A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Sandy Larsen]

22 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I follow the evidence. I don't give a whit about the inclinations of the ignorati.

Oh sure Sandy, sure. An incorrect "he was there, not here" and a "oh, look...look how this testimony says one thing and the other testimony says something completely different" and presto! you have a full-blown clone caper with unintentionally funny results.

Yeah, Sandy, you're a real junior G-man with this "evidence."  Bawwaaahaha!

At least I study and understand the evidence rather than merely dismissing it because what it suggests doesn't fit some preconceived notion.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Probably because so much evidence has been suppressed, it’s pretty tough to prove that the fellow who set up “Harvey” as the patsy was “Lee,” but there are some decent indications.  For example, on November 2 a fellow saying he was LHO went to the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership in Dallas and test drove a car at recklessly high speeds and said he would soon come into enough money to be able to buy a new car.

I know that whenever I test drove a car from a dealer, I first had to produce a driver’s license, which, if memory serves, was usually photocopied by the sales rep.  But Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald famously did not have a driver’s license.  Not so famously, Lee Oswald apparently did have one.
 

Jim,

Wouldn't you agree that either #1 or #2 below could be true?

1. The person who that drivers license belonged to was LEE Oswald.
2. The person who that drivers license belonged to was a different HARVEY Oswald lookalike. In fact, this lookalike may have looked more like HARVEY than LEE did at that time.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Jack Ruby appears to have been far more involved in the actual assassination of JFK than we previously though, and there is a lot of evidence that American-born Lee Oswald was associated with him. Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.” 

I personally don't think this person looks like the Oswald Ruby killed. But the shape of his face is about the same, as is the shape of his nose. Do he looks sort of like the Oswald Ruby killed.

In my opinion, the man in the inset looks much more like the man sitting in the Carousel Club than he does the man Ruby killed. But what really seals the deal for me is the identically shaped hairlines, each bearing two peaks rather than the typical single peak.

One thing I can't figure out is this. There are photos of a younger LEE that show his hair severely receding above each of his temples. And yet here he is, at a later date, with seemingly more hair. How is that possible?

And there are other inconsistencies like this. It makes me wonder if the CIA has had a hand at making "adjustments" to a lot of the Oswald photos.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

The inset photo is from HARVEY Oswald's passport, and I agree that it looks just like the fellow at the Carousel Club.  But LEE Oswald, as you say, clearly had been developing a pronounced widow's peak during the late 1950s.

I can only figure that LEE Oswald began wearing a toupee, or the photos have been retouched.  We probably ALWAYS have to take the photographic "evidence" in this case with a grain of salt.  As James Norwood wrote on my website, "From the inception of the Warren Commission hearings, photographic evidence has been used to sow dissent and confusion for JFK researchers.... Mr. Armstrong is absolutely correct in suggesting that we need to approach all photographs with a healthy skepticism.  The unreliability of the pictorial evidence should alert students of the JFK case to the danger of over-reliance on photographs—both of documents and images of people."

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Wouldn't you agree that either #1 or #2 below could be true?

1. The person who that drivers license belonged to was LEE Oswald.
2. The person who that drivers license belonged to was a different HARVEY Oswald lookalike. In fact, this lookalike may have looked more like HARVEY than LEE did at that time.

 

I'm not so sure about point #2.  There is a bit of history about Lee and his driver's license.  See, for example

 

http://harveyandlee.net/Driving/Drive.htm

 

It's a reasonably short page and should take just twenty minutes or so to go though.
 

[Sandy Larsen]

13 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

Wouldn't you agree that either #1 or #2 below could be true?

1. The person who that drivers license belonged to was LEE Oswald.
2. The person who that drivers license belonged to was a different HARVEY Oswald lookalike. In fact, this lookalike may have looked more like HARVEY than LEE did at that time.

 

I'm not so sure about point #2.  There is a bit of history about Lee and his driver's license.  See, for example

 

http://harveyandlee.net/Driving/Drive.htm

 

It's a reasonably short page and should take just twenty minutes or so to go though.
 

Jim,

I read the whole page. While doing so I assumed that the HARVEY Oswald lookalike driving around was a person other than LEE. I did that to see if it presented any problems. It did not.

IMO, that person may not have been LEE. He may have been another HARVEY Oswald impersonator with a drivers license who was going around in a blue and white station wagon (possibly meant to look like the Paine car) and a wife and kids who were impersonating HARVEY's family.

Unless there is evidence showing that young LEE Oswald was the same person as the one driving around and impersonating HARVEY Oswald after his return from Russia, I think it is a mistake to assume he was.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Except for the events around early October 63 (Alice Texas, etc), which even JA can’t explain and may have involved more than two Oswalds, I think the events around assassination day and the previous decade are best explained by one real Oswald and one impostor.  (The Oswald killed by Ruby was actually the impostor.)

Any time a second, third, or fourth impostor might be added, would that not become a second, third, or fourth loose end with the potential to unravel after the hit?  And if, for example, you didn’t have an Oswald with a legit Texas drivers license, you’d have to find someone to forge it… yet another potential loose end.  How would you ensure the silence of all concerned?  

From 1959 to 1963, virtually every existing document lists “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height as either 5’9” or 5’11”.  The single exception being an arrest record that Tommy Graves found which, if memory serves, listed his height as 5’10”.  If more than two Oswalds were involved during this period, you’d think the heights (and weights as well) wouldn’t cluster around just two nexuses.  

Let’s say just for grins that you’re David Atlee Phillips and for a decade you’d managed two young men sharing the same identity for the Russia project.  Since both these young men had proved that they could follow orders and get the job done, why would you look anywhere else for a potential patsy and set-up man in the assassination of JFK?  Best yet, the USG connections of both young men would help shut down any real investigation by Hoover.

[Joe Bauer]

The conflicting testimonies are incredibly intriguing and even more so because of their numbers.

I hardly ever gave the "two Oswalds" story much thought and consideration but when one reads all the testimonies it is much harder to dismiss.

Regards the Carousel Club photo of a possible 2nd Oswald, this fellow looks a bit heftier ( stronger ? ) than the Oswald we all saw on national TV starting 11,22,1963. And his right ear seems to stick out farther and differently than the arrested Oswald.

And wasn't Oswald known as a total teetotaler? The Carousel Club Oswald looks like he's knocked back a few beers and has booze stupid eyes as he ogles the stripper on the stage.

[Mathias Baumann]

I think the resolution of the photo is not nearly good enough to identify anyone. Rember the Mars face? For years people thought it might show a human face but when high resolution images were available it turned out just be to an oddly shaped hill.

And even if it indeed does show Oswald that would only be a tiny bit of evidence that he knew Ruby personally. Who knows if Ruby was even present at the club that particular day? The "Oswald" in the picture certainly does not seem to be doing anything conspiratorial. Maybe he was really just enjoying himself?

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

The conflicting testimonies are incredibly intriguing and even more so because of their numbers.

I hardly ever gave the "two Oswalds" story much thought and consideration but when one reads all the testimonies it is much harder to dismiss.

Regards the Carousel Club photo of a possible 2nd Oswald, this fellow looks a bit heftier ( stronger ? ) than the Oswald we all saw on national TV starting 11,22,1963. And his right ear seems to stick out farther and differently than the arrested Oswald.

And wasn't Oswald known as a total teetotaler? The Carousel Club Oswald looks like he's knocked back a few beers and has booze stupid eyes as he ogles the stripper on the stage.

The man known as Harvey Oswald, the man Ruby killed, did not drink or smoke, nor did he "beat his wife"...

Lee, on the other hand,  was bigger, bull necked, fighter, drinker, leader...  There is also very good evidence that Lee was gay along with Clay, Ferrie and Ruby... I doubt he'd be ogling lady dancers or even sitting in the audience....

In my work with H&L I've come to find a pattern...  Harvey's shoulders are squared off, while Lee has sloped shoulders

I believe you will find this to be the case in every instance.  Even relaxed, Harvey's shoulders are much higher than Lee's.

just how I see it

DJ

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The conflicting testimonies are incredibly intriguing and even more so because of their numbers.

I hardly ever gave the "two Oswalds" story much thought and consideration but when one reads all the testimonies it is much harder to dismiss.

Regards the Carousel Club photo of a possible 2nd Oswald, this fellow looks a bit heftier ( stronger ? ) than the Oswald we all saw on national TV starting 11,22,1963. And his right ear seems to stick out farther and differently than the arrested Oswald.

And wasn't Oswald known as a total teetotaler? The Carousel Club Oswald looks like he's knocked back a few beers and has booze stupid eyes as he ogles the stripper on the stage.

I agree with everything Joe says above.  We've talked in this thread about how American-born LEE Oswald was apparently two inches taller and twenty pounds or more heavier than Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald, but we haven't talked about the two men's different approaches to alcohol, which is sometimes a tell to distinguish them.

Lee Oswald drank beer and other alcoholic beverages, sometimes to excess.  In June 1958 he was drinking beer in a Yamato bar near his Marine base and tried to get into a fight with a Marine staff sergeant and ended up in a court martial.  Part of his defense was that he was drunk at the time.  Skipping a number of other incidents, on assassination day there is credible evidence that LEE Oswald drank three beers in the morning.

Harvey Oswald, as you say, seems to have been a teetotaler.  None of the Dallas police or anyone else made any mention of alcohol on his breath on 11/22.   Marina testified several different times that her husband “doesn’t drink beer; he doesn’t drink anything, he doesn’t like beer.”

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Except for the events around early October 63 (Alice Texas, etc), which even JA can’t explain and may have involved more than two Oswalds, I think the events around assassination day and the previous decade are best explained by one real Oswald and one impostor.  (The Oswald killed by Ruby was actually the impostor.)

When writing in the forum about Oswald and his imposter, I always refer to the man killed by Ruby as the real Oswald and the other guy as the imposter. I do that because 1) not every member believes in the HARVEY & LEE theory, and 2) because I just naturally think of the guy killed by Ruby as Lee Harvey Oswald, because he's the central figure.

I wonder if you and  ha've had any misunderstandings because of that.
 

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Any time a second, third, or fourth impostor might be added, would that not become a second, third, or fourth loose end with the potential to unravel after the hit?

True. But I still think it's a mistake to assume one imposter. Doing so presents difficult problems that some people can't swallow.

For example, I find it very hard to believe that LEE Oswald just happened to grow up being a cold blooded killer, and one who would betray his doppelganger counterpart. Could it have happened that way? Yes, of course. But was it likely to happen? No. Most people are not cold blooded killers.
 

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And if, for example, you didn’t have an Oswald with a legit Texas drivers license, you’d have to find someone to forge it… yet another potential loose end.  How would you ensure the silence of all concerned?  

The silence of all the doppelgangers (and I'm not saying there needed to have been many) was ensured by the fate of one of them -- the one who was eliminated. Surely the others would have been shaking in their boots once they realized  what had happened..
 

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

From 1959 to 1963, virtually every existing document lists “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height as either 5’9” or 5’11”.  The single exception being an arrest record that Tommy Graves found which, if memory serves, listed his height as 5’10”.  If more than two Oswalds were involved during this period, you’d think the heights (and weights as well) wouldn’t cluster around just two nexuses.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like I've seen cases where HARVEY was given the taller/heavier description. I'll try to watch for it and bring it to your attention. In my mind I chalked it up to difficulties inherent in one person impersonating another.
 

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Let’s say just for grins that you’re David Atlee Phillips and for a decade you’d managed two young men sharing the same identity for the Russia project.  Since both these young men had proved that they could follow orders and get the job done, why would you look anywhere else for a potential patsy and set-up man in the assassination of JFK?  

1. Suppose the groomed Harvey impersonator (Lee) shows no interest in killing people. If Philips wanted a Harvey impersonator to kill Kennedy, he'd have to find someone else to do it.

2. Suppose that upon becoming adults, Harvey and Lee don't look alike enough for a given task that Philips want done. He would have to find someone else to do it.

BTW, I suspect that these are key reasons some people don't buy the theory. It's unreasonable to expect that two similar-looking boys will still look alike as adults. And it's highly unlikely that one of them will end up being killer material..
 

9 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Best yet, the USG connections of both young men would help shut down any real investigation by Hoover.

What is "USG?"

 

[Jim Hargrove]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

When writing in the forum about Oswald and his imposter, I always refer to the man killed by Ruby as the real Oswald and the other guy as the imposter. I do that because 1) not every member believes in the HARVEY & LEE theory, and 2) because I just naturally think of the guy killed by Ruby as Lee Harvey Oswald, because he's the central figure.

I wonder if you and  ha've had any misunderstandings because of that.

Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald (the young fella killed by Ruby) was the impostor.  LEE Oswald was born in the USA and was totally owned by the CIA.

What is "USG?"

United States Government!

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, David Josephs said:

The man known as Harvey Oswald, the man Ruby killed, did not drink or smoke, nor did he "beat his wife"...

Lee, on the other hand,  was bigger, bull necked, fighter, drinker, leader...  There is also very good evidence that Lee was gay along with Clay, Ferrie and Ruby... I doubt he'd be ogling lady dancers or even sitting in the audience....

In my work with H&L I've come to find a pattern...  Harvey's shoulders are squared off, while Lee has sloped shoulders

I believe you will find this to be the case in every instance.  Even relaxed, Harvey's shoulders are much higher than Lee's.

just how I see it

DJ

David,

I agree with you that the guy with the sloped shoulders -- the one on the right in your collage -- would be LEE.

But then, that is the guy who is shown in the photo to be in the Carousel Club. Repeat (to be clear), LEE was the one at the Carousel Club.

To which you said:

There is also very good evidence that Lee was gay along with Clay, Ferrie and Ruby... I doubt he'd be ogling lady dancers or even sitting in the audience....

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you doubt that LEE would be that guy sitting in the audience. If so, are you saying that that person is HARVEY? Or are you saying it is neither?

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Let’s say just for grins that you’re David Atlee Phillips and for a decade you’d managed two young men sharing the same identity for the Russia project.  Since both these young men had proved that they could follow orders and get the job done, why would you look anywhere else for a potential patsy and set-up man in the assassination of JFK?  Best yet, the USG connections of both young men would help shut down any real investigation by Hoover.

 

But any HARVEY lookalike chosen by Philips would have U.S. government connections.

Well, I suppose Philips could have hired a contractor. In which case the USG connection would be minimal.