Let's Think About "The Unthinkable," Shall We?

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Paul,

If what you say is correct, then Azcue and Duran must have conferred with each other (between her torture sessions) about what to say about the "Oswald" they'd both dealt with on 9/27/63, don't you think?

"Silvie, other than clothing-wise, let's give just slightly different descriptions of him -- for example, you won't say he was very thin-faced, and I won't say he was about the same height as your diminutive 5' 3 1/2" --  but other than that, lets base both of our descriptions on our really nondescript [sarcasm] buddy, KGB officer Nikolai Leonov, whaddaya say?  I'm sure our good  friends, the Russians, won't mind being implicated in the assassination, especially since, being Third Secretary at the Soviet Embassy here, Nikolai is sure to be (or have been) "caught" on film by those cameras of the evil, evil CIA!"

--  Tommy

 

PS .. Nikolai Leonov looked nothing like Lee Harvey Oswald, and you know it.

 

edited and bumped for Paul Trejo, or anyone else who would care to comment on it

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Paul,

If what you say is correct, then Azcue and Duran must have conferred with each other (between her torture sessions) about what to say about the "Oswald" they'd both dealt with on 9/27/63, don't you think?

"Silvie, other than clothing-wise, let's give just slightly different descriptions of him -- for example, you won't say he was very thin-faced, and I won't say he was about the same height as your diminutive 5' 3 1/2" --  but other than that, lets base both of our descriptions on our really nondescript [sarcasm] buddy, KGB officer Nikolai Leonov, whaddaya say?  I'm sure our good  friends, the Russians, won't mind being implicated in the assassination, especially since, being Third Secretary at the Soviet Embassy here, Nikolai is sure to be (or have been) "caught" on film by those cameras of the evil, evil CIA!"

--  Tommy

 

PS .. Nikolai Leonov looked nothing like Lee Harvey Oswald, and you know it.

Tommy,

You seem to be jumbling history with your fiction here.

Please print the exact words of each of these consuls, and the dates of their interviews, and you will see more clearly where your imagination takes over.

Again, I think you are getting too hung up on the Spanish word "rubio" without seeing its Mexican cultural context.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

You seem to be jumbling history with your fiction here.

Please print the exact words of each of these consuls, and the dates of their interviews, and you will see more clearly where your imagination takes over.

Again, I think you are getting too hung up on the Spanish word "rubio" without seeing its Mexican cultural context.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul,

You crack me up, you really do.

 

Going from memory here:

 

Azcue said the guy was wearing a "Prince of Wales" suit.

Azcue said the guy was "blond, dark blond"

Azcue said the guy was "thin, (with a) very thin face

IIRC, Azcue said he had an angular face?

Azcue said the guy looked like he was "in his 30's, maybe as old as 35"

How am I doing so far, Paul?

 

Duran said the guy was not elegantly dressed (in so many words, he looked a bit of a slob)

Duran said the guy was "short, about the same height as her (5' 3 1/2")

Duran said he was "blond"

Quite frankly, I don't remember what Duran said about the guy's age.  Hey, I'm only human.

 

After the assassination, Azcue and Duran both said the guy they had dealt with was not the guy who was shot by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63.

 

So, Word Twister, if we put Azcue's and Duran's descriptions together (minus the clothing), what we have is a short, blond, 30-something guy with a very thin face -- a perfect description of Mexico City-based KGB officer (and putative "Third Secretary" at the Soviet Embassy) -- blond, thin, 5'6" Nikolai Leonov, who just happened to have a very thin face.

 

Do you disagree with my above "fiction", Word Twister?

How so?

--  Tommy

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Paul,

You crack me up, you really do.

Going from memory here:

Azcue said the guy was wearing a "Prince of Wales" suit.

Azcue said the guy was "blond, dark blond"

Azcue said the guy was "thin, (with a) very thin face

IIRC, Azcue said he had an angular face?

Azcue said the guy looked like he was "in his 30's, maybe as old as 35"

How am I doing so far, Paul?

Duran said the guy was not elegantly dressed (in so many words, he looked a bit of a slob)

Duran said the guy was "short, about the same height as her (5' 3 1/2")

Duran said he was "blond"

Quite frankly, I don't remember what Duran said about the guy's age.  Hey, I'm only human.

After the assassination, Azcue and Duran both said the guy they had dealt with was not the guy who was shot by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63.

So, Word Twister, if we put Azcue's and Duran's descriptions together (minus the clothing), what we have is a short, blond, 30-something guy with a very thin face -- a perfect description of Mexico City-based KGB officer (and putative "Third Secretary" at the Soviet Embassy) -- blond, thin, 5'6" Nikolai Leonov, who just happened to have a very thin face.

Do you disagree with my above "fiction", Word Twister?

How so?

--  Tommy

Tommy,

I truly appreciate your patience in covering the material in question very carefully.   You are a careful thinker, as well as a wit, so I will give credit where due.  If I seem sometimes to sell you short -- I apologize, because I admire your positive strengths.  Yet we do ultimately disagree on important points, and I'm trying to be as civil as I can be in our disagreement.

Now -- let's get down to cases.

Eusebio Azcue, Cuban consul who was under fire from the Mexican Police -- is clearly and obviously describing somebody that isn't Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO).  I will grant you that as a historical fact.

Nevertheless, in the Lopez Report (2003), Eusebiio Azcue was also described in face-to-face personal conversation with LHO -- immediately after speaking with Silvia Duran in the same room.   They both had difficulty with LHO who was making a fuss because they would not give him an "instant visa" to Cuba on the basis of his Fake resumé of credentials claiming to be an FPCC officer.

(NOTE: If LHO had been a genuine FPCC officer -- on the bouncer list, if you will -- then LHO would have quickly received an instant visa to Cuba.  They all knew that.)

Instead, LHO was denied by Silvia Duran, and the USSR Embassy refused to vouch for LHO, and LHO was getting loud to Silvia Duran, so Silvia asked Eusebio Azcue to deal with LHO.   (They both had LHO's paperwork which had his photographs attached.)

There can be no doubt that the three of them -- Silvia, LHO and Azcue -- were in the same room at the same time.  There is no doubt that the two Cuban Consuls knew exactly who LHO was.  He was the trouble-maker.  Azcue told LHO that he was "no friend of the Cuban Revolution" going by LHO's behavior.  

Yet when the Mexican Police questioned Azcue after the JFK assassination -- breathing down his neck and wearing brass knuckles, so to speak -- Azcue gave them the description of a very different person.  Somebody whom Azcue had seen frequently around the Mexican Consulates.  Somebody who looked at least a LITTLE like LHO.   He had to be "rubio", no doubt,  because Oswald was "rubio."  

The first guy (perhaps) who came into Azcue's cabeza was this KGB agent -- whose name was perhaps mentally associated to Lee as Leon or Leonov.  Close enough.  "Is this the guy you mean, Senior Policeman?  Please don't hit me.  I don't know Lee Oswald, the killer of JFK.  Please don't hit me.  I know those dirty Reds killed JFK, but I have nothing to do with them.  Please don't hit me."

The strong evidence I have for my position, Tommy, is that aside from being "rubio," the descriptions given by Eusebio Azcue and Silvia Duran for LHO are Opposites.

You have not dealt with that historical fact, Tommy.  You want to prove your Leonov theory so quickly that you neglected this bug on the rug.

Best regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

17 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

[...]

[T]he descriptions given by Eusebio Azcue and Silvia Duran for LHO are Opposites.

You have not dealt with that historical fact, Tommy.  You want to prove your Leonov theory so quickly that you neglected this bug on the rug.

[...]

 

Dear Paul,

Azcue said the guy was "blond, dark blond", had a straight nose, a thin body, a "very thin face", and looked more than thirty years of age, "maybe 35".

Duran said he was "short, about the same height as her (5' 3 1/2")" and "blond".

How, pray tell, are those physical descriptions mutually exclusive?

--  Tommy

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Paul,

Azcue said the guy was "blond, dark blond", had a straight nose, a thin body, a "very thin face", and looked more than thirty years of age, "maybe 35".

Duran said he was "short, about the same height as her (5' 3 1/2")" and "blond".

How, pray tell, are those physical descriptions mutually exclusive?

--  Tommy

 

Tommy,

Did you deliberately leave out of the most important part?   Azcue said he wore a suit.  Duran said he was "inelegantly dressed."

I guess you don't know a lot about Mexican culture, Tommy.   That's OK.   Nobody's perfect.

Suits are less common in Mexico than in the USA.  It's because Mexico is surprisingly less urban than the USA.  A suit is impressive.

Also, Mexican bureaucrats use polite understatement in public -- rather than say "a slob" they will say, "inelegantly dressed."

These are opposite descriptions.   Azcue deliberately described somebody else.

Finally, Tommy, I will repeat myself hoarse on this point -- the word "rubio" (blonde) does not mean in Mexico City what it means in the USA.  It only means "light-haired" or even "lighter-haired than the Mexican usual" -- which is jet black.

To try to make a CIA/KGB plot out of the Mexican word, "rubio," is to s-t-r-e-t-c-h and r-e-a-c-h with all one's might.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

Did you deliberately leave out of the most important part?   Azcue said he wore a suit.  Duran said he was "inelegantly dressed."

I guess you don't know a lot about Mexican culture, Tommy.   That's OK.   Nobody's perfect.

Suits are less common in Mexico than in the USA.  It's because Mexico is surprisingly less urban than the USA.  A suit is impressive.

Also, Mexican bureaucrats use polite understatement in public -- rather than say "a slob" they will say, "inelegantly dressed."

These are opposite descriptions.   Azcue deliberately described somebody else.

Finally, Tommy, I will repeat myself hoarse on this point -- the word "rubio" (blonde) does not mean in Mexico City what it means in the USA.  It only means "light-haired" or even "lighter-haired than the Mexican usual" -- which is jet black.

To try to make a CIA/KGB plot out of the Mexican word, "rubio," is to s-t-r-e-t-c-h and r-e-a-c-h with all one's might.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

And I guess you don't want to talk about the guy's more-permanent-than-clothing physical characteristics, huh?

"Blond or 'dark' blond, looked to be over thirty years of age, quite short, thin body, very thin face."

--  Tommy

PS  So, you're saying that Azcue and Duran dealt with two different blond "Oswalds" on 9/27/63?

No lo creo.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

21 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

And I guess you don't want to talk about the guy's more-permanent-than-clothing physical characteristics, huh?

"Blond or "dark" blond, looked to be over thirty years of age, quite short, thin body, very thin face."

--  Tommy

PS  So, you're saying that Azcue and Duran dealt with two different blond "Oswalds" on 9/27/63?

No lo creo.

Tommy,

I will try to explain my position again. 

I am saying that Silvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue described two totally different "rubio" Oswalds.

I am saying that both Duran and Azcue saw and talked with one and the same "rubio": Oswald on 9/27/1963.

But when the Mexican Police came knocking after the JFK assassination -- they scattered.

I am saying that the man whom Azcue described much later to the Mexican Police ("Blond or 'dark' blond, looked to be over thirty years of age, quite short, thin body, very hin face") was deliberately somebody else. 

Azcue didn't want to get beat up.  Azcue wanted to distance himself as far from possible from the real LHO, because the Mexican Police were steaming.  So, instead, Azcue described some guy he had recently seen around the Embassy compound, who was "close enough" and whose name was "Leon".

Lo entiendes?
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

19 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

I will try to explain my position again. 

I am saying that Silvia Duran and Eusebio Azcue described two totally different "rubio" Oswalds.

I am saying that both Duran and Azcue saw and talked with one and the same "rubio": Oswald on 9/27/1963.

But when the Mexican Police came knocking after the JFK assassination -- they scattered.

I am saying that the man whom Azcue described much later to the Mexican Police ("Blond or 'dark' blond, looked to be over thirty years of age, quite short, thin body, very hin face") was deliberately somebody else. 

Azcue didn't want to get beat up.  Azcue wanted to distance himself as far from possible from the real LHO, because the Mexican Police were steaming.  So, instead, Azcue described some guy he had recently seen around the Embassy compound, who was "close enough" and whose name was "Leon".

Lo entiendes?
--Paul Trejo

So they conferred on "Oswald's" physical (i.e.) body description, right?

Or they just both kinda randomly said the guy had blond hair?

Question:  If Mexicans use the word "rubio" to describe anyone whose complexion or hair is lighter than their own dark skin and jet-black hair, what word, then, do they use to describe someone who looks like this?

 

MUY RUBIO?

 

--  Tommy

Edited April 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

16 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

So they conferred on "Oswald's" physical (i.e.) body description, right?

Or they just both kinda randomly said the guy had blond hair?

Question:  If Mexicans use the word "rubio" to describe anyone whose complexion or hair is lighter than their own dark skin and jet-black hair, what word, then, do they use to describe someone who looks like this?

MUY RUBIO?

--  Tommy

Tommy,

In Northern Canada the Eskimos have a dozen words for snow, since they are familiar with many varieties.

In Mexico there is only one word for snow and that word is often used for ice cream as well.

Shades of "rubio" rarely enter into Mexican conversation.  The guy you show would commonly be described simply as "rubio".

It's just that rare in Mexican circles.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 5, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

16 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

In Northern Canada the Eskimos have a dozen words for snow, since they are familiar with many varieties.

In Mexico there is only one word for snow and that word is often used for ice cream as well.

Shades of "rubio" rarely enter into Mexican conversation.  The guy you show would commonly be described simply as "rubio".

It's just that rare in Mexican circles.

Regards 

--Paul Trejo 

 

Dear Paul,

So, what you are really saying is that Duran's "rubio" Oswald could very, very well have had hair the same color as the guy below.

Thank you very much for confirming that for us, Paul.

 

--  Tommy

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

20 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

So, what you are really saying is that Duran's "rubio" Oswald could very, very well have had hair the same color as the guy below.

Thank you very much for confirming that for us, Paul.

 

--  Tommy

 

bumped for Word Twister Trejo

 

EDIT:

Since this guy's hair isn't jet black, do you think Duran would have described him as being "rubio" or "castaño"?

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

20 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

So, what you are really saying is that Duran's "rubio" Oswald could have had the same hair color as the guy below.

Thank you very much for confirming that for us, Paul.

 

--  Tommy

 

bumped for Word Twister Trejo

 

EDIT:

Since this guy's hair isn't jet black, do you think Duran would have described him as being "rubio" (blond), or "castaño" (chestnut)?

 

edited and bumped

Edited April 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

 

23 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

bumped for Word Twister Trejo

 

EDIT:

Since this guy's hair isn't jet black, do you think Duran would have described him as being "rubio" or "castaño"?

 

Thomas,

You're merely playing games now.  If you really want to know the answer -- then you should post a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald himself -- and compare his hair to the hair of an average Mexican citizen -- say -- Julio Iglesias.

Otherwise, you're just making jokes, Tommy, which is boring.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

18 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Thomas,

You're merely playing games now.  If you really want to know the answer -- then you should post a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald himself -- and compare his hair to the hair of an average Mexican citizen -- say -- Julio Iglesias.

Otherwise, you're just making jokes, Tommy, which is boring.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Very clever non-answer, Word Twister.

Verbal Smoke and Mirrors is what you're all about.

Regards,

--  Tommy