evidence.  As one example….

According to the Warren Commission, in the fall of 1954 LEE Harvey Oswald was attending Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  During that time LEE rather famously got into a fight with Beauregard schoolmate John Neumeyer and probably lost a tooth.  LEE’s mother, the real Marguerite Oswald, at the time was living at 1454 St. Mary's St. in New Orleans, not far from Beauregard School.

What the Warren Commission didn’t report (other than neglecting to bury a brief statement by Robert Oswald during his testimony) was that, at the same time during the same school semester,  Lee HARVEY Oswald was attending Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth, Texas.  His caretaker/mother, the Marguerite Oswald impostor, was living at 2200 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling School.  Aware that Harvey Oswald’s Stripling school attendance threatened to expose the existence of an “Oswald Project” involving the two children, Hoover dispatched agents to Stripling within hours of the assassination to confiscate Harvey’s school records.  The agents were met by assistant principal Frank Kudlaty, who handed over the records, which disappeared while in FBI hands. See Frank's YouTube interview:

Warren Commission loyalists and/or Harvey and Lee critics such as Tracy Parnell want you to believe that Lee HARVEY Oswald never attended Stripling, some going so far as to suggest that the late JFK researcher Jack White somehow got Frank Kudlaty to make bogus claims about Oswald’s Stripling records.  But these critics seemingly don’t want you to know how much other evidence exists showing that HARVEY Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas while LEE Oswald was at Beauregard School in Louisiana.an

During research in the 1990s, John Armstrong located a number of former Stripling teachers and students who remembered that Oswald had attended the school.  One was gym teacher Mark Summers, who began his work at Stripling in September 1950, the year after Robert Oswald graduated from Stripling.  He remembered that Lee HARVEY Oswald was in one of his gym classes, though he remembered little else about him.   Classmates Doug Gann, Jackie and Bobby Pitts, and Fran Schubert also remembered LHO at Stripling. See Fran's YouTube interview.

At least one educator in Fort Worth told John Armstrong that it was “common knowledge” that LHO attended Stripling School in the 1950s.  In late October 1959, when his so-called brother “defected,” Robert Oswald told the Fort Worth Star Telegraph that LHO had attended Stripling School.  He said the same thing to the same paper in June 1962, at the time of LHO's repatriation.  And, of course, Robert testified that his “brother” attended Stripling, a remark totally ignored by WC lawyers. 

Bear in mind that from both before and after the entire fall semester starting in September 1954, the Warren Commission said LHO and his mother lived at 1454 St. Mary’s St. in New Orleans.  No wonder WC loyalists work so hard to discredit the simple fact that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas at the same time!  Here’s the 10/31/59 Fort Worth Stat Telegraph article, hard to find online:

   
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/6s62u2kgus4x6n2/Stripling_1959.jpg?dl=0

Edit: Corrected the name of the guy LEE Oswald fought at Beauregard School  to John Neumeyer.  Thanks to Alistair and Sandy.

Bump!

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5 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I see, you weren't referring to the evidence you said didn't exist... which is probably Jack White's fault also, eh?

Do you seriously believe Carro heard "Murret" but wrote down "Sigourette?"  You do have some evidence for that, right?

I left out Robert, that was an oversight on my part which I admitted. As for Carro, no evidence, but I believe it is a reasonable assumption.

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1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

So let's move on to another subject.  Why did "Marguerite Oswald" know so little about her life and her family's life when interviewed by John Carro in NYC in 1953 and by the Warren Commission in 1964?  The information she provided Carro is a little scattered around the WC Carro exhibits, but here's how John A. summarizes it:

The Marguerite Oswald impostor told Carro she was the youngest of 6 children, yet there were 5 children in the Claverie family. She gave Lee Oswald's father's name as Robert Lee Harvey, when his real name was Robert Edward Lee Oswald. She said Lee's father died at age 45, yet we know he was 41 years old when he died. She gave her marriage date as July 19, 1929, yet she married Robert Oswald in 1933. She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian Murrett. She said she formerly owned a house in Corning, Texas, yet there is not and never has been a "Corning," Texas. She gave Lee Harvey Oswald's birth date as October 19 when the correct date was October 18th. She said Lee was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church in New Orleans, when the records show he was baptized at the Redeemer Lutheran Church in New Orleans. When she was asked whether Lee's father was right or left handed she replied "I do not remember, sir" (Warren Commission testimony). There is no reason for a 45 year old woman to make these kind of errors concerning her background. Had she forgotten, was she lying, or was this person truly Lee's mother?

How can anyone know so little about her supposed family?  Would anyone here make those kinds of mistakes about their own backgrounds?
 

*Just as a point was Robert Edward Lee Oswald not 43 when he died.

Jim, these kind of things fascinate me. You posit the question of 'would anyone here make those kinds of mistakes about their own backgrounds?' Not I, but I do know some people who certainly make some of those mistakes (dates of birth or ages for example)...

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*Just as a point was Robert Edward Lee Oswald not 43 when he died.

Jim, these kind of things fascinate me. You posit the question of 'would anyone here make those kinds of mistakes about their own backgrounds?' Not I, but I do know some people who certainly make some of those mistakes (dates of birth or ages for example)...

Yes, he was 43.

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9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 When she was asked whether Lee's father was right or left handed she replied "I do not remember, sir" (Warren Commission testimony).

Just on that note, here is the part of Marguerite's WC testimony for context...

Quote

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.
Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.
Mr. RANKIN. But you are?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.
But Lee was more left handed than I am.
I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left handed one. I would say no.

 

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9 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*Just as a point was Robert Edward Lee Oswald not 43 when he died.

Jim, these kind of things fascinate me. You posit the question of 'would anyone here make those kinds of mistakes about their own backgrounds?' Not I, but I do know some people who certainly make some of those mistakes (dates of birth or ages for example)...

Yes, according to findagrave, he was 43 when he died.  I'll send your link to John.  Thanks again.

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Posted (edited)

IN FOND MEMORY

OF JACK WHITE

 

As they were quick to do in a thread from some months ago called “Frankenstein Oswald,” present and past posters on this forum seem anxious to blame the late, great JFK researcher Jack White for a number of things they don’t like about current JFK assassination research. They were wrong about “Frankenstein Oswald,” and they’re wrong again now. In this thread, and elsewhere, W. Tracy Parnell is implying that Jack White was somehow involved in making Stripling School Assistant Principal Frank Kudlaty tell one of the biggest whoppers the state of Texas has heard in recent times. According to Parnell, Kudlaty, under Jack White’s evil influence, totally concocted a story that he met FBI agents at Stripling School immediately after the assassination and handed them records of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” attendance at the school starting in 1954.

Tracy does this even though John Armstrong published nearly 15 years ago the actual story of how he found Frank Kudlaty and learned of his story. It had nothing to do with Jack White and everything to do with dogged research. John found that multiple people in the area remembered Frank Kudlaty at Stripling School and knew he was still alive. Why? Because Frank was reasonably famous. In addition to his work at Stripling, he had been the Superintendent of Schools for Waco, Texas, and had worked internationally as an educational consultant.

Here, in John’s own words written in 2002 and 2003, is how he discovered Frank Kudlaty and his story.

 

After reading Robert Oswald's testimony, I wrote a letter to the principal of W.C.

Stripling, Mr. Ricardo Galindo, and asked if there were any records of Oswald's atten­-

dance at Stripling.37 Mr. Galindo telephoned and said that while he did not have pos­-

session of such records, it was "common knowledge" that Oswald attended Stripling.

He said all school records had been turned over to the Fort Worth Independent School

District many years ago, and suggested that I contact them to see if they had any records.

 

In late 1993 I made an appointment with Mr. Ralph Waller of the FWISD, 100

North University, in Fort Worth. I met Mr. Waller and his friend, Billy J. Sills, a retired

resident of Fort Worth who was devoting his time to setting up an historical archive for

the District. When I asked if the District had any school records for "Lee Harvey

Oswald," Mr. Waller instructed a co-worker to review their microfilm and provide me

with copies of any records. When I asked if there was a list of teachers who taught at

Stripling in 1954 Mr. Waller said they had no such list, but Billy Sills said he would check

his records and then left.

 

Mr. Waller explained that students who graduated from Ridglea West Elemen­-

tary School prior to the 1951-1952 school year would have gone to Stripling Junior High.

Students who graduated from Ridglea West Elementary School during or after the 1951-

52 school year would have attended Monnig Junior High School, which opened in the

fall of 1952. Oswald graduated from Ridglea West in the spring of 1952, and a copy of

his school transcripts should have been sent to Monnig Junior High--not Stripling.

 

NOTE: Only Marguerite Oswald's notification that the family was moving to New York

would have prevented Ridglea Hest Elementary from automatically forwarding a copy

of Oswald's school transcripts to Monnig. Such a request was not made because the New

York school records did not contain any school transcripts from Ridglea West Elementary.

 

After researching their microfilm records, Mr. Waller's co-workers did not find

any of Oswald's school transcripts, which meant the original records and carbon copies

disappeared prior to 1964 (probably confiscated by the FBI in 1963 ). The only records

they located were enrollment cards from 1951 and 1952 for Ridglea West Elementary

School.

 

NOTE: Prior to the mid-1960's, each Fort Worth school archived school records on site.

In the mid-1960's records from all Fort Worth schools were transferred to a central

warehouse at the Fort Worth Independent School District and microfilmed.

As I was leaving Mr. Waller's office, Billy Sills returned and gave me a handwrit-­

ten list of 41 teachers who had taught at Stripling Junior High during the 1951-1952

school year, along with their most recent address and telephone number.54-18

 

Stripling faculty members

 

After many hours of long distance telephone calls, I managed to contact a sur­-

prising number of former Stripling teachers, although many were deceased. One man

I spoke with was Mark Summers, a former gym teacher, who began his 10-year tenure

at Stripling in September 1950, one year after Robert Oswald graduated from the school

( 1949). Mr. Summers said that "Lee Harvey Oswald" was a student in his gym class for

a short time, but remembered little about him.

 

NOTE: Mr. Summers could not have mistakenly remembered Robert Oswald in his

class, because Robert graduated from Stripling the year before he began teaching.

 

As I continued to locate and talk with former Stripling teachers, many suggested

that I call "Frank Kudlaty," the former assistant principal at Stripling. I telephoned Mr.

Kudlaty, introduced myself as a JFK researcher, and asked if he knew whether or not

"Lee Harvey Oswald" had attended Stripling. Without hesitation Frank said, "Yes, he

attended Stripling." Somewhat surprised I asked, "How do you know that." Frank re­-

plied, "Because I gave his Stripling records to the FBI."

 

--from Harvey and Lee, pp. 97-98, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

 

 

Rest in peace, Jack White. In JFK research, no good deed goes unpunished.

 

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yes, according to findagrave, he was 43 when he died.  I'll send your link to John.  Thanks again.

No worries, happy to be of assistance. :)

Regarding;

Quote

So let's move on to another subject.  Why did "Marguerite Oswald" know so little about her life and her family's life when interviewed by John Carro in NYC in 1953 and by the Warren Commission in 1964?  The information she provided Carro is a little scattered around the WC Carro exhibits, but here's how John A. summarizes it:

The Marguerite Oswald impostor told Carro she was the youngest of 6 children, yet there were 5 children in the Claverie family. She gave Lee Oswald's father's name as Robert Lee Harvey, when his real name was Robert Edward Lee Oswald. She said Lee's father died at age 45, yet we know he was 41 years old when he died. She gave her marriage date as July 19, 1929, yet she married Robert Oswald in 1933. She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian Murrett. She said she formerly owned a house in Corning, Texas, yet there is not and never has been a "Corning," Texas. She gave Lee Harvey Oswald's birth date as October 19 when the correct date was October 18th. She said Lee was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church in New Orleans, when the records show he was baptized at the Redeemer Lutheran Church in New Orleans. When she was asked whether Lee's father was right or left handed she replied "I do not remember, sir" (Warren Commission testimony). There is no reason for a 45 year old woman to make these kind of errors concerning her background. Had she forgotten, was she lying, or was this person truly Lee's mother?

How can anyone know so little about her supposed family?  Would anyone here make those kinds of mistakes about their own backgrounds?

See the WC Carro exhibit, is there a better version of it online than this one here - http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Carro_Ex_1.pdf

EDIT I just found this - http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../jfkinfo3/exhibits/carro1.htm

I presume that Carro typed that up from his notes after his 'interview' with Marguerite. Do those notes still exist? Is it known whether they were written in longhand or shorthand?

Anyroads, I was trying to find where each of the following came from... (in brackets is the ones I have located thus far).

She gave Lee Oswald's father's name as Robert Lee Harvey (Carro exhibit)
She said Lee's father died at age 45 (Carro exhibit)
She gave her marriage date as July 19, 1929 (Carro exhibit)
She said she formerly owned a house in Corning, Texas (Carro exhibit)
She gave Lee Harvey Oswald's birth date as October 19 (Carro exhibit)
She said Lee was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church in New Orleans (Carro exhibit)
When she was asked whether Lee's father was right or left handed she replied "I do not remember, sir" (WC)

(I will need to come back to the following two as I haven't yet located them.

she was the youngest of 6 children
She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette .

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Posted (edited)

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

No one seems to have a good explanation for how Oswald could have attended Beauregard School in New Orleans and Stripling School in Fort Worth at the same time.  No one can explain why the Stripling records disappeared while in FBI custody.

Jim,

In the fall of 1954, Fake Marguerite and Harvey lived in Ft Worth and he attended 9th grade at Stripling Junior High. He completed the first half of the semester (we know because the vice principal saw his grades for that) but not the second half (we know because the vice principal saw no grades for that). Harvey may have continued attending Stripling for part of the second half of fall semester.

Then in January 1955 they returned to New Orleans. Could not have Harvey attended Beauregard Junior High at that time? And thus have attended both schools during Harvey's 9th grade?

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Posted (edited)

Quote

According to Parnell, Kudlaty, under Jack White’s evil influence, totally concocted a story that he met FBI agents at Stripling School immediately after the assassination and handed them records of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” attendance at the school starting in 1954.

White could have had something to do with it, since he was a friend of Kudlaty. But the main thrust probably came from Armstrong who gets a hold of these people years and years after the fact and influences them with his theories. He does not approach them in an objective manner as has been discussed by Lifton, Parker and others so no need to repeat it. The people you mention are probably thinking of Robert and of course they want to be a part of history so they "remember" LHO. As for the records being "stolen" it is a good story but meaningless without substantiation.

Edited by W. Tracy Parnell

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I find Kudlaty.to be credible. Not the type to sensationalize or desire attention.

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