• Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
Robert Prudhomme

Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure??

32 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Paul, which statement by  Baker do you think he was being truthful about?

 

His first day affidavit where he said he saw a man walking away from the stairs on the third or fourth floor,

("As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.")

or his later Warren Commission statement where he said he saw a man inside the doorway on the second floor.

(Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.)

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 3/7/2017 at 2:40 AM, Bill Miller said:

The thing is that there were only a few people in the RR Yard at the time of the shooting. Two of those individuals was referenced by Lee Bowers. The work of Jack White and Gary Mack, along with Gordon Arnold's saying that a shot came by his left ear is evidence that there was one or two more people along the stretch of fence that Arnold stood in front of.

My thoughts on the shots from the knoll:

I believe that the area in front of Lee Bowers was where the first shot came from. Lee mentions a puff smoke or a flash of light at this location that caught his attention. This is the area of the fence that connected the walkway to the Underpass. It is also the same area where the men on the Underpass had seen smoke drift out from under the trees'

If Mack and White's work is valid, which I think it is, then  Badge Man fired a fraction of a second after the kill shot. I say this for several reasons ....

1 -  It's something like .0017th of a second for a muzzle flash to occur. That is less than 1/18th of a second. So for Moorman to have captured the head shot with her camera - there should have been no muzzle flash because 3.6 Zapruder frames ran after the head exploded and before Moorman snapped her cameras shutter.

2 -  Edna Hartman said to researcher Mark Oakes that she witnessed a furrow in the grass on the south pasture that led back towards the large tree above the walkway. Kellerman described the last two shots as coming over the top of one another. He compared them to a plane breaking the sound barrier .... Boom - Boom!  That bullet must have missed all together in order to create a furrow in the ground much like one would see if a mole was tunneling just under the earth.

Bill, 

I entirely agree with the testimony and evidence indicating shots from behind the picket fence of the Grassy Knoll, in the parking lot part of the railroad yard, so close to the railroad tracks just west of the TSBD.

I accept the truth-value of the WC testimony of Lee Bowers.

I find Jack White and Gary Mack to be among our most valuable JFK research resources in this context. 

As for fine-tuning the sequence of shots and the timing of the shots as you have done, however, is above my pay-grade.  I don't have a similar theory to match yours.  If you permit me, I will adopt yours, and if I find questions in the course of further study, I'll bring them to you for your consideration.

That said -- although most of the WC witnesses from Dealey Plaza claimed that they hear three shots, with the last two occurring very close together in timing -- their testimony was not unanimous. Emmet Hudson, for example, was standing right next to JFK when JFK's head was torn off, and Emmet said he was certain that there were four shots.

The puff of smoke testimony between Lee Bowers and the railroad men on the top of the triple underpass is conclusive, IMHO.  There was at least one shot from that position.  I take that as a certainty.

Yet as I say, I haven't developed a clear sequence of shots yet.  I'll go with your theory for now.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

That said -- although most of the WC witnesses from Dealey Plaza claimed that they hear three shots, with the last two occurring very close together in timing -- their testimony was not unanimous. Emmet Hudson, for example, was standing right next to JFK when JFK's head was torn off, and Emmet said he was certain that there were four shots.

Millican claimed ti have heard as many as 6 shots which is what the acoustics ended up finding. No one will ever know or sure.

What I do want to say is that when the Movie JFK was made .... depending on where witnesses were positioned throughout the Plaza determined on the number of shots they heard. This information was told to me by Robert Groden. It seems to me that Robert told me they did 23 or 33 test firings. I will ask him again because I hate guessing, but the number was at least 23 and the result was always the same. People at one end of Elm didn't hear shots from the knoll and visa versa.

The first sound of a shot kit JFK in the throat. He knew it hit him there for he appeared to be pointing to it in both Altgen's 6 and in the Zapruder film.

But before then and just as the President comes out from behind the road sign his mouth is open and his hands are already starting up towards his mouth where he appears to cough as if to dislodge something in his throat.

Z222toZ233cleaned.gif

Z240.jpg

 

Connally said he heard the first shot and glanced over his right shoulder but couldn't see the President, so he started to turn back the other way when he was hit. The moment the shot hit the governor drove his right shoulder forward and down while his left rose a few inches. (see below)

Connallyheadturnnormal.gif

The moment Connally is hit -

jbchittothechestzc8.gif

 

The kill shot happened when two shots were said by witnesses to come over the top of one another. SS Agent Kellerman described it as the sound a plane makes when it breaks the sound barrier - Boom ... Boom!  One that hit the President in the top of the head and the other missing and creating the furrow in the grass on the south pasture that Edna Hartman saw.

Then there is the shot that hit the chrome strip between the two sun visors and the missed shot that hit down by the underpass where Tague was standing. And oddly enough when these are added together - they total "6" shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Bill,

I can easily accept a theory of six shots.  IMHO, it was two shots that tore JFK's head off -- one from behind, and one from the front.   The one from behind was a full-metal jacket, and the one from the front was a frangible (exploding) bullet.   

IMHO, one reason that the Bethesda doctors would never release JFK's brain for legal examination was that the evidence too clearly showed evidence of multiple bullets -- and the FBI "Lone Nut" theory could not accept this outcome.  So, JFK's brain "went missing."

Also, I suspect that most of the Dealey Plaza witnesses testified to three shots -- and that the last two shots came close together for two key reasons:

(1) the WC hearings were delayed for months after the JFK assassination occurred; and

(2) the WC witnesses at Dealey Plaza had plenty of time to talk to each other and compare notes.

The gossip around Dallas in December 1963 was that there were three shots (that the Dallas Police insisted on) and that the final two came quickly upon one another.   Therefore, this became common "knowledge," as if "everybody knows" this.  This influenced the WC testimony, I believe.

Certainly not all Dealey Plaza witnesses repeated this story -- but most did -- and their sentences are so similar and often identical that it almost seemed as though they were coordinated -- or at least became part of the Zeitgeist of Dallas in December, 1963, and a sort of Dallas dogma by 1964, when the WC hearings were held.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
1963

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I don't quite see the sequence of shots as Bill described it.  I agree the throat shot hits when Bill says and then the head bobbing back and forth is I believe the force of the back shot slamming into him 1/2 second after the throat shot. I agree where JBC is hit - much later than JFK and obviously nullifying the SBT.

Here's a video I made for another thread but it shows the head bobbing.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxa3NqTEpScWNQZnc

Edited by Michael Walton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Bill,

I can easily accept a theory of six shots.  IMHO, it was two shots that tore JFK's head off -- one from behind, and one from the front.   The one from behind was a full-metal jacket, and the one from the front was a frangible (exploding) bullet.   

IMHO, one reason that the Bethesda doctors would never release JFK's brain for legal examination was that the evidence too clearly showed evidence of multiple bullets -- and the FBI "Lone Nut" theory could not accept this outcome.  So, JFK's brain "went missing."

To address the brain and what you said about Bethesda, I can only say that  Paul O'Conner said that when they removed the President from the shipping casket ... and had him on the table ... Paul said there was no brain to remove.

In Dallas the doctors said that a quarter or more of the brain had been blasted out. Yet when the President arrived for the autopsy - the brain was not present. In Lifton's book called "Best Evidence", he shows a photo that was taken of a small lump under a sheet and on a gurney that was taken into the Morgue. Lifton said the official word was that a still-born baby had been brought in at the same time the President was there. However, Lifton went on to say that there were no records from any of the hospitals in the area that a still-born baby had been delivered by anyone in the days prior or on the day of the assassination. Lifton felt that a brain had been taken to the Morgue and placed into the cranium of JFK.  And as I recall when the autopsy started, the President was now in the casket he had been in at Parkland when he left there. So when the brain was weighed it had a weight of a normal sized brain. The problem is that in Dallas a good portion of the brain (25%+) had been blasted out, thus the remaining portion of the brain would weigh 25% less than a normal brain.

So I agree that the initial brain would have yielded clues as from where the President was shot, it was the second 'full' brain that had to go missing or else there would have been a big problem as to how it became in-tact when so much of it had been reported missing back at Parkland.

 

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Also, I suspect that most of the Dealey Plaza witnesses testified to three shots -- and that the last two shots came close together for two key reasons:

(1) the WC hearings were delayed for months after the JFK assassination occurred; and

(2) the WC witnesses at Dealey Plaza had plenty of time to talk to each other and compare notes.

The above may have been possible, but it may have been because of where they were located at the time of the shooting. And some witnesses stayed true to they hearing more than three shots fired, as well as the spacing of the shots where there was a pause and then the next two came very close together.

 

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

The gossip around Dallas in December 1963 was that there were three shots (that the Dallas Police insisted on) and that the final two came quickly upon one another.   Therefore, this became common "knowledge," as if "everybody knows" this.  This influenced the WC testimony, I believe.

Certainly not all Dealey Plaza witnesses repeated this story -- but most did -- and their sentences are so similar and often identical that it almost seemed as though they were coordinated -- or at least became part of the Zeitgeist of Dallas in December, 1963, and a sort of Dallas dogma by 1964, when the WC hearings were held.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

There were plenty of witnesses who said the shots were evenly spaced apart as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I don't quite see the sequence of shots as Bill described it.  I agree the throat shot hits when Bill says and then the head bobbing back and forth is I believe the force of the back shot slamming into him 1/2 second after the throat shot. I agree where JBC is hit - much later than JFK and obviously nullifying the SBT.

The official stance was that JFK and Connally was hit by the first shot (SBT), that the President had an immediate reaction and that Connally had a delayed reaction, But Dr. Cyril Wecht said that when a bullet slams into bone - the reaction is immediate. The term is the 'Transfer of Momentum' or the 'Transfer of Energy'. I often describe the shooting of a cue ball into another ball - the reaction when one ball hits the other is immediate. One can have a delayed reaction to a stimulus, but hit someone in the back of the head or in she shoulder and they won't pause before movement occurs.

I believe it was Mary Woodard to said the President was smiling and waving at her and the ladies that were with her when the first shout sounded. The the President reacted by immediately bringing his hand towards his face at that instant. That reaction is seen on the Zapruder film. (see below)

Nellielookingrightatfirstshot.gif

woodard.gif

 

And Kennedy as he first comes into view from behind the road sign. His hands are in front of him and his mouth is open.  (see below)

Z225insert.jpg

I think Woodward nailed it in her description.

 

Then after coming out from behind the road sign - Connally experiences what he described as a blow to his back. His right shoulder is driven forward and down causing his left shoulder to rise,

Z222toZ233cleaned.gif

Two bullets - two different times - two separate shots.

 

JFK as seen in Altgens appears to be pointing to his wound. The same can be seen in the Zapruder film. I regret that I do not have my enlargements with me to show this finger point from the Zapruder film.

JFK%20index%20finger_zps9tuzjxnv.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

 

Here is a low resolution clip with the gunshots included. These shots were determined from witness statements and photos.

1 - The first shot came between Betzer's photo and Willis's photo.

2 - The second shot comes at the moment Connally's shoulder is driven forward and down

3 - The third shot comes between Z312 and Z313 when Kennedy's explodes

4 - The next shot comes when Moorman took her photo that captured what appeared to be a muzzle flash at the Badge Man location. Three and four allows the listener to her what Kellerman described as a Sonic Boom .... Bang - Bang!  Two shots almost over the top of the other.

Click onto the image to start the film clip with gunshots inserted.

th_zapruderwithgunshots_0001.mp4

 

Edited by Bill Miller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry Bill but I'm going to disagree with you again.  It would have been impossible for ANY shots to have been fired from the supposed sniper's nest at that point because of the tree.  There's no way that the planners would have risked an intricate plan to make this happen only to start firing early without a clear shot from up there. They had to know this; otherwise they would have risked the official story being off if they started firing too soon and later the cops going up there and finding out the tree would have been in the way. If they had gone as far as stuffing a rifle between boxes and throwing down shells, they'd have to have known to look out the window and say, "Yep, don't start firing until such and such a time."

Watch, too, many of the other film clips of him before Dealey Plaza - he was fluffing his hair, sitting back, leaning forward...at one point he pointed backwards as he was carrying on a brief chat with JBC.  The point being - he was moving around throughout the entire parade.  What you're saying about his hand coming up to his face is nothing more than him giving a brief wave to the ladies over on the right side and then his hand just stopping as he's looking around.  That's all.  I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that one of them said, "We yelled out and he looked over at us and waved."  That's what you're seeing. And he did this numerous times previously - you can see a pretty decent full parade here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOA7QOCJtv0

Also I found this photo and synched it up with Z-225 and it's a near match, meaning this was all normal movement from him as seen previously during the parade.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-CxYXR5WWxkZ05QRkU

There's no sudden and dramatic action from him until his hands snap up to his throat and face, and then he lunges forward from the back shot.  Also, your reply seems to imply the back shot or one of Kennedy's hits also hits JBC.  Please don't tell me you think or believe in the SBT?  Like you said on another thread, we're all entitled to believe in what we want, but I'll be very surprised if a so-called photo expert - as folks tend to call you around here - would be this gullible. 

As for witnesses, this may sound like cherry picking but I simply cannot buy into all witnesses' statements.  I've always told myself that this was an extremely quick action in that period starting at Z225 until the head shots.  Totally out of the blue and unexpected. It's not like these ladies were standing around - and everyone for that matter - saying, "OK, wait!  Let's all pay attention now.  Here come the shots.  Remember everything!" Memories, nerves, confusion, and so on are definitely going to factor into these statements.  And one person's saying, "His hand came up to face as he was shot" could be another person's saying, "He waved and smiled to me."

You're free to start posting testimony here to make your point but it's not going to change my mind about this. I've read enough statements of stuff elsewhere and I've thought "WTF - were these people really even there?"

Quite honestly, I'm surprised at your reply here.  Not because you disagree with me or our theories differ but because people call you a photo expert here but I'm disappointed at your analysis on this.  I think one of the problems is you're relying too much on witness statements and not taking into account game-changers like what was he doing throughout the parade, the tree, trying to put yourself in the minds of the planners, and so on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

33 - Zapruder frames ( 1.8 seconds )

Z-207 / Z240

z207.jpg

z240.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

To address the brain and what you said about Bethesda, I can only say that  Paul O'Conner said that when they removed the President from the shipping casket ... and had him on the table ... Paul said there was no brain to remove.

In Dallas the doctors said that a quarter or more of the brain had been blasted out. Yet when the President arrived for the autopsy - the brain was not present. In Lifton's book called "Best Evidence", he shows a photo that was taken of a small lump under a sheet and on a gurney that was taken into the Morgue. Lifton said the official word was that a still-born baby had been brought in at the same time the President was there. However, Lifton went on to say that there were no records from any of the hospitals in the area that a still-born baby had been delivered by anyone in the days prior or on the day of the assassination. Lifton felt that a brain had been taken to the Morgue and placed into the cranium of JFK.  And as I recall when the autopsy started, the President was now in the casket he had been in at Parkland when he left there. So when the brain was weighed it had a weight of a normal sized brain. The problem is that in Dallas a good portion of the brain (25%+) had been blasted out, thus the remaining portion of the brain would weigh 25% less than a normal brain.

So I agree that the initial brain would have yielded clues as from where the President was shot, it was the second 'full' brain that had to go missing or else there would have been a big problem as to how it became in-tact when so much of it had been reported missing back at Parkland.

Bill,

Yes, the work by David Lifton (1988) is IMHO far and away the best book of the 20th century on the JFK assassination.   Not only did Professor Lifton nail the weakest link in the "Lone Nut" dogma, but he also kept an open mind in that book, that there might have been a benign explanation for the deliberate deception by the FBI and the US Government in this Cover-up.  I'm a big fan of David Lifton.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Mark Lane began speaking publicly about the assassination I went to hear him. Must have been winter or early spring 1964. He claimed that many witnesses told him that they heard more than 3 shots but were told at the scene by agents in the crowd that there were only 3 shots. Perhaps I misremember when they were told to stick to the 3 shot story, but I have no doubts that Lane reported this in his early presentations. He came equipped with tape recordings of the witnesses he questioned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

There's no sudden and dramatic action from him until his hands snap up to his throat and face, and then he lunges forward from the back shot.  Also, your reply seems to imply the back shot or one of Kennedy's hits also hits JBC.  Please don't tell me you think or believe in the SBT?  Like you said on another thread, we're all entitled to believe in what we want, but I'll be very surprised if a so-called photo expert - as folks tend to call you around here - would be this gullible.

You can believe what you like .... its no big deal. I am only saying that Mary Woodward was right there looking at the President's face as he was smiling and waving to her and the ladies next to her when she heard the first shot and saw the President react to being hit by the bullet. Woodward believed she and her friends was the last thing the President ever saw..

 From the time JFK goes behind the road sign to the point where he emerges is about 2/3rds of a second. Betzner and Willis locked the first shot in between their two photos. There 16 Zapruder frames between those two photos and half of that is 8 frames which is just under .5 seconds. Interesting that Willis said that he could have delayed pressing his shutter by a half a second if I remember correctly. I didn't even mention studies about reaction times to a stimuli like being shot by a small caliber round that didn't hit an bones.

1 - Hugh Betzner said he had just snapped his photo and was going to start to wind his camera before the first loud shot rang out. It is a fact that Betzer's photo equates to Zapruder frame 186.

2 - Phil Willis said that he took his photo after the first loud shot rang out. It is a fact that the Willis photo equates to Zapruder frame 202.

3 - Connally stood his ground when he said he heard the first shot - that he had time to look to his right to see if he could see the President - and just as he was facing just about forward/center during his head turn to then glance over his left shoulder is when he felt the bullet slam into him. His description was like being hit with a doubled up fist.

I have only offered a breakdown of the evidence based on the witnesses statements in conjunction with the Zapruder film for people to consider for themselves. I am of the opinion that while witnesses statements can sometimes vary .... when those statements are supported by photographic evidence .... I must believe the witnesses got it right for the most part.

Edited by Bill Miller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bill, the Z film now makes me and you a "witness" of sorts to the shooting.  I would put more weight into my own analysis of what I see compared to those women.  The car was going past them so they didn't have the advantage of being back from the action.  Plus, they were not standing around expecting any of this to happen, so there's that as well.

Further, can you imagine someone taking a throat shot and just doing...nothing?  That's what I see - nothing is happening where Woodward and the others are looking on and before he goes behind the sign.  And he continues to do nothing until just right after he reappears from behind the sign.  There's no stress, no nothing from anyone until his hands start to fly up to his face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Bill, the Z film now makes me and you a "witness" of sorts to the shooting.  I would put more weight into my own analysis of what I see compared to those women.  The car was going past them so they didn't have the advantage of being back from the action.  Plus, they were not standing around expecting any of this to happen, so there's that as well.

They had one advantage over us - the could see JFK"s face with clarity from a distance of 15 feet away so to see any sudden changes in his expression that we cannot.

I can only add that the wound to JFK's throat was what would be referred to as a soft-tissue wound. I believe I have seen data on reaction times to a stimulus to be around 1/2 of a second. From the moment Willis took his photo until the time JFK disappears behind the road sign is .5 seconds. In that time he stopped his smiling and waving and brought his hand inside the car and across his face .... when he emerges from behind the sign ... his hands are clutched in front of him and on their way to his mouth where it appears to me that he tried to cough as if he felt something had entered his throat and he wanted to dislodge it.

Z230.jpg

Edited by Bill Miller

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now