The Discharge Of Lee Harvey Oswald And Other Related Issues

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 ... I will ask you Paul do you feel that Oswald's return to the US came about, not because he wanted to come back but moreso because Marina 'pressured' him in to it?

Regards

Alistair,

IMHO, Lee Harvey Oswald was not a mature man in early 1961 when he applied in the USSR to return to the USA.  He had just turned 21 years old, and Marina was pregnant.  He was proud of himself for actually having married, IMHO, and to some degree he wanted to show off his new wife to his family back in the USA.

Yet remember that LHO never held down a normal job in the USA in his entire life.  He didn't know what was involved.  He went from total dependency into the Marines at 17, where he was treated fairly well -- and then he went to the USSR when he was still 19, where he got an instant job to make him the peer of most other citizens of Minsk, but he also got an extra income from the Red Cross (I don't know why) and he also got the privilege of staying in the newest apartments in Minsk. 

So, LHO never had a job in the USA in his life -- and he had no idea how different it would be than the Marines or than the USSR.

So -- to that extent, I believe that LHO sort of wanted to see the USA again -- being a bit homesick -- but also he didn't want to think about the possibility of living like his mother and his brothers -- always struggling.  So, I think Lee would have stayed in the USSR if Marina hadn't pressured him about it.

I think that Marina Oswald put tremendous pressure on LHO to move to the USA.  She hated the USSR.  She was raised by her grandmother at first, who wanted Marina to be a lady, and her grandmother hated the USSR with a passion.   Marina was an Eastern Orthodox Christian, like her grandmother.   Communism was for the birds, as far as Marina was concerned. 

This was another reason that Marina liked Lee Oswald, IMHO -- Lee never surrendered his USA passport, and he never applied for USSR citizenship -- and most important -- Lee never joined the Communist Party in Russia.   Marina loved that about Lee -- and I have little doubt that Marina believed that deep down inside, Lee wanted to get the hell out of Russia, just like she did.

So -- there was pressure.  But there was also immaturity.  IMHO, Lee Oswald imagined that he could be an instant success as a writer.  I believe LHO put a lot of dreams into his Russian Journal (as pitiful as it appears to us today).  I believe LHO imagined that when he arrived at New York, that he would be mobbed by newspaper reporters.  I believe that LHO imagined that when he landed down at Love Field, that he would be mobbed by more newspaper reporters.

Robert Oswald suggested that LHO was disappointed when he arrived at Love Field, and there were no reporters to greet him.

The first thing that Oswald did when he arrived in Fort Worth was to hire a secretary to clean up his manuscript and type it up.   He paid her $100 (which is like $1,000 today) although he was poor as a Church mouse.  (She said her bill was larger than that, but he absolutely refused to pay it, and just grabbed the finished product and walked out without her permission.)

So -- I believe that LHO had dreams of an easy life in the USA.  He was in for the shock of his life.  When it became clear that nobody liked his Russian Journal manuscript -- LHO then began to daydream about different forms of the easy life -- like being a double-agent super-spy for the CIA.   Yeah -- 007.

LHO was still immature.  This is proved by his continual and visible neglect of his wife and baby.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

...

So -- to that extent, I believe that LHO sort of wanted to see the USA again -- being a bit homesick -- but also he didn't want to think about the possibility of living like his mother and his brothers -- always struggling.  So, I think Lee would have stayed in the USSR if Marina hadn't pressured him about it.

I both agree and disagree at this point... I agree that the thought of living like his Mother (struggling) would be a 'deterent' to him, but I feel that he wouldn't have thought of his brothers in the same way, in fact I think that he would have seen how they were living at the time and that would have appealed somewhat, inasmuch as his thought process may have been that they had 'escaped' the 'struggles' of their 'upbringing' by settling down in to married lives and Oswald would have wanted to emulate that. Really though, it's a tough one to call...

... as for the thought that he would have stayed in Russia if Marina hadn't pressured him about it. I disagree, inasmuch as I feel that Oswald would have become unsettled anyway and wanted to come back regardless of what Marina said because his life thus far had almost 'pre-programmed' him not to get settled in any one place for too long. In furtherance, I also don't think that Marina pressured him about it to the same extent that he pressured her to do it, in fact I reckon that Marina was very reluctant to leave Russia and it was totally down to Oswald putting the pressure on her - some of the 'KGB taps' on them point in that direction, for example this one from 11th August 1961;

Quote

LHO: If you don't love me, then how can you live with me? I give and will give you every opportunity... What do you want? One minute you say you want to leave, next minute you don't want to leave.
Wife: Sometimes I'm just afraid of going with you... I don't want to try to prove to you that everything here is great, and everything there is bad. But... if here I don't have anything and wont have anything, it's home.
LHO: You'll never have anything here, but over there you'll have your husband and everything.
Wife:... What will I do there? I'll sit at home the whole time and that's it.
LHO:... But you're going to live with me there. You'll have everything.
Wife: I'm not looking for material advantages. Money doesn't interest me. It's not important. Most important thing is how you treat me.
LHO: Ah, well, then everything is in order.
Wife: I don't have any guarantee that you won't abandon me there. Then what do I do?
LHO: If you don't love me, then don't go.
Wife: No, I'm afraid you're abandoning me... You're leaving, after all.
LHO: I'm leaving?!
Wife: See, you're alread yelling, and what will it be like later?
LHO:... What do you have here? One room. Is that so much? One room, and even that isn't yours.
Wife: We live here, it's ours.
LHO: You think it's mine? I don't sense that it's my own... I don't get any feeling it's mine.
(pause)
Wife; You torture me...
LHO: I hate it when you're the way you are now. I say one thing and you say another.
(pause)
Wife: Sleep peacefully.
LHO: How can I sleep peacefully if I don't know what you think? With you, everything depends on your mood. We have to decide one way or the other once and for all.
Wife: Idiot, you don't understand anything (mimics him) Property, property.
LHO: You don't understand this concept of property. You don't know yourself what you want. I want to live there because the standard of living is high.
Wife: And did you think that you would come here and you wouldn't have to work and you'd just live? Why didn't you study? You could study, you're just lazy.
LHO: You don't understand anything. People leave this country by the millions. Here are crude people.
Wife: You look at us through dark glasses.
LHO: What dark glasses? That's not true.
Wife: I, for instance, don't say bad things about America. It's just not decent... You have to be a real pig to say bad things about a country which you don't know. And I don't do that.
LHO: Maybe, but there you'll be living with your husband. The standard of living there is high.
Wife: You don't get it. It's not my home. I won't hear sound of Russian being spoken...
LHO:... If you want to go, then go. If not, then don't...
Wife: I won't go... I'm afraid... Even now when Erich comes over and you speak English, I can't take it...
LHO: Oy, you're talking like an old village woman...
Wife... We'll never understand each other...
LHO: If you want to, you'll go!
Wife: Don't yell.
LHO: You're the one who's forcing me to yell. I'm not being coarse with you. You've gotten indecent and bad.
Wife: You're the one...
LHO: No, I was decent and good when I met you. But there was a lot in you that was indecent.
Wife: I don't see it that way. I didn't even kiss Sasha. No one called me indecent. I didn't act like other girls. I didn't have a mother to put me on the right path. Once a week, I was very wicked.
LHO: I understand.
Wife: You just have to be moderate in all things. If only I had known!
LHO: This last month you've changed entirely. No tenderness, nothing. If it weren't for your being pregnant... (doesn't finish his sentence) I can't yell at you in the presence of other people, but you're always saying things about me around other people... And then you tell fairy tales about how I'm going away, how I'm leaving you, that everything's my fault. But even so I want you to be with me. I understand that you are the way you are and tha you can't be any different that you are. (pause) Why do you make yourself out to be so wronged? The most wretched girl in the world! You're talking nonsense.
Wife: To hell with you!
LHO: Ah, you don't respect me.
Wife: Alik, we already fought enough. And now you're at it again.
LHO: You weren't this way before.
Wife: Neither were you.

So, when you say;

11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

I think that Marina Oswald put tremendous pressure on LHO to move to the USA.  She hated the USSR.  She was raised by her grandmother at first, who wanted Marina to be a lady, and her grandmother hated the USSR with a passion.   Marina was an Eastern Orthodox Christian, like her grandmother.   Communism was for the birds, as far as Marina was concerned. 

This was another reason that Marina liked Lee Oswald, IMHO -- Lee never surrendered his USA passport, and he never applied for USSR citizenship -- and most important -- Lee never joined the Communist Party in Russia.   Marina loved that about Lee -- and I have little doubt that Marina believed that deep down inside, Lee wanted to get the hell out of Russia, just like she did.

As much as Marina may have disliked the Russian 'way of life', and as much as she may have been against 'communism', the transcript above surely points away from the thinking that she wanted to get the hell out of Russia. There would have been great fear in her about the language and the lack of 'friends' and the prospect of things breaking down in her marriage - all of which she touches upon above. Perhaps her love for Oswald tipped the balance in favour of leaving for the US, but if the choice was Marina's then I think she would have very much preferred for Oswald to stay in Russia. Why wouldn't Oswald want to stay in Russia? Apart form the feeling of being 'homesick', there would also no doubt be a consideration of his (Marxist) idea not matching the reality of how it really was for him in Russia.

11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

So -- there was pressure.  But there was also immaturity. 

Yep, immaturity indeed. Not only that but I feel there would also be a huge disparity between the ideological position and the reality of things - a disparity between the self-perception and the perception others see of him. That, I feel, is borne out by many examples previous... and also borne out by the bit you mention about his writing and the 'want' to be Bond (which I will come back to later on. )

Regards

[Paul Trejo]

16 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...Yep, immaturity indeed. Not only that but I feel there would also be a huge disparity between the ideological position and the reality of things - a disparity between the self-perception and the perception others see of him. That, I feel, is borne out by many examples previous... and also borne out by the bit you mention about his writing and the 'want' to be Bond (which I will come back to later on. )

Regards

Alistair,

I'd like to underscore the charge of LHO's immaturity by underscoring the fact of his blatant neglect of Marina Oswald and baby June.

Not just the financial and medical neglect -- that was bad enough -- and not just the four-month period in which LHO beat Marina Oswald (as she testified, along with many others).

I want to focus here on the charge by Marina Oswald -- which she confided in Ruth Paine from March 1963 until September 1963 -- that LHO was continually threatening to send Marina Oswald back to the USSR without him.

In this context, LHO would force Marina (says Marina) to write letters to the USSR Embassy in Washington DC, asking them for permission to return to the USSR.   There were many such letters, as the WC discovered.

Marina says that she was forced to write them all.  She hated the USSR and never wanted to return.   LHO himself would mail them.

It seems to me that LHO was playing cat and mouse with Marina for much of 1963.   It seems to me that LHO was struggling mightily to keep Marina Oswald "under his thumb."  She was continually wiggling to get out from under his clutches, so he kept increasing the pressure.

This shameful behavior (assuming it is true) does not show any love from LHO toward Marina Oswald -- but only the will to domination.

The one thing she clearly loved was the USA.  LHO seems to tease Marina with threats of deportation in hopes of controlling her.

This is significant.  Nor was it a 1963 development, since it was widely objected among the Russian Expatriates in Dallas that LHO discouraged Marina from learning English -- even though all the Russian Expatriates encouraged her to learn English (including George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt).   This started the moment the couple arrived in the USA.  

So, LHO's insecurity -- and perhaps even envy of Marina's education -- appears to be a consistent factor in their relationship in the USA.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Alistair Briggs]

19 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

...

So, LHO's insecurity -- and perhaps even envy of Marina's education -- appears to be a consistent factor in their relationship in the USA.

There is much in your full previous comment Paul that is accurate but maybe, just maybe, need to be put more in to some form of context - for example, the financial and medical neglect; it has to be remembered that Oswald was not well off in the slightest and thus such 'neglect' is borne of circumstances moreso than some 'psychological need of 'domination''... I mean, flip it round, would there still be that 'neglect' if Oswald had a high paying job? Unlikely! Kind of similar to the 'four month period of 'abuse'' - not to excuse such behaviour (whether verbal or physical abuse) - it's just, it would, by definition, be a difficult time for them for many reasons... all in all there would be 'mitigating' circumstances.

Anyway, the learning of English by Marina, and the alleged stopping of it by Oswald is quite intriguing. One would imagine it would be in Marina's best interests to learn English seen as she was now living in an English speaking country - the question would then become why would Oswald not want her to have that freedom? Could it be simply because he thought that by her having that freedom it may have meant that she would have the freedom to leave him... the irony of that is that by trying to stop such a freedom would be the best way to make her leave him... etc etc. A cat and mouse game indeed...

And yet, having said all of that, from the time they 'escaped' the Russian community, perhaps there were indications that they were turning the corner. If only Oswald could settle in to a job that could have allowed them a better lifestyle then they could have worked through their issues...

... maybe, just maybe,

 

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/22/2017 at 5:41 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

There is much in your full previous comment Paul that is accurate but maybe, just maybe, need to be put more in to some form of context - for example, the financial and medical neglect; it has to be remembered that Oswald was not well off in the slightest and thus such 'neglect' is borne of circumstances moreso than some 'psychological need of 'domination''... I mean, flip it round, would there still be that 'neglect' if Oswald had a high paying job? Unlikely! Kind of similar to the 'four month period of 'abuse'' - not to excuse such behaviour (whether verbal or physical abuse) - it's just, it would, by definition, be a difficult time for them for many reasons... all in all there would be 'mitigating' circumstances.

Anyway, the learning of English by Marina, and the alleged stopping of it by Oswald is quite intriguing. One would imagine it would be in Marina's best interests to learn English seen as she was now living in an English speaking country - the question would then become why would Oswald not want her to have that freedom? Could it be simply because he thought that by her having that freedom it may have meant that she would have the freedom to leave him... the irony of that is that by trying to stop such a freedom would be the best way to make her leave him... etc etc. A cat and mouse game indeed...

And yet, having said all of that, from the time they 'escaped' the Russian community, perhaps there were indications that they were turning the corner. If only Oswald could settle in to a job that could have allowed them a better lifestyle then they could have worked through their issues...

... maybe, just maybe,

Alistair,

I certainly agree with you that if LHO had been financially comfortable, he would never have abused his family the way he did.

Was it abuse?  Yes, because even poverty cannot excuse his behavior.

Take for example the WC testmony of Russian Expatriate community member Lydia Dymitruk, then 37.  She became involved when baby June had a fever -- of 103 degrees.  At this time LHO was working at JCS and was at work.   Lydia rushed Marina and June to Parkland Hospital in her car about 10am.  The nurse said they had no Pediatrician on duty, and they could return in the evening, or go a this Children's Hospital, and gave them the address.  

So they took baby June to a Children's hospital, but the waiting room was overflowing, and they refused to move June up in the line.  So, Marina had to get back home and asked Lydia to try again later that evening.  Lydia agreed.  Here is some of her testimony.

Mr. JENNER. He spoke pretty good Russian?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. So--and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby. And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay." So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and they were fighting in the living room--what to do--to go or not to go...
Mr. JENNER. He did not want to go?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right." So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He--the doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray--a lung X-ray and, I don't know, all kind of tests, right away. So, on the way back--he got some kind of papers, I think it was two copies or three copies of papers----
Mr. JENNER. From the hospital?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. From the doctor to go to the service desk.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. So, at the service desk--he was standing here [indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the baby. So---and the service desk asked question--the address and if he's working, and he said "No."
Mr. JENNER. Not working?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment--do you get some unemployment money?" He said, "No." And she said, "Well, how do you live then?" He said, "Well, friends helping me." And Marina--she was behind me and she says, "What a xxxx!" And they argue again.
Mr. JENNER. They argued--between the two of them?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes, in Russian language.
Mr. JENNER. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just told us?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's what she told. That's what she told.
Mr. JENNER. Did he hear her say that--is what I'm----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes--because then they were in argument.
Mr. JENNER. Then, they got in an argument?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what was the argument about?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Well, about the that he is not working--because he was lying.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did he say why he lied?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. No; no. He didn't say anything. So, that piece of paper--he received some kind of paper----
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. DYMITRUK. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I think so--but he put it in his pocket.
Mr. JENNER. He put the paper in his pocket?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. In his pocket. And so we came out and I brought them home and I didn't come into the house.
Mr. JENNER. They just got out of the car and went in?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes. They didn't say anything---thank you or what--- anything.
Mr. JENNER. To you?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Nothing.
Mr. JENNER. They just got out?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is free. It's suppose to be free here, too." I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted.
Mr. JENNER. You were disgusted----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With him?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was disgusted with him ---

Now, Alistair, I realize that money issues can make great stress -- but baby June was in dire straits, and LHO just expected her to get over it.  He really did have a job.  He could have taken on a debt for his own baby -- but he refused.  That was unlovely.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

23 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I certainly agree with you that if LHO had been financially comfortable, he would never have abused his family the way he did.

Was it abuse?  Yes, because even poverty cannot excuse his behavior.

--------------------

 baby June was in dire straits, and LHO just expected her to get over it.  He really did have a job.  He could have taken on a debt for his own baby -- but he refused.  That was unlovely.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT.  .........She had some hundred dresses.
Mr. JENNER. A large number of dresses?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. About a hundred dresses.
When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. In addition to dresses and clothing, what other things?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I remember. She had a baby carriage.

--------------------

Not bad for a working class schlepp who was trying to make his way up and out of the life of a discharged marine, who knew three languages, and was trying to work his way into an intelligence niche within the White Russian community. Lee was probably a bit too proud to play the poh' boy, but he was doing his job. He may have been doing it too well.

#######  FYI, TREJO HAS ME ON IGNORE #########

Cheers,

Michael

Edited March 24, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

Unedited and bumped

[Alistair Briggs]

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Not bad for a working class schlepp who was trying to make his way up and out of the life of a discharged marine, who knew three languages, and was trying to work his way into an intelligence niche within the White Russian community. Lee was probably a bit too proud to play the poh' boy, but he was doing his job. He may have been doing it too well.

If Oswald was indeed trying to work his way into an intelligence niche within the White Russian community would he not try and be overly friendly with them to initiate himself within the group as much as possible - yet, to all intents and purposes, it would seem, that he did the polar opposite; from reading through the WC testimony of the 'White Russian Community' quite the picture of Oswald emerges, a picture that paints him in a rather 'unfriendly light'... that may be down to the circumstances of course... I can imagine someone like Oswald may well have been the kind of person who didn't like the 'charity' being offered, he would have been too 'stubborn' to accept the help that circumstances may have dictated were needed...

... the part of the WC testimony of Lydia Dymitruk highlights something quite telling imo. Here is the next wee bit of it as well as it ties in with it...

Quote

Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is free. It's suppose to be free here, too." I didn't like that at all. I was disgusted.
Mr. JENNER. You were disgusted----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With him?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. I was disgusted with him [laughing]----
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of his argument was that these things were free in Russia----
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And they should be free in the United States?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he shouldn't be paying?
Mrs. DYMITRUK. Yes; that's what he figures.

It's not a bad point Oswald is making, if it's free in Russia why is it not free in America, why should he be required to pay in America if he wouldn't need to if he was in Russia... thinking it should be free in the US is a good thing, but ipso facto it wasn't free and, 'when in Rome'...

... Paul infers that Oswald wouldn't pay, but perhaps it is more likely that he couldn't pay. Perhaps it was his 'stubborness' that stopped him asking for help from the White Russian Community on this count, which is somewhat ironic because they seemed to be more than willing to help - Marina's dental work for example - and as an other example, the clothes and baby stuff that they gave to them, well, not really 'them', it's more like Marina and baby really. There seemed to be, in quite a short period of time, no love lost between the White Russian community and Lee Oswald because of his attitude but a lot of 'concern' for Marina. If Lee had just swallowed his pride a bit and had been a bit more appreciative of the help being given then things could have been different... on the flip side, had the White Russian Community not been so interfeering then things could have been different. I tend to see it from both points of view. lol

Anyroads;

as mentioned in the part of George DeMohrenschildt's WC testimony that you quote: " my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas." - in furtherance to that I would like to take this opportunity to quote another passage from his WC testimony and one from the WC testimony of his wife.

Quote

Mr. JENNER. The attitudes she had, and the attitude he had.
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people were interested in him, you see. That very often---he worked in a TV factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was that type of an individual who needed attention.
Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than he did--- as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It was a livable way of life.
Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was getting more and more things from people people like the Clarks, like ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.

Quote

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about Lee Oswald.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. What I think of the fellow?
Mr. JENNER. Your impressions of him, what you thought of him.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable, and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses given. to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't have one-hundredth of what Marina had because I didn't know anybody, and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was throwing it into his face.
Mr. JENNER. She was?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Absolutely--see people, how nice they are? And she is always telling me the people are nice, giving all these things, and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. He worked overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running around.
He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very difficult personality.
And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive attitude to him.
I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, he could have killed us.

The way I look at it is that the 'White Russian Community' were trying to be helpful, and Marina was certainly grateful for the help, but the help was too helpful to the point that it was 'counter-productive' and Lee certainly wasn't grateful for the help because he saw it as interfeering, and he was not wrong.

Regards

P.S. sorry to hear Paul has put you on ignore. I will have a word with him.

[Alistair Briggs]

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Now, Alistair, I realize that money issues can make great stress -- but baby June was in dire straits, and LHO just expected her to get over it.  He really did have a job.  He could have taken on a debt for his own baby -- but he refused.  That was unlovely.

I know what you are saying Paul, he could indeed have taken on a 'debt' for his own baby... well, he should have done so as surely a child's health is of the upmost importance... yet as we have already been discussing, Oswald was not exactly 'mature'...  yet I can understand his objection to paying also - that's not to condone it of course, it's just I can understand it. I'm sure that there are plenty of other examples out there of people doing the exact same thing - it probably happens all the time - it's just highlighted more in the case of Oswald because of how his life ended up...

In Michael's last post he included the following line: " trying to make his way up and out of the life of a discharged marine, ", one thing that is perhaps of note there is the knock on effect that the type of discharge would have in terms of getting certain jobs and getting on in life. When he left the Marines it was on a 'Hardship Discharge' (which is still an 'honourable' discharge), but because Oswald, when trying to enter Russia, said he was willing to divulge Navy secrets (which I think he was bluffing about ), his discharge was changed to a 'undersirable discharge'... of course, Oswald thought it had been changed to a 'dishonourable discharge' because that's what his Mother said when she wrote to him...

... his efforts to 'fix' that were, imo, a case of 'all talk no trousers'. lol

 

 

[Michael Clark]

5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

If Oswald was indeed trying to work his way into an intelligence niche within the White Russian community would he not try and be overly friendly with them to initiate himself within the group as much as possible - yet, to all intents and purposes, it would seem, that he did the polar opposite; from reading through the WC testimony of the 'White Russian Community' quite the picture of Oswald emerges, a picture that paints him in a rather 'unfriendly light'... that may be down to the circumstances of course... I can imagine someone like Oswald may well have been the kind of person who didn't like the 'charity' being offered, he would have been too 'stubborn' to accept the help that circumstances may have dictated were needed...

... the part of the WC testimony of Lydia Dymitruk highlights something quite telling imo. Here is the next wee bit of it as well as it ties in with it...

It's not a bad point Oswald is making, if it's free in Russia why is it not free in America, why should he be required to pay in America if he wouldn't need to if he was in Russia... thinking it should be free in the US is a good thing, but ipso facto it wasn't free and, 'when in Rome'...

... Paul infers that Oswald wouldn't pay, but perhaps it is more likely that he couldn't pay. Perhaps it was his 'stubborness' that stopped him asking for help from the White Russian Community on this count, which is somewhat ironic because they seemed to be more than willing to help - Marina's dental work for example - and as an other example, the clothes and baby stuff that they gave to them, well, not really 'them', it's more like Marina and baby really. There seemed to be, in quite a short period of time, no love lost between the White Russian community and Lee Oswald because of his attitude but a lot of 'concern' for Marina. If Lee had just swallowed his pride a bit and had been a bit more appreciative of the help being given then things could have been different... on the flip side, had the White Russian Community not been so interfeering then things could have been different. I tend to see it from both points of view. lol

Anyroads;

as mentioned in the part of George DeMohrenschildt's WC testimony that you quote: " my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas." - in furtherance to that I would like to take this opportunity to quote another passage from his WC testimony and one from the WC testimony of his wife.

The way I look at it is that the 'White Russian Community' were trying to be helpful, and Marina was certainly grateful for the help, but the help was too helpful to the point that it was 'counter-productive' and Lee certainly wasn't grateful for the help because he saw it as interfeering, and he was not wrong.

Regards

P.S. sorry to hear Paul has put you on ignore. I will have a word with him.

I have a hard time saying one way or another what is going on with Oswald. I don't know what behaviors are Oswalds and what is a ploy. I seem to think that George De M.'s was as he stated, he would have gotten Lee a job in the oil business. As it was, it seems that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. I think he was desirous of getting, and actually was, in the intelligence business. I don't think he was that interested in being cozy with the Russian's in Dallas. It was part of his job.

Cheers,

Michael

[Alistair Briggs]

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I have a hard time saying one way or another what is going on with Oswald. I don't know what behaviors are Oswalds and what is a ploy. I seem to think that George De M.'s was as he stated, he would have gotten Lee a job in the oil business. As it was, it seems that he was doing what he was supposed to be doing. I think he was desirous of getting, and actually was, in the intelligence business. I don't think he was that interested in being cozy with the Russian's in Dallas. It was part of his job.

This may be a presumption on my part, but I would have thought that had Oswald's job been in the intelligence business, part of that job be to get 'intel' on the Russian community' and if so would he not 'buddy' up to them... yet as you say he was not interested in being cozy with the Russian's... so what was his job then? A double-bluff? lol To me it just seems that Oswald's behaviour drove the Russian Community away from him, perhaps that was his plan all along, for whatever reason.

Certainly though, the more I delve in to the world of Oswald the more, I too, have a hard time saying one way or another what is going on with Oswald.

Regards

Edited March 24, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Michael Clark]

10 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

This may be a presumption on my part, but I would have thought that had Oswald's job been in the intelligence business, part of that job be to get 'intel' on the Russian community' and if so would he not 'buddy' up to them... yet as you say he was not interested in being cozy with the Russian's... so what was his job then? A double-bluff? lol To me it just seems that Oswald's behaviour drove the Russian Community away from him, perhaps that was his plan all along, for whatever reason.

Certainly though, the more I delve in to the world of Oswald the more, I too, have a hard time saying one way or another what is going on with Oswald.

Regards

I really don't know. But, his purported Marxist leanings would not mesh well with White Russians, in any case. If White Russians had a hand in any part of the plot, their job would be to suffer his presence and besmirch his character until he was dispensed with.

Cheers,

Michael

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I really don't know. But, his purported Marxist leanings would not mesh well with White Russians, in any case. If White Russians had a hand in any part of the plot, their job would be to suffer his presence and besmirch his character until he was dispensed with.

Cheers,

Michael

Michael,

A careful reading of all the WC testimony from these 19 Russian Expatriates who knew LHO fairly well from July 1962 to December 1962 (when most of them cut LHO and Marina out of their lives forever) completely agrees with your intuition here.

The average Russian Expatriate (sometimes known as White Russians, because so many came from Byelo Russia, or BelaRuss, which means White Russia) was like the average Cuban Expatriate -- a refugee because of Communism. 

They hated Communists with a purple passion.   They were therefore among the most loyal of American citizens during the Cold War.  The US Government did not fear them -- in fact -- many of them would willingly cooperate with the FBI, offering information and requesting information. They tended to be hard-working and well-to-do.

For example, Max and Gali Clark (she was Russian) were both lawyers, and were among the first to come into contact with LHO in Fort Worth.  They immediately called the FBI to ensure that LHO was "safe,"   Once they verified LHO was safe, Marina was then surrounded by well-wishers and charity gifts galore from the local White Russians..

Some White Russian Expatriates in Dallas refused to have anything to do with LHO and Marina -- because anybody from Russia was suspicious to them, and because LHO was a weird Marine who "defected."  Nothing doing, they said.  But they knew others in the White Russian community there, and that is why they testified for the WC.  Igor and Natasha Voshinin were two.  There were others.

LHO was an ignoramus.  He liked to boast about being a "Marxist but not a Communist."  That only confused people, and LHO knew it, and he liked feeling superior.  So, LHO made only one single friend in the White Russian community, namely, George DeMorhenschildt (DeM).

George DeM was a strange bird.  He also liked to shock people.  He himself was born into an Aristocratic family in Minsk (White Russia) and when he was a boy his family lost their enormous landed estate to the Communists.  They had to flee to Western Europe. 

At first, George DeM and his older brother did what they could to help the Nazi movement, in hopes of defeating the Communists and getting their land back.  That not only failed miserably, but when the Nazi army got to Russia, they slaughtered 1/5 of the population mercilessly -- more death than any other nation in World War Two.

So, when the Nazi's failed, the two brothers were disillusioned -- now they hated German Nazis as much as Russian Communists.  So, they decided to move to America.   George's older brother did very well for himself.  George did only so-so.  He always wanted to get super-rich, but he never completely made it.  And he had an attitude. 

George DeM was slick and suave and had many friends -- but mainly he looked down his nose at everybody, and liked to make fun of people.  For example, he and Jeanne would go to Church wearing tennis shorts.  It was what he did.   In his Bohemian Club in Dallas, George DeM openly gave a speech extolling the virtues of Goebbels (IIRC) while directly addressing the only table with Jewish members sitting there.   It was what he did.  He liked to shock people, and he admitted it.

That was perhaps one reason that George DeM would take LHO and Marina to engineer's parties in Dallas.  It was like a circus sideshow -- come see the Marine defector -- and LHO loved being the center of attention. 

Some think that the CIA asked George DeM to babysit LHO, and ensure he wasn't dangerous -- and in exchange for this George DeM got an exclusive contract with the Haitian government to explore for oil.  This contract was worth $250,000, which is $2.5 million in today's money.  It was George's big break.  He took it.

But George could not help himself from meddling into LHO's life.  From the time he took Marina and June away from LHO in late 1962, to the time that he pushed and pushed LHO to hate and despise General Walker in early 1963.  George DeM could not leave well enough alone.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 25, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

23 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I really don't know. But, his purported Marxist leanings would not mesh well with White Russians, in any case. If White Russians had a hand in any part of the plot, their job would be to suffer his presence and besmirch his character until he was dispensed with.

I agree that his purported Marxist leanings would not mesh well with the White Russians... as to whether they had any hand in any part of the plot though, I am yet to be convinced, well, maybe not the White Russians as a totality - perhaps one or two had some part, but maybe indirectly, idk... but yeah, they certainly did suffer his presence and besmirch his character...

... how much of the character besmirching was exaggerated though? I think it's fair to say that if people have a low opinion of someone they tend to 'highlight' their bad points more than maybe is required and that leads me to thing that there would have been a fair bit of exaggerating going on about the kind of person Oswald was. I don't think they were making stuff up though, I mean, if they were part of a plot (to frame Oswald) would they not be a bit more forthcoming with things that would actually frame him? Unless I'm missing something, there seems to be little across the board that would in anyway incriminate Oswald as a potential assassin of the President.

Being a lousy husband and having an attitude problem - or as Paul said, being an ignoramus - and being somewhat immature.. that's what the White Russian community seem to be saying about Oswald... what they aren't saying is just as important... they aren't saying that Oswald spoke often about a hatred of America or a hatred of Kennedy, they aren't saying that he was often out practicing with his rifle, they aren't saying that they thought, after the event, that he was capable of doing such a thing.

Anyway, always glad to have your input Michael

Regards

[Michael Clark]

26 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

... what they aren't saying is just as important... they aren't saying that Oswald spoke often about a hatred of America or a hatred of Kennedy, they aren't saying that he was often out practicing with his rifle, they aren't saying that they thought, after the event, that he was capable of doing such a thing.

Anyway, always glad to have your input Michael

Regards

Thanks Alistair,

The point quoted above is very well taken.

I can't help but think that some of the White Russians had hopes of returning to Russia some day under a system of 19th century politics, with a landed aristocracy. This hope may be the source and extent of their "involvement" in any effort to remove JFK from power.

Cheers,

Michael