ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD" Trial Of Lee Harvey Oswald (PART 23) (CLOSING ARGUMENTS AND VERDICT)

[Paul Trejo]

10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

• 10 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Well, some of that material almost certainly belonged to Oswald, not the Paines. Wouldn't you agree with that?

And if SOME of it was really Oswald's, why not all of it?

David,

Yes, I would certainly agree to that.   Yet let me point out this -- THERE WERE NO METAL FILING "CABINETS" AT ALL IN ALL THOSE ITEM LISTS.    Not in the way that the CTers portray them -- as regular "filing cabinets".

Instead, there were two INDEX CARD holders, with children's photographs in them.  Why was Buddy Walthers trying to work up these index card holders to sound like Communist Party Filing Cabinets?

From SPARTACUS web site:

• Walthers took part in the search of the home of Ruth Paine. Walthers told Eric Tagg that they "found six or seven metal filing cabinets full of letters, maps, records and index cards with names of pro-Castro sympathizers."    James DiEugenio has argued that this "cinches the case that the Paines were domestic surveillance agents in the Cold War against communism."

Well -- Communists or CIA agents?   According to Revilo P. Oliver (who was General Walker's pal, and who also testified before the WC), there was never any difference between Communists and CIA agents.  (We get the same nonsense from John Armstrong's CT.)

Yet what was Buddy Walthers trying to convey with his accusations?   Clearly that the Paines were Communists, supporting the Communist Lee Harvey Oswald to kill his "beloved" JFK.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 23, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

So it's your guess that "certainly.... SOME of it" belonged to Oswald is only that--a guess. Glad you cleared that up.

No problem. Any time.

Edited March 23, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

30 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

...what was Buddy Walthers trying to convey with his accusations?   Clearly that the Paines were Communists, supporting the Communist Lee Harvey Oswald to kill his "beloved" JFK.

I think you're severely overstating Buddy Walthers' intentions and alleged "accusations".

[James DiEugenio]

Davey:

 

When does PT overstate anything?  

 

Nice post Jeff.  And let us not forget Ruthie in Nicaragua and how so many people thought she was CIA at that time.

Edited March 23, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Trejo]

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I think you're severely overstating Buddy Walthers' intentions and alleged "accusations".

David,

Then please help me understand what Buddy Walters meant by his claim about "six or seven filing cabinets full of records of Castro supporters" in Ruth Paine's garage.

JFK had just been shot, and Dallas authorities were looking for a Communist Conspiracy.

We know that from the WC testimony of Secretary of State Dean Rusk.

That is the clear context of Buddy Walthers' claim, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[David Von Pein]

Paul,

Buddy Walthers never once said in his WC testimony that it was his opinion the "filing cabinets" even belonged to Ruth & Michael Paine. They were merely recovered from Ruth's garage (which is where most of the Oswalds' stuff was located as well). And at least one letter in one of the "cabinets" was likely Oswald's letter---not Ruth's. This fact becomes quite clear when reading Walthers' testimony.

So what makes you think Walthers was trying to nail only Ruth & Michael to the wall when it comes to the subject of the filing cabinets?

Edited March 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Ray Mitcham]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Paul,

Buddy Walthers never once said in his WC testimony that it was his opinion the "filing cabinets" even belonged to Ruth & Michael Paine. They were merely recovered from Ruth's garage (which is where most of the Oswalds' stuff was located as well). And at least one letter in one of the "cabinets" was likely Oswald's letter---not Ruth's. This fact becomes quite clear when reading Walthers' testimony.

So what makes you think Walthers was trying to nail only Ruth & Michael to the wall when it comes to the subject of the filing cabinets?

DVP
"and at least one letter in one of the "cabinets" was likely Oswald's letter---not Ruth's.This fact becomes quite clear when reading Walthers' testimony."

 

"Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets? 
Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works. 
 

Nowhere does it say it was one of Oswald's.

When did Oswald get his six or seven filing cabinets delivered from New Orleans?

Edited March 24, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[David Von Pein]

Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets?

Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have been advised that some story has developed that at some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets full of cards that had the names on them of pro-Castro sympathizers or something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them?

Mr. WALTHERS. Well, that could have been one, but I didn't see it.

Mr. LIEBELER. There certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the stuff you got out there or anything like that?

Mr. WALTHERS. I picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of them contained, I don't know myself to this day.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I was sitting here listening to your story, I could see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "Fair Play for Cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel.

Mr. WALTHERS. That's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, but things get all twisted around.
 

Edited March 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Ray Mitcham]

I'd just altered my post as you replied Dave.

 

[David Von Pein]

27 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Nowhere does it say it was one of Oswald's.

Of course it doesn't say it was "Oswald's". I told you I was GUESSING. But it's a reasonable GUESS, don't ya think? Why would one of Oswald's letters be inside a cabinet owned by Ruth Paine?

 

27 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

When did Oswald get his six or seven filing cabinets delivered from New Orleans?

You don't think a few little file boxes could have been transported from New Orleans along with the rest of LHO's possessions in late September? Why not?

[Joe Bauer]

If Michael Paine told

40 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Mr. LIEBELER. What was in these file cabinets?

Mr. WALTHERS. We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works.

 

 In regards to Michael Paine's describing to Walthers and whoever was with him in the garage  what they were looking at after Walthers ( "we" opened one of them and seen what it was " you have to wonder how MP knew that those letters and stuff were not just Oswald's belongings but he knew the specific detail that these items were "from the people he writes to in Russia."

Oswald wasn't there. Michael Paine came to the house after Walthers and other DPD personnel had already been there.

So Paine obviously just saw those Oswald papers spur of the moment.  Either he had gone through them at some point prior or his wife Ruth had and perhaps told Michael Paine the specifics MP  just described. Oswald for sure didn't show the Paines his personal letters.

I wonder if MP  went through Oswald's "stuff" at some point when Oswald wasn't around as he seldom was.

Just some observations that beg questions about MP.

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Ray Mitcham]

38 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Of course it doesn't say it was "Oswald's". I told you I was GUESSING. But it's a reasonable GUESS, don't ya think? Why would one of Oswald's letters be inside a cabinet owned by Ruth Paine?

 

You don't think a few little file boxes could have been transported from New Orleans along with the rest of LHO's possessions in late September? Why not?

Lots and lots of guesses, again.

But Ruth Paine gave complete details of what she transported for the Oswalds from New Orleans, and few little file boxes were never mentioned.

p.s. who said they were little file boxes, and since when has six or seven equalled a few?

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Ray Mitcham

[David Von Pein]

6 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

...who said they were little file boxes...?

Walthers did....

Mr. WALTHERS -- ...and then we found some little metal file cabinets---I don't know what kind you would call them---they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves.

Mr. LIEBELER -- About how many of them would you think there were?

Mr. WALTHERS -- There were six or seven, I believe...

Edited March 24, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Ray Mitcham]

24 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Walthers did....

Mr. WALTHERS -- ...and then we found some little metal file cabinets---I don't know what kind you would call them---they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves.

Mr. LIEBELER -- About how many of them would you think there were?

Mr. WALTHERS -- There were six or seven, I believe...

You still haven't answered how the "few little boxes" got from New Orleans.

Seems you really think they were Oswalds, Dave, or is just another of your famous  guesses.?

[David Von Pein]

8 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

You still haven't answered how the "few little boxes" got from New Orleans.

Seems you really think they were Oswalds, Dave, or is just another of your famous  guesses?

Ray, I told you yesterday that I was only guessing. How many more times do I have to admit that?

And do you really think that Ruth Paine had a clipboard and an inventory sheet at the ready when she drove Marina and the Oswalds' possessions from New Orleans to Irving in late September of '63?

Why on Earth would you think that each individual item she transported would be remembered specifically by Ruth when she testified? (She certainly didn't recall the rifle package being amongst LHO's possessions either. But we know there was one. At least *I* am satisfied that the rifle was in her station wagon.)

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by David Von Pein