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Separate Realities on the SW corner of Elm and Houston


John Butler

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Thanks James DiEugenio for your comments on hijacking.  I believe the Separate Realities notion is a strong concept capable of standing on it's own with people with an open mind.  That's Michael Walton's problem.  He does not have an open mind.  If he can't convince you with argument then he resorts to ad hominem attacks.  This has occurred several times and I reported the last which was more offensive than most and it was removed.

There are major differences between the Dorman and Zapruder films.  There are differences in people, in their number in the same place and the same time, there are extra people in Dorman not seen in the Zapruder film.  There are people seen in the Zapruder film not seen Dorman and vice versa.

Thanks again,

 

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8.2 miles is slower than the estimated 11 mph of the motorcade.  Particularly, when the limo had a head start of about 100 feet basically in front of the Court Records Building  on Phillip Willis.  I'm estimating the length of the Houston block at about 200 feet also.

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200ft for the building corner to corner is correct.

Using JFK within the limo as the measuring point.

Limo traveled approx 214.2ft from Willis' photo to z133

135ft down Houston St.

30.2ft from County Records corner to directly in front of snipers nest(Station# 2+50).

49ft from snipers nest to Z133(Station# 2+99).

214.2/16.6 sec = 8.8mph

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21 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Chris Scally, I  agree with  you 100% about the gap. Z started filming, realized it was too soon, didn't  want to unwind his camera, stopped filming, then started when the car was already  coming  down Elm.

There's  no mysterious  "missing gap"between  those  two sequences  of film.

Thanks  for  being  a  good  voice  of  reason  on this thread.

Thanks, Michael.

 

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Chris Davidson,

If I am reading your post correctly would 214 feet divided by 8.8 be 24 seconds?

Wills was on the NW corner of Main and Houston.  This would be about 180 feet from the corner.  Possibly, 190 feet according to the Hughes film.

Adding an additional 79 feet of yours to 180 feet we have 259 feet for Willis to cover at a run.  At 8.8 mph into 259 feet equals 29.43 seconds is the time for the run. This is too long for a 20 second gap. 

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I made this note some time ago.  I was never very happy with it.  At best this is only suggestive or a rough approximation.

In the Zapruder film Philip Willis is already on the corner of Elm and Houston Sts when Rosemary arrives.  It’s not the same in the Elsie Dorman film.  Rosemary and Linda are coming around the esplanade, as Philip Willis calls it, and Philip Willis is not there.  To do so he had to have out run his children from the corner of Main and Houston to the corner of Elm and Houston Sts.  In the Willis slides No. 3 shows the presidential vehicle at the south corner of the Court Records building.  It’s at this point in most of the assassination films things begin to go haywire.

I don’t know how long it took Philip Willis to make this run.  I don’t know how far it is from the corner of Main and Houston to the corner of Elm and Houston.  Let’s assume it is about 200 feet.  We won’t be off far with that distance.  This is from the internet:

LIVESTRONG.COM > Sports and Fitness > Fitness > Running

How Fast Should You Run a Mile?

How Fast Should You Run a Mile?

 

Ages 37 to 41

 

At the onset of middle age, it is more difficult to retain physical conditioning. Physical strength can be maintained as long as individuals exercise, compete, and work out regularly. However, fatty areas on the body increase while reaction times and quickness tend to diminish. A lack of exercise can cause a dramatic fall in the overall conditioning level. An individual in this age group that can run a mile in 6:48 or better is in the top 1 percent.  Runners who can finish a 1-mile run in 9:45 are in the top 50 percent for the age group.   

Let’s put Philip Willis in the top 1 per cent:

Simple calculations which are based on a 6:48 minutes per mile time gives you 408 seconds per mile.  This gives you 5280 feet divided by 408 seconds = 12.94 feet per second.  At last, 200 feet divided by 12.94 feet per second = 15.46 seconds gives the time for Philip Willis’ run from corner to corner.  Please consider that the presidential vehicle is about to pass the Court Records building and it would be impossible for Willis to make his run unless the vehicle stopped.

 Let’s put Philip Willis in the top 50 per cent group: 

At 9:45 minutes per mile times 60 seconds equals 585 seconds.  And, 5280 divided by 585 seconds gives 9.02 feet per second.  The last calculation is 200 feet divided by 9.02 seconds = 22 seconds.  Again, please consider that the presidential vehicle is about to pass the Court Records building and it would be impossible for Willis to make his run unless the vehicle stopped 

So, with these simple calculations it took our speed demons, Philip Willis and his family, something like 15.46 to 22 seconds to run from the corner of Main and Houston to the corner of Elm and Houston Sts.  His daughters were directly behind him.  Being middle aged and somewhat disabled from WWII he probably took the longer time.  Let’s say 20 to 25 seconds.  Meanwhile, what is going on with the presidential limousine? 

We left the limousine at the southwest corner of the Court Records Building.  How long would it take the limo to go from there to the front of the TSBD?  I don’t believe our speed demons would beat the limo to the intersection unless it stopped or was traveling at a very slow speed.  It is probably not possible to run from the corner of Main and Houston and beat the Presidential Limousine making a turn onto Elm St. starting from in front of the Court Records Building.

It would probably be a lot less than 20 seconds unless something delayed it.  In traveling through the intersection the presidential limousine’s speed has been estimated from 3-5 miles per hour to 10-12 miles per hour.  The higher speed may account for Greer's wild turn into the intersection.  They should have arrived in front of the TBSD before Philip Willis.

Elsie Dorman’s film does not have Philip Willis on the corner as the presidential party approaches.  Z frame 133 has him in the street taking a photo.  I would guess Willis No. 4.

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@John Butler & Chris Davidson:

The work you both are doing in analyzing the Dorman vs. Z-film appeals to a lot of us interested in the visual record of the JFK ambush. Trying to figure out what devious people appear to have done to some (or all) of the JFK ambush photos/films in an attempt to disguise the truth of the event is not easy work when one wasn't actually there to see alterations performed or have it explained why scenes were being changed.

I, for one, never bought the 'Elsie Dorman held the camera to the side of her face' story about her film. I don't believe that story. Even a toddler knows to look through a viewfinder to take a photo.

I suspect Elsie caught the action down on the street below her window as it happened and the handlers of her film (early investigators) moved the focus up from JFK's touring car & the SS followup car tailgating it to the sparse line of spectators closest to the reflecting pool. This would have been a slick way of destroying Elsie's film without actually tossing the entire film in a furnace or setting it on fire with a match.

With the parade vehicles removed, the spectators could be moved around at ease in scenes because there are no vehicles to establish time.

From what I have read, an optical printer can reframe a photo or strip of film to take the focus off of one subject & onto another.

I believe it's important to note that a motorcade vehicle stopped in front of the TSBD before JFK's entourage arrived. I believe it was the pilot car that did this.

I'm one of the group of skeptics that believes the pilot car (or another parade car, if the not the pilot car) dropped off the shooters of JFK in front of the TSBD. They mingled with the crowd with overcoats hiding their weapons. When the motorcade rounded the corner, one or more shooter either mounted the bumper of JFK's limo, the running boards or rear bumper of the SS vehicle (or both vehicles), rode a shot distance down the Elm Street incline, attacked JFK & John Connally, dismounted near the Newmans & ran up the steps of the pergola.

In respect to the intersection of Houston & Elm streets, I believe scenario I described is  what has been cut/manipulated out of the ambush films.

When John Butler opens a thread on the frontal shooter, I expect he'll explore the image of a man in a suit & hat that appears to have the butt of a rifle resting on the overpass bridge apron (as seen in the Cabluck photo). Near him is a group of black people who do not look like railroad workers. I believe this person also departed the car that stopped in front of the TSBD & walked over to the overpass.

I agree with John that the Altgens 7 photo is a fake. I believe the railroad workers we see in Altgens 7 originated in additional photos Altgens snapped before or after the ambush in an attempt to hide the shooter with the suit & hat.

For me, the common denominator in all the JFK ambush visuals is the SS followup car practically vanishes from the Elm Street intersection forward. One cannot track the SS followup car the entire journey it made down Elm Street during the ambush. I believe the answers to the assassination are contained within that simple fact.

Sincerely,

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch
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Brad,

As always your posts are interesting and fascinating.  The Cabluck images of black people on the Triple Underpass are new and astounding to me.  Cabluck, I'm going to assume took his pictures directly after the assassination.  The question is where did these black people come from?  They are no where else in the visual record that I know of.  There may be a black person or people in the area on the grass between Elm and Main down near the railroad bridge in Bell.  I may not be remembering this correctly so treat this accordingly. 

I see what you are saying about the rifle butt.  Looks pretty much like one.  The object he is holding in his hand may be a 60's era PRC-6.  Or it could be an actual US Army PRC-6.

More needs to be known about the time of the photo.  This could be a law enforcement official, maybe? 

Brad, I think you should teach a mini-photo editing techniques class to a lot of the people who have been replying to my posts.  They don't believe such exits.

 

Edited by John Butler
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Thank you for your kind words, John:

For those who are interested in film & photo special effects, it may come as a shock to learn that optical printers were used in the filming construction of the 1932/1933 movie 'King Kong'. I would suggest to google search for 'optical printers', King Kong, film special effects for starters.

Those fools stalking & poking you are not amusing EF readers, John. The readers are following your threads looking for explanations & ideas. They aren't interested in reading what some anonymous poster thinks is impossible or mistaken. People prefer to make up their own minds.

The blacks up on the overpass with the fellow that looks to have a rifle resting on the overpass arm could have been marshalled to that spot by the fellow with the rifle. There is testimony & interview comments scattered throughout the JFK ambush story that a railroad detective was supposedly on top of the overpass or behind the grassy knoll privacy fence before, during & after the ambush. His identity & why he was there has never been determined. The identities of the black people on top of the overpass & why they were there to be photographed by Cabluck from the window of one of the motorcade press busses also slipped through the cracks over time. It wouldn't surprise me if the rifleman found them all drinking in one of the parked train Pullman cars & took them up to the overpass under pretense of arresting them. Something along those lines.

Your work is bringing us all closer to the truth of what happened to JFK, John. For that, you deserve a historian/investigative journalist prize, not juvenile ridicule.

All the best to you, distinguished Sir,

Brad Milch

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John:

If - for any reason - you include me among those who tried to "hijack" your thread or was being critical in any way, then I regret that you think so, and apologize for any misunderstanding.

However, as far as I'm concerned, I simply shared with you some information about the duration of the "stop" in the Zapruder film, as researched by me some years ago. My finding of a stop of between 18.43 and 22.75 seconds was double-checked against a careful analysis of the movements of DPD motorcycle escort Leon Gray, by reference to the Weaver still photo, the Hughes film, Dale Myers' "Epipolar Analysis", and the Zapruder film. I believe that that analysis confirmed my initial figures of 18-23 seconds for the stop.  

 

Edited by Chris Scally
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Chris Scally,

Thanks for your analysis and comments.  I accept DiEugenio's comments on hijacking.  Any notion is only as strong as it merits if given an honest reading.

The differences between the two films has been made clearer by the 6th Floor Museum's reconstruction of the film and others who have worked to make the frames more viewable.

Those differences are hard to miss when comparing images in frames of the two films.  Particularly, in the area at the end of the walkway just before the grassy area between Elm and Main.  There are 5 young couples, two unidentified men, and two woman who are not the same as the two women shown in Zapruder in that area.  These people are not shown at all or shown elsewhere in Zapruder as in the case of the two women.  This is happening during the same time period before the presidential limousine enters the intersection.  12 people there as versus 26 is hard to miss.

This is is just a couple examples of the Separate Realities concept.

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There are problems with Mr. Phillip Willis’ testimony concerning the events of the Kennedy assassination.  These statements will be compared to other statements made by his family members years later.

The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

 

Phillip Willis-  Selected Portions

Mr. WILLIS. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent real estate broker.

Mr. WILLIS.  We were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street approaching the area on Main and I stood at the corner of Main and Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and making the turn onto Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the corner, you say?
Mr. WILLIS. At the corner of Houston and Main.  

 
Mr. WILLIS. I remained there until I got the shot of the President approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston approaching the turn they were to make onto Elm. Then I immediately ran across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the curb in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

(The question is could he do that in time to be there when the president arrived?)

 
Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct?
Mr. WILLIS. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine (frames from the Zapruder film), on the edge of the street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got the occupants in the center. I was that close.

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street.

(The Zapruder film shows Willis in one location only until about Z frame 203 and then he disappears and is clearly gone in Z frame 204 and afterwards.  This disappearance is definitely odd.)

Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me.

(There seems to be a problem here.  Is Willis mixing up events on Houston with events on Elm Street?  Did he get confused in the recitation of  his script?)

But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I saw they were heading back toward their mother.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was she?
Mr. WILLIS. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete structure. How do you refer to that?

(Willis and his wife disagree on where she was.  Liebleler attempts to straighten Willis out.)

 
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection of Main Street and Houston Street?
Mr. WILLIS. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; that is the one across the street--no; here she was. She was in between Main and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from where the President was hit.
Mr. LIEBELER. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete structure on Dealey Plaza?
Mr. WILLIS. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an opening.

(Mrs. Willis said she took the route to Elm Street the other way on the grass)


Mr. LIEBELER. Looking toward the triple underpass?
Mr. WILLIS. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that time---at that moment--and none in between her and the street to block her vision.

Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that?
Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure?
Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that?
Mr. WILLIS.
I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository?
Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12.

(I don’t think one can find a photo or film frame showing this time?)
 

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder.

(Does this imply a shot was fired directly after Slide 4?)

To be continued.

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On 2/28/2017 at 9:59 PM, Chris Scally said:

John,

 

In 2014, I carried out some fairly detailed research into the elapsed time between Z-132 and Z-133. In summary, I established that the gap between those two frames was a minimum of 18.43 seconds, and a maximum of 22.75 seconds. This, as I recall, would require the removal of about 4 feet of film if it is being suggested that the 'frames' between Z132 and 133 were removed from the film. However, a far more reasonably explanation, to my mind, is that when he realized that the limo was not immediately behind the leading motorcycle escorts, Zapruder stopped filming, rewound his camera, and started filming again when the limo appears around the corner onto Elm. It should be remembered that Zapruder's camera would, when fully wound, record for approximately 75 seconds on a 'full wind' - he had already been filming (a few frames of setup footage, followed by footage of Marilyn Sitzman with Beatrice Hester and her husband) for just over 18 seconds when he exposed Z-001, so I think it possible if not indeed likely that he used the time between the arrival of the lead escorts and the appearance of the limo to rewind his camera to 'full' again. Using my own B&H 414PD Director Series camera, I checked how long it would take to rewind the B&H camera - having first filmed for 18 seconds - from stopping the camera, rewinding it to full, focusing on a subject and starting to film again, and in a series of repeated tests, I averaged between 19 and 21 seconds - almost exactly the duration of what I believe was Zapruder's stop in filming.

 

Hope this helps ...

 

Chris.  

You are correct Chris.

Nothing suspicious happened during the turn from Houston to Elm, the Towner film captures the whole turn

so what would be the point of taking the turn out of the Zapruder film ????

PDVD_005.JPG

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