A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Jim Hargrove]

21 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The best evidence that Harvey Oswald’s first language was Russian was his sheer mastery of it as a young man.  He clearly spoke Russian and read Russian literature in the Marines prior to his false defection to Russia.  When he returned, the White Russians in and around Dallas were amazed at his fluency, even though he had spent two and a half years there, mostly working full time in a factory.

In his manuscript  I AM A PATSY! I AM A PATSY!  Russian immigrant George De Mohrenschildt, who Harvey in 1963 called his closest friend, described his amazement at Harvey’s Russian fluency.

For those who can’t see the graphic above, here’s what the main paragraph from this page of De Mohrenschildt's manuscript says:

Incidentally I never saw him interested in anything else except Russian
books and magazines . He said he didn't want to forget the language -
but it amazed me that he read such difficult writers like Gorki, Dostoevski,
Gogol, Tolstoi and Turgenieff - in Russian . As everyone knows Russian is
a complex language and he was supposed to have stayed in the Soviet Union
only a little over two years . He must have had some previous training and
that point had never been brought up by the Warren Committee - and it is
still puzzling to me. In my opinion Lee was a very bright person but not
a genius . He never mastered the English language yet he learned such a dif-
icult language! I taught Russian at all level in a large University, and
I never saw such a profficiency in the best senior students who constantly
listened to  Russian tapes and spoke to Russian fiends . As a matter of
fact American-born instructors never mastered Russian spoken language as
well as Lee did .

De Mohrenschildt would have made a fascinating witness at the HSCA hearings and, in fact, in early 1977 the HSCA sought to interview him. But on March 30 he was found in his home with a shotgun blast to his head. The last person to see him alive was author Edward Epstein, a close friend of CIA Counterintelligence Chief James Angleton.

There are a number of people here on the Education Forum who will undoubtedly claim there is nothing unusual about Harvey Oswald’s Russian fluency.  But that is not the view of the Russian immigrants who met him in Dallas in 1963.  No doubt the Harvey and Lee critics here will say they know better.

George De Mohrenschildt was hardly the only White Russian immigrant in Dallas who was amazed by Harvey Oswald’s fluency in Russian.

 

From Harvey and Lee:

 

On Christmas Day, Mr. and Mrs. John (Elena) Hall visited the Oswalds at their

apartment on Elsbeth Street.¹⁶⁶ Three days later, on Friday, December 28, Mrs. Declan

(Katya) Ford held a post-Christmas party gathering at her house in Dallas. At the request

of Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. who Mrs. Ford had known for 14 years. she invited the

Oswalds to her party.¹⁶⁷ This was the third and last time Katya Ford would see either

of the Oswald's.

 

[….]

 

Party attendees notice Oswald's ability to speak Russian

 

Natalie Ray, one of the party attendees, said, "Oswald was very proud of the fact

that he spoke Russian so well." As a native of Russia Natalie said that she was amazed

that he had such a good command of the language.¹⁶⁹ Other attendees of the party were

equally amazed at his proficiency in the Russian language and discussed their thoughts

with the Warren Commission:

•

Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he

(Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; re­ally

surprised me .... .it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time,

you know .... .l said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long

and still don't speak very well English."'

•

George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Rus­-

sian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been

in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied,

"I would say very good."¹⁷⁰

•

Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his com­-

mand of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the pe­-

riod of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely

better than I would expect."

•

Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good

command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

•

Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did

speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised--in

short time, he spoke nicely."

•

George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke

fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to

speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English

to Russian."

•

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I

thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I

asked him if he was of Polish decent."

 

--From Harvey and Lee, pp. 425-426, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

[Jim Hargrove]

A brand new gem on the Harvey and Lee website....

John Armstrong believes American-born LEE Oswald framed Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald for the assassination of JFK. Was LEE Oswald filmed on the sixth floor west end window by Tom Dillard seconds after the shooting?

Read John’s new write-up:

MEN ON THE SIXTH FLOOR

Enjoy!

[Michael Walton]

John Armstrong believes American-born LEE Oswald framed Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald for the assassination of JFK. Was LEE Oswald filmed on the sixth floor west end window by Tom Dillard seconds after the shooting?

Wow, I  always  thought  this HL caper was farcical, but we're  now moving to Fetzer territory. The twin was up there to blame his clone?

Does Armstrong  and Hargrove have no shame? What would Jack and Jackie  think if they could read this? Thank god she passed away  before the crazies came out  of  the  woodwork  on the Internet.

[Sandy Larsen]

20 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Did the White Russians have an incentive to lie?

 

5 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Yes Sandy they did. Just like they all lined up to say  he was a wife beater.

Generally speaking the White Russians did NOT say Oswald was a wife beater. They said they saw the bruise on her face. And that they heard from others that he was a wife beater. Both of which are true according to the evidence.

You're claiming that the White Russians had incentive to lie about Oswald's Russian speaking ability. Tell us what the incentive was and produce evidence for it. Otherwise retract your claim.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Jim Hargrove]

Michael Walton's outrage is matched by his ignorance of this case.

Walton is unaware that Frazier saw a second Oswald walking up Houston behind the Book Depository.  He is unaware that Roger Craig and others (Robinson, Cooper, Forrest, Pennington) saw a second Oswald getting into a Nash Rambler station wagon on Elm St. immediately after the hit.  He doesn’t know that one Oswald was arrested or detained in the balcony of the Texas Theater while the other was arrested on the main floor, as shown by multiple Dallas Police reports and confirmed by Butch Burroughs.  He is ignorant of the fact that Bernard Haire and others saw a second Oswald led out the back of the Texas Theater while Classic Oswald was dragged out the front.  I could go on, but it would all be lost on Walton, who chooses only to be outraged by what he doesn’t even understand.

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.” 
― Leo Tolstoy,

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Michael Walton writes:

Quote

Wow, I  always  thought  this HL caper was farcical, but we're  now moving to Fetzer territory. The twin was up there to blame his clone?

Does Armstrong  and Hargrove have no shame? What would Jack and Jackie  think if they could read this? Thank god she passed away  before the crazies came out  of  the  woodwork  on the Internet.

It just gets crazier and crazier, doesn't it? I suspect that the whole 'Harvey and Lee' thing is actually an elaborate hoax, perhaps a psychologist's experiment, an attempt to see how much ridiculous nonsense it will take before the most gullible everything-is-a-conspiracy fundamentalists ask themselves, "Hang on a minute. I've fallen for the claims about this hypothetical 'Harvey', for whom not the slightest piece of credible documentary evidence exists, and I've fallen for the claims about this hypothetical Marguerite impostor, who was conjured into existence by the recollection of someone who had met her on just one occasion forty years earlier. But this is a step too far. Actually, come to think about it, the whole thing is nonsense. There's next to no evidence for any of it. How can I get out of this without losing too much face?"

It will be interesting to see whether anyone other than Jim Hargrove publicly supports the latest crazy assertion. It would also be interesting to find out exactly how ridiculous the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory needs to get before Jim himself throws in the towel. It might have to involve little green men. Perhaps the next announcement will be that 'Harvey' was the child not of imaginary Russian-speaking Hungarians but of Klingon-speaking creatures from the planet Zog. And why not? After all, there's precisely the same amount of documentary evidence for each.

Incidentally, Greg Parker has provided a detailed rebuttal of Jim's response to Michael's post:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1410-jimbo-sees-oswalds-everywhere-i-think-there-may-even-be-one-under-his-bed

The final sentence sums it up: "You [Hargrove] are a disgrace of Fetzerian proportions".

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim Hargrove tried to argue that because his fictional 'Harvey' spoke Russian well, we should conclude that Russian was this fictional character's native language. I pointed out that:

1 - Several people who knew Russian claimed that although the real Oswald did indeed speak Russian well by the time he returned to the USA, he spoke with an accent and made grammatical mistakes.
2 - This is inconsistent with the behaviour of a native speaker of Russian, especially one who had recently spent more than two and a half years surrounded by other native speakers of the language.
3 - This is entirely consistent with the behaviour of a non-native speaker of Russian, such as the historical Lee Harvey Oswald who learned the language in his teens and twenties.

In response, Jim ignored the objections and simply repeated his claim that because his fictional 'Harvey' spoke Russian well, we should conclude that Russian was this fictional character's native language.

Let's try again. There is solid evidence that Oswald made grammatical mistakes when speaking Russian, and that he objected when Marina corrected those mistakes. The only realistic way this evidence can be reconciled with the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory is by suggesting that Oswald was faking this behaviour, and that he actually possessed a native speaker's knowledge of Russian grammar but he deliberately misled his wife and other speakers of the language by pretending that his knowledge was only that of an American who had learned Russian in his teens and twenties. Is that what Jim is suggesting? If so, what makes him think that this explanation is even remotely credible? If not, what other explanation would he suggest?

I also pointed out that the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' doctrine, as revealed to us in Jim's holy book, specifically required the Oswald defector to have spoken Russian that was indistinguishable from that of a native speaker, and in particular that the defector must have spoken the language without an accent: "there is little point in sending an American agent, taught in the United States to speak a Slavic or Oriental language, to infiltrate these countries because they would speak with an accent" (Holy Book, p.10). But there is ample evidence that Oswald made grammatical mistakes in Russian, and that he did indeed speak the language with a noticeable accent. Another piece of 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' doctrine crumbles into dust.

As difficult as it must be for a fundamentalist believer to acknowledge that his or her holy book contains blatant errors, I wonder if Jim is strong enough to admit that, on this point at least, his holy book is clearly wrong. The problem he faces, of course, is that this piece of doctrine is central to the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory. If the Oswald who defected could not pass as a native speaker of Russian, there would have been no point in raising two unrelated boys in the remote hope that they would grow up to look alike, and the whole crazy theory collapses.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Walton is unaware that Frazier saw a second Oswald walking up Houston behind the Book Depository.  He is unaware that Roger Craig and others (Robinson, Cooper, Forrest, Pennington) saw a second Oswald getting into a Nash Rambler station wagon on Elm St. immediately after the hit.

I would like Jim Hargrove to make a list of all the second Oswald sightings and make all of those fit into the H&L theory. If he is unable to do that, then he must admit that at least some of those sightings are bogus. At that point he may come to the realization that perhaps many of the sightings, including some that he uses to support the H&L theory are bogus. Many people thought they saw LHO in situations where he could not have been. Some of these people are sincere and just mistaken, but others are liars. This happens after a publicized event and law enforcement and investigators understand this. But Jim Hargrove and Armstrong shamelessly use these sightings to promote their already disproven theory.

[Jim Hargrove]

Since several people like to point to Greg Parker’s site and say how he is correcting my “errors,” let’s take a look at Parker’s latest effort. (Moderators note: Mr. Parker is reproducing my posts from this site, and so it seems only fair that I post his words here, right?)

==================

ME: He is unaware that Roger Craig and others (Robinson, Cooper, Forrest, Pennington) saw a second Oswald getting into a Nash Rambler station wagon on Elm St. immediately after the hit.  

PARKER: No, Jimbo. That is a mischaracterization. These witnesses said they saw someone they believed looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. Only one was given a chance to view Oswald and he ID'd him as the man he had seen and not someone who looked a bit like the person in custody but was 2 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier.   

I RESPOND: Which is the precise description of American-born Lee Oswald, in contrast to the shorter, lighter Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald, both of whom were in the USMC.

On his 9/3/59 USMC medical report LEE Harvey Oswald’s height is listed at 5’ 11” (which is 71 inches) and his weight as 150 lbs.

 

On his 10/12/59 Armed Forces Report of Transfer or Discharge LEE Harvey Oswald’s height is also listed at 5’ 11” and his weight as 150 lbs.

 

 

The same 5’ 11” height is listed on LHO’s 1959 passport, his 1963 passport, his 9/14/59 Selective Service Registration card, and many other places. The public record contains nearly as many references to a 5” 11” Oswald as to a 5’ 9” Oswald. Almost sounds like two different fellows, eh?

Parker is actually helping to confirm that the taller, bulkier American-born LEE Oswald was seen leaving the TSBD and entering a Nash Rambler station wagon.

====================

ME: He doesn’t know that one Oswald was arrested or detained in the balcony of the Texas Theater while the other was arrested on the main floor,

PARKER: There was only one arrest. Stringfellow has conflated early reports of a suspect up on the balcony with the actual circumstances of the arrest.

PARKER: Despite what any cop has said, according to Jim Ewell, "there must have been about fifteen or twenty high school age boys up there watching. They’d skipped school to watch double feature war movies. One of them was “War Is Hell.”" I know who is more believable. Does anyone really think that the cops were arresting high school kids for the murder of Tippit?

I RESPOND: Multiple Dallas Police reports indicate Oswald was arrested in the theater balcony.

 



 

 

For his book JFK and the Unspeakable, author James Douglass interviewed Butch Burroughs, the Texas Theater concessionaire who witnessed the arrest of both Oswalds. Douglass wrote:

Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.” He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.” When I questioned the comparison by asking, “Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?” he said, “Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.” After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front door but out the back of the theater.

What happened next we can learn from another neglected witness, Bernard Haire. [Douglass, JFK and the Unspeakable, pp. 292-293.

================

ME: He is ignorant of the fact that Bernard Haire and others saw a second Oswald led out the back of the Texas Theater while Classic Oswald was dragged out the front. I could go on, but it would all be lost on Walton, who chooses only to be outraged by what he doesn’t even understand.

PARKER: Bernard Haire saw a witness being taken in. Or is Hargrove unaware that a witness or two from inside the theater did give statements?

I RESPOND: Bernard Haire thought for 25 years that he had seen Oswald under arrest being led out the back of the Texas Theater. Citing an interview with Jim Marrs, James Douglass continues:

“Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer, “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”

 

When Haire was told in 1987 that Lee Harvey Oswald had been brought out the front of the theater by police, he was shocked.

“I don’t know who I saw arrested,” he said in bewilderment.

Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire are complementary witnesses. From their perspectives both inside and outside the Texas Theater, they saw an Oswald double arrested and taken to a police car in the back alley only minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. [ Ibid, p. 292]

 

Inadvertently as it may be, Mr. Parker is helping confirm the presence of two Oswalds at both the Texas School Book Depository and the Texas Theater. As he had done for the previous month or so, Lee framed Harvey for the hit.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Let's try again. There is solid evidence that Oswald made grammatical mistakes when speaking Russian, and that he objected when Marina corrected those mistakes.

True enough, just as you would expect for someone who learned Russian as a kid and then was taken to an English speaking nation.  George DeM talked about that, but still insisted that Harvey Oswald's Russian fluency was remarkable and that he read the Russian classics in Russian.

[Dawn Meredith]

Jim I hardly ever come here anymore. Seems a waste of time.  Answering all these questions and proving over and over that John Armstrong's research is valid goes no where.  Naysayers don't care about truth, just argument for the sake of argument. All of the witnesses who testified as to the perfection of Harvey's Russian had zero motive to lie. And was pointed out he had not mastered the English language. Typical of someone whose second language is English.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Dawn Meredith

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Dawn Meredith said:

Jim I hardly ever come here anymore. Seems a waste of time.  Answering all these questions and proving over and over that John Armstrong's research is valid goes no where.  Naysayers don't care about truth, just argument for the sake of argument.

It's like watching a tennis match. Your neck gets sore, but you just can't stop watching because you are amazed at Jim's stamina and skill in single-handedly holding his own against a team on the other side of the court.

Cheers,

Michael

[Ray Mitcham]

3 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

It's like watching a tennis match. Your neck gets sore, but you just can't stop watching because you are amazed at Jim's stamina and skill in single-handedly holding his own against a team on the other side of the court.

Cheers,

Michael

Reminds me of the great film "Twelve angry men"

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

[...]

 

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

It's like watching a tennis match. Your neck gets sore, but you just can't stop watching because you are amazed at Jim's stamina and skill in single-handedly holding his own against a team on the other side of the court.

Cheers,

Michael

 

LOL.  Jim Hargrove? Holding his own?

He barricades himself with truckloads of steaming-hot, overcooked spaghetti!

Grand strategy:  "The longer the post, the better; change subjects when losing."

(Which is quite often.)

--  Tommy

Edited April 11, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

True enough, just as you would expect for someone who learned Russian as a kid and then was taken to an English speaking nation.  George DeM talked about that, but still insisted that Harvey Oswald's Russian fluency was remarkable and that he read the Russian classics in Russian.

Given the fact that many serious researchers believe DeMohrenschildt was a CIA handler of the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald, why are you so predisposed to believe what DeMohrenschildt said about Oswald's Russian language abilities?

--  Tommy

Edited April 11, 2017 by Thomas Graves