Max Holland and Donald Carpenter vs Garrison and the ARRB

[James DiEugenio]

TG, to be frank,  I don't know where you are coming from with your Putin stuff etc.   And then you say its me insulting you.

Pointing out declassifed files which show that certain writers who promoted the official line, while denying they did such things, certainly furthers my  point.  Which is that many of these people are compromised.

Are they all like that?  I don't know, probably not.  There are some people who do what they do just for money, and others who do it for misguided patriotism.  They do not want to believe the worst about this country.  Some, I think do what they do just out of perversity.  They don't have very much going on in their lives and this gives them some preoccupation.

As per PJM, I mean TP never fails to amaze.  When I last wrote about her, there were at least three files on the woman which were still heavily redacted. But one document pegged her as a "witting collaborator" and the guy said she can be relied upon to write the kind of stories the CIA wants her to.

Why should you pay for what you can get for free?  And PJM did not need the money anyway.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

TG, to be frank,  I don't know where you are coming from with your Putin stuff etc.   And then you say its me insulting you.

Pointing out declassifed files which show that certain writers who promoted the official line, while denying they did such things, certainly furthers my  point.  Which is that many of these people are compromised.

Are they all like that?  I don't know, probably not.  There are some people who do what they do just for money, and others who do it for misguided patriotism.  They do not want to believe the worst about this country.  Some, I think do what they do just out of perversity.  They don't have very much going on in their lives and this gives them some preoccupation.

As per PJM, I mean TP never fails to amaze.  When I last wrote about her, there were at least three files on the woman which were still heavily redacted. But one document pegged her as a "witting collaborator" and the guy said she can be relied upon to write the kind of stories the CIA wants her to.

Why should you pay for what you can get for free?  And PJM did not need the money anyway.

 

Dear James,

You mean they actually have the gall to refuse to believe (be they on the right or on the left) that we are living in a Deep State ?

(If so, they sound like rational, critical-thinking human beings to me, be they on the right or on the left, or right there in the dad-gum center.)

--  Tommy

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/25/2017 at 0:22 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Max Holland never quits.  Does he.  Now he tries to turn back the clock to 1969 on the Garrison inquiry.  Like the ARRB never existed.  Shameless.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/max-holland-and-donald-carpenter-vs-jim-garrison-and-the-arrb

 

Dear James,

"[David Ferrie] drove 400 miles through a pounding rainstorm not to skate ..."

Alvin Beaubouef called me out of the blue around 2007 (?) to "set me straight" about the "pounding rain and lightening storm" I'd written about on the forum, and to tell me that the storm wasn't all that severe.  He also told me that he (Beaubouef) used to be an "Olympics-quality" figure skater, and that he and Ferrie were considering opening an ice skating rink in New Orleans (which had none at the time), and that they drove to Houston not to ice skate per se (although Beaubouef said he did skate some there), but to ask the Houston ice skating rink's owner some questions about the profitability of his operation, and to check it out visually, etc.  Since I'm such a bad researcher, I failled to follow up on that to see if Houston was the closest place to New Orleans that had an ice skating rink in November, 1963.  My bad.

We had several phone conversations after that, and you'll be glad to hear that in one of them Beaubouef admitted to me, when I asked him, that Ferrie was ... gasp ... "CIA."

I conferred with Stephen Roy (R.I.P.) via PM about this, and he told me Beaubeouf had told him the same thing, but added that it probably was around 1961-1962 (iirc) when Ferrie was associated with the CIA-funded and directed DRE.

Disbelieve me or discount me or belittle me if you want to, James.  Wouldn't be the first time.  (lol)

--  Tommy

Edited April 1, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

I have met several people who don't want to hear the worst things about the JFK case.  And that is what they say, "I don't believe that could happen in this country."

 A researcher  friend  of mine told me that back in 1967 when he started really getting interested in the case, his mother could not figure out why he was spending all this time and money buying books and periodicalsi and the WC volumes.  He told her, "Mom, somebody murdered the president, and it was not this Oswald guy.   I want to know who it was and why the press is covering it up."  (He was very interested in media.)

One day he came home from his classes at college.  HIs mother had just finished reading Six Seconds in Dallas. She was putting it back on the shelf.  She turned and said to him, "You're right, it was a conspiracy.  And I don't ever want to talk about it again."  And she didn't.  Unfortunately, that is how many feel about this case.  

As per your Deep State attribution, which is as bad as your Putin smear, I don't use that term.  I have never found it to be very helpful or descriptive. Just like I never liked the term Deep Poltiics, or what Scott and Marshall preceded that with, Parapolitics.  The term I use is the national security state.  And I used it in my essay on Holland, next to last paragraph.  I think we should be more specific than Deep State or Deep Politics.  And also include the word secrecy and classification, which is a  serious problem that we have.

As per your comments about Al Beabouef, you obviously don't know very much of what was in Garrison's files or of Mr. Rolland.  Which is OK, since not many people do. Thanks to the Paul Hoch College of Historical Studies.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Thomas Graves]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

As per your Deep State attribution, which is as bad as your Putin smear, I don't use that term.  

As per your comments about Al Beabouef, you obviously don't know very much of what was in Garrison's files or of Mr. Rolland.  

 

 

Dear James,

You don't have to use the terminology to have the mind set.

As regards Beaubouf, all I did was relay to you what he told me over the phone.

Aren't you glad to get it from "the horse's mouth" that Ferrie was CIA?

Sheesh.

--  Tommy

[James DiEugenio]

Why would i leap for joy at anything Beaubouf said?  To me, he is maybe one step above Layton Martens in the credibility scale.

And why would I ever need someone like that to show that Ferrie was a CIA agent?  Especially in light of the following:

Unlike our intrepid essayist, most curious and objective readers would have liked to know the following:

1. Why did Ferrie lie about the purpose of his trip to Houston and Galveston?
2. What purpose was served by denying he knew Oswald when it could so easily be shown that this was false?
3. How on earth could he deny that he was not familiar with a telescopic rifle, or even known how to use one, when he participated in training for both the Bay of Pigs and Operation Mongoose?

As any professional investigator comprehends, when a person of interest lies under penalty of perjury, it usually indicates that there are higher stakes involved. Today, there can be little doubt that this was the case with David Ferrie. Any real investigation of Ferrie would have uncovered a welter of incriminating evidence. Not just about him. But about Sergio Arcacha Smith, Clay Shaw, and Guy Banister. There are also links between Ferrie, Sergio Arcacha Smith and David Phillips.

For instance, during a legal deposition for his lawsuit against Garrison, Gordon Novel described a meeting at Banister’s office. At the meeting were Novel, Banister, Arcacha Smith and a man who clearly fits the description of Phillips. (Davy, pp. 22-24) Secondly, in preparation for the Bay of Pigs, Ferrie trained Cuban exiles in underwater demolition at the abandoned Belle Chasse Naval Ammunition Depot, just south of New Orleans. Ferrie revealed that Sergio Arcacha Smith was the conduit for the arms coming into the camp. In an after action report, the CIA officer who summarized the types and dates of training, noted that the Belle Chasse base had now been sterilized; meaning no trace of CIA affiliation remained. That memo was written by David Phillips. (ibid, p. 31) Third, an INS agent named Wendell Roache told the Church Committee that they were tracking Ferrie because of his close associations with Cuban exiles illegally in the country. They had traced him to 544 Camp Street, and also found out he took films of a training camp. This may be the film that HSCA Deputy Counsel Bob Tanenbaum said he saw in the early days of the HSCA inquiry. If so, it featured Oswald, Banister and Phillips. (DiEugenio, p. 116)

Edited April 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Thomas Graves]

31 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Why would i leap for joy at anything Beaubouf said?  To me, he is maybe one sep (sic) above Layton Martens in the credibility scale.

And why would I ever need someone like that to show that Ferrie was a CIA agent? 

 [...]

I'm sorry.  I forgot that you already know everything.

Oh well, it's the thought that counts.  Right, James?

Carry on.

--  Tommy   

PS  How do you know that Dave And The Boys didn't go to Houston to check out that ice-skating rink, you know, to see if it might be a viable business for them to open in New Orleans?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

 

 

I'm sorry that you did not let me finish.

Somehow TG did not find any of the above worth quoting.

To me its all relevant and important.  Because it builds a web of incriminating relationships.  And it does from the ground up.  If Ferrie was not CIA, then how would be be allowed to train Cuban exiles at Belle Chasse in Underwater Demolition for the Bay of Pigs?  How would he then be part of the training for Mongoose, and he actually knew the code name of the operation? Why would he be escorting Cuban exiles to 544 Camp Street?  Why would he be allowed to take films at a CIA training camp?  

And as one can see SAS was the conduit for the arms into Belle Chasse.  SAS also had films of the Bay of Pigs operation which he and Ferrie watched at Smith's home.

As per CIA being my magic elixir for the JFK hit, again, this is simply not the case.  The book in which I outline what I think happened in Dallas is the second edition of Destiny Betrayed. Its pretty easy to see from that book that I consider the Cuban exile arm pretty important, especially through people like SAS, Bernardo DeTorres, and Emilio Santana. And I am very specific about the evidence I name about these men.  The third wheel of what I outline is the Mob in a clean up role with Ruby.  So the idea that my concept is purely and simply a CIA operation is not accurate. And there is nothing broad brush about that book.  It is quite specific about certain actions, players and the implications.  As far as explaining what happened in Dallas and why, I will match that book with anyone else's.

And I should add, my tripartite scheme is fairly common among  critics.  The late Bill Turner, and Warren Hinckle outlined a similar concept in The Fish is Red, retiled Deadly Secrets. Anthony Summers, in the first, and best version of his book, the 1981 Conspiracy, also offers up this kind of concept.  Larry Hancock pretty much delineates such a plot in SWHT.  So I am in pretty comfortable company (Although I would distance myself from Summers in his latest visage.)  

As per Morales in New Orleans uh no I do not expect Allen Dulles to be in New Orleans with Oswald's leafleting.  Not at all the reason I am not impressed by that film.  I simply do not buy a photo identification that is so non informative. I mean the identifications of Morales at the Ambassador were wrong, but there was more to go on there than in this.

If TG has published any kind of essay on Morales that contains new information in it that relates to the JFK case, I will be glad to read it.  Just show me where it is.

Edited April 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

I should add one more point about what I think happened.

If you read the second edition of Destiny Betrayed, you will see that I spend some time in discussing the Power Elite.  That is the level of wealth and power which clearly was in control of so much of the banking, petroleum, communications industry and the press. It was sometimes called the Eastern Establishment.  Professor Donald Gibson did an excellent job outlining how much control they had over politics and the economy in 1963, and how much they were in opposition to Kennedy. This is in his masterful book Battling Wall Street. 

Allen Dulles owed a large part of his success in life to this class of people.  As did John McCloy. And the CIA had very clear ties to them, and often did their bidding. For instance, there were at least two Cabots in the State Department preparing the 1954 CIA coup in Guatemala. In my opinion today, this class had to give the OK in order for the action arm to do what they did. Because once they stamped their seal of approval, that meant the media would run cover for them e.g. the Paleys, the Stantons, the Salants, and Sarnoffs.  

This is not at all broadbrush theorizing.  If you read my article on CBS and their 1967 special, or Bill Davy's on the 1967 NBC hit piece on Garrison, that is what happened.

Edited April 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Thomas Graves]

36 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

 

 

I'm sorry that you did not let me finish.

Somehow TG did not find any of the above worth quoting.

To me its all relevant and important.  Because it builds a web of incriminating relationships.  And it does from the ground up.  If Ferrie was not CIA, then how would be be allowed to train Cuban exiles at Belle Chasse in Underwater Demolition for the Bay of Pigs?  How would he then be part of the training for Mongoose, and he actually knew the code name of the operation? Why would he be escorting Cuban exiles to 544 Camp Street?  Why would he be allowed to take films at a CIA training camp?  

And as one can see SAS was the conduit for the arms into Belle Chasse.  SAS also had films of the Bay of Pigs operation which he and Ferrie watched at Smith's home.

As per CIA being my magic elixir for the JFK hit, again, this is simply not the case.  The book in which I outline what I think happened in Dallas is the second edition of Destiny Betrayed. Its pretty easy to see from that book that I consider the Cuban exile arm pretty important, especially through people like SAS, Bernardo DeTorres, and Emilio Santana. And I am very specific about the evidence I name about these men.  The third wheel of what I outline is the Mob in a clean up role with Ruby.  So the idea that my concept is purely and simply a CIA operation is not accurate. And there is nothing broad brush about that book.  It is quite specific about certain actions, players and the implications.  As far as explaining what happened in Dallas and why, I will match that book with anyone else's.

And I should add, my tripartite scheme is fairly common among  critics.  The late Bill Turner, and Warren Hinckle outlined a similar concept in The Fish is Red, retiled Deadly Secrets. Anthony Summers, in the first, and best version of his book, the 1981 Conspiracy, also offers up this kind of concept.  Larry Hancock pretty much delineates such a plot in SWHT.  So I am in pretty comfortable company (Although I would distance myself from Summers in his latest visage.)  

As per Morales in New Orleans uh no I do not expect Allen Dulles to be in New Orleans with Oswald's leafleting.  Not at all the reason I am not impressed by that film.  I simply do not buy a photo identification that is so non informative. I mean the identifications of Morales at the Ambassador were wrong, but there was more to go on there than in this.

If TG has published any kind of essay on Morales that contains new information in it that relates to the JFK case, I will be glad to read it.  Just show me where it is.

Uhh, Did you really think I thought you were looking for evidence of Dulles' being in New Orleans?

LOL!

"I mean the identifications of Morales at the Ambassador [Hotel in Los Angeles in June, 1968] were wrong, but there was more to go on there than in this ["Back Scratcher"-Morales @ 03:55 mark in the 50 Reasons For 50 Years -- Episode #4 Black Op Radio video].

Question:  Really? How so, Jim?

--  Tommy

PS  I did not let you finish?

Edited April 3, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

I am waiting for you to answer my request, here it is:

If TG has published any kind of essay on Morales that contains new information in it that relates to the JFK case, I will be glad to read it.  Just show me where it is.

Edited April 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

As for my part, here is my two part essay on how CBS covered up the JFK case.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/why-cbs-covered-up-the-jfk-assassination

[James DiEugenio]

Here is William Davy's essay on Sarnoff and NBC and their 1987 special on Garrison:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/shoot-him-down-nbc-the-cia-and-jim-garrison

[Thomas Graves]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

I am waiting for you to answer my request, here it is:

If TG has published any kind of essay on Morales that contains new information in it that relates to the JFK case, I will be glad to read it.  Just show me where it is.

Dear James,

You are?

Really?

Gosh, I've always wanted to be a great author like you, Mr. DiEugenio, even though you do tend to synthesize and quote and borrow from and "spin" the writings of other "researchers" rather than anything you, yourself, have discovered.  IIRC.  IMHO.

--  Tommy

Edited April 3, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[James DiEugenio]

Writing an essay is not  being an author, great or otherwise.

RCD for example never wrote  a book as far as I know.  But his work was quite valuable.

So I will take that as a no?  You have not written any essay on Morales?

 

BTW, I really advise everyone to read those two links on CBS and NBC and how they attacked the critical movement. It surprises me that there is not that much interest on this site about the media.I think its a very important matter. In fact, I think its crucial.

Edited April 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio