David Andrews Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) Ruth Paine came from a wealthy family. Money was never a problem for her. She regularly took 3-4 month summer vacations with her close-knit family. Why was Ruth hanging out in Dallas in a half-crappy lower middle class house? To reconcile with Michael? To take in needy foreigners? To hang out with Buell Wesley Frazier's relatives? Wasn't there something better for Ruth Paine to be doing, like with her high-class, close-knit family? Did Ruth Paine have a career, or was she just a housewife in limbo? Edited March 20, 2017 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Just to be clear, the "we both know who's responsible" phone call happened at 1 PM. Oswald would not be publicly ID'ed as a suspect for another 90 minutes or so. It has never been established why either of the Paine's would suspect Oswald's involvement at all, 30 minutes after the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 40 minutes ago, David Andrews said: Ruth Paine came from a wealthy family. Money was never a problem for her. She regularly took 3-4 month summer vacations with her close-knit family. Why was Ruth hanging out in Dallas in a half-crappy lower middle class house? To reconcile with Michael? To take in needy foreigners? To hang out with Buell Wesley Frazier's relatives? Wasn't there something better for Ruth Paine to be doing, like with her high-class, close-knit family? Did Ruth Paine have a career, or was she just a housewife in limbo? I believe she worked for AID in South America. I read this along with some scathing criticism of the results of that "effort". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 39 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said: Just to be clear, the "we both know who's responsible" phone call happened at 1 PM. Oswald would not be publicly ID'ed as a suspect for another 90 minutes or so. It has never been established why either of the Paine's would suspect Oswald's involvement at all, 30 minutes after the shots. 1 PM? Gosh, great question Jeff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Jeff Carter said: Just to be clear, the "we both know who's responsible" phone call happened at 1 PM. Oswald would not be publicly ID'ed as a suspect for another 90 minutes or so. It has never been established why either of the Paine's would suspect Oswald's involvement at all, 30 minutes after the shots. Jeff, Ruth publicly explained her rationale in her WC testimony. So did Michael Paine. When the news broadcast the TSBD as the likely source of the shots, they began to worry. Um, what's your source for your 1pm claim? Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, David Andrews said: Ruth Paine came from a wealthy family. Money was never a problem for her. She regularly took 3-4 month summer vacations with her close-knit family. Why was Ruth hanging out in Dallas in a half-crappy lower middle class house? To reconcile with Michael? To take in needy foreigners? To hang out with Buell Wesley Frazier's relatives? Wasn't there something better for Ruth Paine to be doing, like with her high-class, close-knit family? Did Ruth Paine have a career, or was she just a housewife in limbo? David, Ruth Paine was in love with Michael Paine. She hoped for a reunion. Michael bought that house in Irving because his job at Bell Helicopter was fairly close by. Ruth's family was very conservative and wanted her to reconcile with Michael. Yet she.was definitely bored by her high school dropout neighbors. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 How could Ruth Paine ignore Oswald's incredibly public and hotly inciting political activities in New Orleans just a few months before Dallas on 11,22,1963 ( and which were so illogically removed from his last year and a half of work seeking behavior ) as if they meant nothing in her mind regards her reasoned conclusion that Oswald did JFK just for "notoriety?" Was she that oblivious about them and claiming she just didn't know because Marina would not tell her of such things? I mean Oswald was on New Orleans radio and even TV debating political ideologies and his downtown brawl with Carlos Bringuier was filmed and in the newspapers and he was arrested in that Summer ...and she wasn't aware of this? Oswald's well publicized political activities in New Orleans the Summer of 1963 cannot be ignored as meaningless in the larger picture of Oswald's mind set and actions just 3 months later. Ruth Paine also mentions agent Hosty as if she was on familiar and even friendly terms with him. She knew him from his visits to her home to speak to Marina for a month or two before 11,22,1963. I can't believe that Ruth didn't ask for and get some feedback from Hosty about his reasons for keeping tabs on Marina and Lee. One would think that Ruth kept a closer and more suspicious eye on Lee when he was around her home up until 11,22,1963 and maybe even watched for anything he may say or do because she knew he was being monitored by important government agencies. I wonder if she ever reported anything to Hosty about Lee that she thought was suspicious during the time she was housing Marina and the baby and having Lee visit reguarly on a weekly basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Clark said: I believe she worked for AID in South America. I read this along with some scathing criticism of the results of that "effort". I was thinking about what she was doing in Dallas, summer-fall 1963. In 1980s Central America she was the Recording Angel of the doings of lefty humanitarians, for a readership suspected but never identified. Edited March 20, 2017 by David Andrews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Here is the first report on the Paine phone call - https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57756#relPageId=51&tab=page The time was established as 1 PM by the Paines themselves, several times over the course of their Warren Commission testimony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bauer Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 Jeff. Are you posting this file as some valid documentation verifying what you stated in your previous post? If so, I am confused. This document states that the "who's responsible" call between Ruth and Michael Paine did not take place at 1:PM 11,22,1963. It instead states that the call took place "a day later" and the exact time of the call could not be established. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 I identified the document as the "first" record. I examined this phone call in some detail in the final section of - https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-part-5 Barger incorrectly stated November 23. Phone records later clarified November 22. Both Paines acknowledge collect call from Arlington to Irving on November 22, same phone numbers as Barger's report, and place it at 1 PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, Joe Bauer said: How could Ruth Paine ignore Oswald's incredibly public and hotly inciting political activities in New Orleans just a few months before Dallas on 11,22,1963 ( and which were so illogically removed from his last year and a half of work seeking behavior ) as if they meant nothing in her mind regards her reasoned conclusion that Oswald did JFK just for "notoriety?" Was she that oblivious about them and claiming she just didn't know because Marina would not tell her of such things? I mean Oswald was on New Orleans radio and even TV debating political ideologies and his downtown brawl with Carlos Bringuier was filmed and in the newspapers and he was arrested in that Summer ...and she wasn't aware of this? Oswald's well publicized political activities in New Orleans the Summer of 1963 cannot be ignored as meaningless in the larger picture of Oswald's mind set and actions just 3 months later. Ruth Paine also mentions agent Hosty as if she was on familiar and even friendly terms with him. She knew him from his visits to her home to speak to Marina for a month or two before 11,22,1963. I can't believe that Ruth didn't ask for and get some feedback from Hosty about his reasons for keeping tabs on Marina and Lee. One would think that Ruth kept a closer and more suspicious eye on Lee when he was around her home up until 11,22,1963 and maybe even watched for anything he may say or do because she knew he was being monitored by important government agencies. I wonder if she ever reported anything to Hosty about Lee that she thought was suspicious during the time she was housing Marina and the baby and having Lee visit regularly on a weekly basis. Joe, By the numbers: 1. Why do you say, "incredibly public," Joe? What evidence do you have that New Orleans news was broadcast nationwide? Lee was known in newspapers, radio and TV in New Orleans -- but that local gossip was ignored by ABC, NBC and CBS -- the only national news stations. 2. Ruth Paine had no idea that Lee Harvey Oswald was having great troubles in New Orleans. He was out of work again in August 1963, and Marina was now 7 months pregnant. Marina was miserable. 3. Marina knew that Lee had been arrested -- and that he had no job or income -- and that he was pretending to be a supporter of Fidel Castro (and that she herself forged Alek J. Hidell's "membership card") and that Oswald's Fake FPCC chapter in NOLA had zero real members. Marina was utterly ashamed of all this foolishness. 4. In the many letters that Marina and Ruth exchanged during August, 1963, Marina never told Ruth Paine what Lee was doing -- or even that Lee had lost his job. She did tell Ruth that Lee was forcing her to write to the USSR Embassy in Washington to try to "expedite" her deportation. Ruth was very worried about Marina. But Ruth knew nothing about this Fake FPCC in NOLA. 5. The fact is that Ruth Paine tried to presume the best of Lee Oswald in NOLA -- that Lee still had a job at Reily Coffee Company and was working hard to support his family. 6. When Ruth finally visited the Oswald's after her summer vacation back East, she was stunned to learn once again that Lee Oswald was unemployed -- and that Marina, now 8 months pregnant, had not yet seen a doctor, and had no health insurance and no money, and Lee was again going to go to yet another city (he told Ruth it was Houston) to find work. 7. Naturally Ruth again offered her Christian charity to take Marina into her home, and also to register Marina with Parkland Hospital so that Marina could have her next baby in medical safety. 8. Ruth Paine was truly "clueless" and Marina Oswald helped to keep Ruth clueless -- simply because Marina was embarrassed to death. Lee was such a downer. 9. This explains Marina's continual refrain to Ruth Paine after the DPD cops recovered Lee's empty blanket: "I'm so sorry; I'm so sorry; I'm so sorry." 10. Perhaps, Joe, you are imagining that CNN was also available nationwide in 1963. Please bear in mind that all this happened more than a half-century ago. 11. As for FBI agent James Hosty -- Ruth Paine was a Quaker. She was conservative. She respected the FBI fully and completely. Ruth Paine trusted the police, but especially the Federal Government. Ruth Paine loved the USA. 12. James Hosty began to visit Ruth Paine in the first days of November 1963. Ruth Paine invited him into her house, and spoke freely, openly and honestly with him. 13. Ruth Paine knew instinctively why the FBI was keeping tabs on Marina and Lee. Marina was a Soviet citizen who had not yet been naturalized. Lee Oswald had lived in the Soviet Union and subscribed to Communist newspapers from New York City. Ruth knew that the FBI tapped people's mail. 14. The truth is that Ruth Paine never suspected anything bizarre from Lee Harvey Oswald. Ruth saw Lee as a man who was having lots of trouble maintaining his responsibilities toward his wife and children. 14.1. Lee liked to talk about Marxism, but Lee never joined any Marxist groups, so she knew that Lee was full of hot air. But she also knew that because Lee had lived in the USSR -- and boasted about it -- that the FBI would want to talk with him from time to time. 15. It was during the time that Hosty visited twice -- and Marina told Lee -- that Lee wrote his notorious USSR Embassy letter on Ruth Paine's typewriter. 16. Lee left his rough draft on Ruth's table for DAYS and Ruth could not resist. She had seen the words, "notorious FBI," and that made her angry. She read the whole thing. It was a slam on the FBI, and Ruth didn't like that. She made her own hand-copy and resolved to hand it to James Hosty the next time he came over. 17. But Ruth Paine was 100% certain that the FBI was in control of the situation. 18. How wrong -- and how absolutely right she was -- Ruth Paine still does not know to this very day. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said: I identified the document as the "first" record. I examined this phone call in some detail in the final section of - https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/a-new-look-at-the-enigma-of-the-backyard-photographs-part-5 Barger incorrectly stated November 23. Phone records later clarified November 22. Both Paines acknowledge collect call from Arlington to Irving on November 22, same phone numbers as Barger's report, and place it at 1 PM. Jeff, First, I thank you for supplying the FBI document in question. Of course it raises more questions than it answers. The time-frames you ascribe to it are clearly not supported by the document you supplied. One must make acrobatics to make the 1pm time. Let me reproduce the document itself, to make it easier for everybody: Federal Bureau of Investigation Date: November 26, 1963 Captain PAUL BARGER, Irving Police Department, advised that he had received information that a male voice was overheard in a conversation with took place between telephone number CR 5-5211, Arlington Texas, and telephone number BL 3-1628, Irving, Texas, on November 23. He advised that the exact time of this conversation was not available, and that it was not known from which of the telephone numbers the call originated. Captain BARGER advised that the male voice was heard to comment that he felt sure LEE HARVEY OSWALD had killed the President, but he did not feel OSWALD was responsible and further stated, "We both know who is responsible". File #DL-43 There are so many problems with this document, it isn't even funny. But I will accept the document as (1) authentic; and (2) hearsay. No fact checkers were involved in this document -- so this leads me to what Ruth Paine herself told me about it. Regarding the CONTENT of this document, Ruth Paine only admitted the phone numbers and the final sentence. She admitted that Michael said this phrase to her -- and I've already said how Ruth explained it. Yet Ruth Paine's main issue with this document was that she and Michael had both asked the FBI and the DPD and the Irving Police and the Warren Commssion -- multiple times -- WHO in the world had tapped their phone -- AND WHEN DID THEY TAP IT? Also, they wanted to know -- WHY DID THE TAPPERS TAP THEIR PHONE? Ruth Paine still demands this answer to this very day. It still bothers her after more than a half-century. The FBI report blames a police captain in Irving Texas -- but WHY on earth would HE tap their phone? Only if somebody WARNED him that he better tap their phone. But WHO WOULD THAT BE? That's the ultimate question. Who tapped Ruth Paine's phone, and why did they tap it? It takes days to set up a phone tap. Why would anybody even think to tap Ruth Paine's phone? The suspicion I personally have is that the JFK Killers worked to get Ruth Paine's phone tapped in time to accuse Ruth Paine of being a Communist in collusion with Lee Harvey Oswald the Communist, in a Communist Plot to kill JFK. In other words, General Walker and his many minions and quislings in Dallas, Fort Worth and Irving, Texas -- most likely, IMHO, including Dallas Deputy Buddy Walthers and FBI agent James Hosty. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited March 21, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Carter Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 Phone records establishing the call in question happened November 22: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57772#relPageId=127&tab=page Michael and Ruth Paine both acknowledged a collect call that day from the listed numbers, and each said the call occurred at 1 PM. FBI restate the first memo, identifying source of information as Confidential Informant Dallas T-4, probably a wiretap: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10673#relPageId=71&tab=page Marina Oswald was wiretapped for months following assassination. Very possible a tap on Ruth Paine’s phone was generated by Marina’s presence - who was of more interest to Dallas FBI than her husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) Jeff and Len both went through the document records and did their cross checking. They concluded the call was on the day of the assassination. Not the day after. IN fact, the source was also covered up. The WC and Liebeler deliberately covered the date up. As for Dave Andrews' question: Why was Ruth hanging out in Dallas in a half-crappy lower middle class house? To reconcile with Michael? To take in needy foreigners? To hang out with Buell Wesley Frazier's relatives? Wasn't there something better for Ruth Paine to be doing, like with her high-class, close-knit family? Did Ruth Paine have a career, or was she just a housewife in limbo? If you look at what the Paines did in the MInox camera charade at the suggestion of Hoover, and then read about what Buddy Walthers said about the files discovered in their home, and read the transcript of the FBI interview with the SMU student at Luby's Restaurant, you will see what the Paines were doing in that middle class home. According to Greg Parker, he will have some very interesting revelations about the Paines in his upcoming Volume 3 of his series on Oswald. Edited March 21, 2017 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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