A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Harvey Oswald, as you say, seems to have been a teetotaler.  None of the Dallas police or anyone else made any mention of alcohol on his breath on 11/22.   Marina testified several different times that her husband “doesn’t drink beer; he doesn’t drink anything, he doesn’t like beer.”

Jim,

When I was researching the accusations against HARVEY that he was a wife beater, I recall that at least one person among the white Russians said the HARVEY didn't drink alcohol. I don't recall if she said how she became aware of that.

 

[Joe Bauer]

Just going on my gut feeling here, but in studying the Carousel Club Oswald and even the smiling, thicker necked young Marine Oswald, I do not see, feel or read them as serious and reserved book readers who liked Russian opera music and books by Russian philosophers.

Not the Oswald George DeMohrenschildts or even Marina Oswald described at all.

Now the pictures of Oswald in DPD custody do look like George De M's Oswald.

Could we have a Manchurian candidate doppleganger here?

And if so, on whose side?

Edited June 14, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Jim Hargrove]

Sandy – If you remember the name of the white Russian who said Oswald didn’t drink, please post it.  My recollection of the wife beater allegations was that they were mostly (or entirely) rumors and hearsay, though Marina apparently did have a facial bruise she claimed she got accidentally.  What did you decide about the whole wife-beating controversy?  

Joe – Author Michael Eddowes believed LHO was a Soviet plant, but he also believed the published reports of the 1981 exhumation and apparently abandoned his claims.  To me, though, this all makes the CIA’s claims that it had no interest in interviewing LHO upon his return from the USSR all the more laughable.

One more thing about Oswald and alcohol.  Fred Moore’s FBI interview that LEE Oswald bought beer the morning of the assassination is really quite believable.  Although his description of the fellow sounds more like HARVEY than LEE, it is clear that HARVEY was at the TSBD when this incident occurred, and media images of HARVEY might have colored his recollections.  If Moore’s customer was the same beer-drinking LEE Oswald who got court-martialled for his drunken behavior in the Marine Corps, we have to wonder if he was seeking liquid courage for instructions he was about to follow on November 22, 1963.
 

 

[David Josephs]

13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you doubt that LEE would be that guy sitting in the audience. If so, are you saying that that person is HARVEY? Or are you saying it is neither?

Neither Sandy,  I do not think that photo represents either Oswald.  But yes, the guy in the audience would most closely resemble LEE.

Something to keep in the forefront of your mind when you ponder on this:  Nobody sees these two people together.
When LEE is presented as "the" Oswald, people couldn't say "Ok Google" and see a photo of Mr. O.  They were told this person is Lee Harvey Oswald.

When Harvey was presented as "Lee Harvey Oswald", virtually everyone who knew LEE questioned Harvey's appearance.  He was smaller, shorter, thinner, more bald, much more quiet, somewhat political where Lee never was... and on and on.  But they accepted this person as Lee.  One of the reasons the Ft Worth Star photo of Lee is so bad is the thought that people in Ft Worth would recognize this as not being little Harvey Oswald.  It's also why we do not see a photo of Lee after his 1959 Passport photo. 

You and I see these photos side by side daily... the images are burned into our minds.   In that day and age, creating a persona was simply not that hard as there was little avenue to do serious checking up.  People tended to question their memories more than the authorities... my how things have changed.

There is a discrepancy regarding when Oswald left the Marines.  Gorsky tells us in March 1959, the records from the WCR say Sept 1959.  We do not know where Lee went after the Marines, most see him in Florida, New Orleans and Texas.  Which also why we see no photos from the training camps.

Myrtle Evans: When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, "but I didn't give up my citizenship."

Marge seemed to have drastically changed as well:

Mr. JENNER - I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her personality. 
Mrs. MURRET - No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her. 
Mr. JENNER - I think she's nice looking. 
Mrs. MURRET - Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody. 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 6/12/2017 at 8:18 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

The inset photo is from HARVEY Oswald's passport, and I agree that it looks just like the fellow at the Carousel Club.  But LEE Oswald, as you say, clearly had been developing a pronounced widow's peak during the late 1950s.

I can only figure that LEE Oswald began wearing a toupee, or the photos have been retouched.  We probably ALWAYS have to take the photographic "evidence" in this case with a grain of salt.  As James Norwood wrote on my website, "From the inception of the Warren Commission hearings, photographic evidence has been used to sow dissent and confusion for JFK researchers.... Mr. Armstrong is absolutely correct in suggesting that we need to approach all photographs with a healthy skepticism.  The unreliability of the pictorial evidence should alert students of the JFK case to the danger of over-reliance on photographs—both of documents and images of people."

 

Jim,

You, David, and I all believe that the inset in the Carousel Club photo is LEE. Yet you say here (above) that that was HARVEY's passport photo. Am I understanding that correctly?

I ask only because I wasn't aware that one of them used the photo of the other.

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

On 6/12/2017 at 8:18 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

The inset photo is from HARVEY Oswald's passport, and I agree that it looks just like the fellow at the Carousel Club.  But LEE Oswald, as you say, clearly had been developing a pronounced widow's peak during the late 1950s.

I can only figure that LEE Oswald began wearing a toupee, or the photos have been retouched.  We probably ALWAYS have to take the photographic "evidence" in this case with a grain of salt.  As James Norwood wrote on my website, "From the inception of the Warren Commission hearings, photographic evidence has been used to sow dissent and confusion for JFK researchers.... Mr. Armstrong is absolutely correct in suggesting that we need to approach all photographs with a healthy skepticism.  The unreliability of the pictorial evidence should alert students of the JFK case to the danger of over-reliance on photographs—both of documents and images of people."

Speaking of widow's peaks....

LEE (above) had a very wide widow's peak. HARVEY (below) had a narrow, pointy widow's peak.

 

 

From the side view, you can imagine (with little effort) how narrow HARVEY's peak would be if his hair were pulled back. Or cut shorter like LEE's is above.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

My recollection of the wife beater allegations was that they were mostly (or entirely) rumors and hearsay, though Marina apparently did have a facial bruise she claimed she got accidentally.  What did you decide about the whole wife-beating controversy?

Jim,

My Final Conclusion: Oswald was not a wife beater. But he may have hit Marina once.

Here is what I learned from studying all the testimony I could find:

First, I threw out one fellow's testimony because it was way over the top -- like he was out to get Oswald -- and was far different than anybody else's testimony. He claimed that he saw Oswald hit Marina two times and treated her very badly at other times. Nobody else witnessed anything like that. (Sorry I can't recall the guy's name. I have a hard time remembering names. Though "Bouhe" rings a bell.)

I threw out George de Mohrenschildt's testimony because I found that one of his serious claims against Oswald was a lie. Other witnesses' testimonies proved it wasn't true. I would characterize his testimony as being exaggerated, with some added fabrication. Even his wife disagreed with his story.

There was still plenty of testimony remaining to draw a conclusion. Marina certainly had bruises on her face. She said it was due to her running into a door in the dark when she got up to feed the baby. That excuse is kind of a running joke that people use it when they are ashamed to say how they really got a black eye. So I wondered if it really can happen that way. I found a thread where people were discussing that topic and several said that it really did happen to them. Usually it was from running into the edge of an opened door, but sometimes it was from running into the door frame.

So it is possible that Marina was telling the truth. Though she later changed her story after she had a fight with Oswald and ran away from home. From reading the testimony, I got the impression that she might have used the story to get sympathy and a place to stay. She ended up being showered with gifts after running away, apparently because she was saying her husband wasn't providing for her and the kids. When Oswald saw all the gifts she had received (things for the kids, etc.) he became indignant and said that they didn't need all that stuff.

One of the witnesses said that she placed the blame on Marina. She said that she asked Marina why she always made such a fuss over every little thing her husband did, or something to that effect.

From drawing a timeline it was easy to see that all the fuss came from a single incident of Marina having a bruised face.

The only damning testimony came from Marguerite in her testimony before the WC. She said that when she asked about the bruise, her son told her it wasn't her businesses. This, of course, implies that her son did hit Marina. Marguerite then proceeded to defend her son's action, saying that Marina didn't perform her wifely duties well, and that over time it eventually led to her son hitting her. She said that that wasn't an uncommon thing... that it happens in some marriages.

There is probably some truth in what Marguerite said about Marina. More than one of the white Russian women testified that Marina was lazy and often would stay in bed much of the day.

Given that there is no other known evidence of Oswald hitting Marina, I think it is only fair to say that there is no reason to believe Oswald was a wife beater. But he may have hit Marina once... this conclusion resting solely on Marina's changed story and on Marguerite's WC testimony.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Jim,

You, David, and I all believe that the inset in the Carousel Club photo is LEE. Yet you say here (above) that that was HARVEY's passport photo. Am I understanding that correctly?

I ask only because I wasn't aware that one of them used the photo of the other.

 

DJ said above that he doesn’t believe the fellow in the Carousel audience was either Oswald, and I always take his opinion seriously because he has an awfully good eye for this visual stuff.  I DO agree though, that to me at least, it sure looks like the image on the 1959 passport.  And about that image….

John has said for two decades that he believes LEE Oswald’s mug shot was stapled to HARVEY Oswald’s passport application (and therefore appeared on the finished passport).  I was sure John was right until a few months ago when Michael Walton produced an animated GIF showing similarities of that image with a known shot of HARVEY.  I tried to get John to look at the GIF, but he said he wasn’t interested, giving a reason that I can’t repeat here without being in total violation of forum rules.

A couple of other things….

Your distinction of the wide vs. narrow widow’s peaks on the two Oswalds strikes me as a good one.  Thanks also for the writeup on the wife beating allegations.  I was never convinced that Harvey hit her (even once), though it is possible.  Once Hoover decided to vilify Harvey in every way conceivable,  it becomes pretty hard to do a real investigation into stuff like that after the fact.  Interesting, though, that the alleged episodes seemed to always occur when Harvey was alone with Marina, and there were therefore no other witnesses.  Could Marina have been instructed to leave Harvey?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

21 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Myrtle Evans: When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, "but I didn't give up my citizenship."

Neither Myrtle or Julian Evans ever stated, insinuated or implied that the LHO and Marguerite they saw in later years were different individuals from the people they had know years before. They only said they had changed as people do. Armstrong uses things like this as well as mistaken witnesses to promote his discredited theory. In some instances, such as with Myrtle Evans, he uses selective quotes to make his point. See:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-two-marguerites-part-2.html

 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

My Final Conclusion: Oswald was not a wife beater. But he may have hit Marina once.

Accepting your analysis for the sake of argument, if he hit her once he is a wife beater. Try going to court and telling the judge you only hit your wife once so you are innocent.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 6/13/2017 at 10:55 AM, David Josephs said:

The man known as Harvey Oswald, the man Ruby killed, did not drink or smoke, nor did he "beat his wife"...

Lee, on the other hand,  was bigger, bull necked, fighter, drinker, leader...  There is also very good evidence that Lee was gay along with Clay, Ferrie and Ruby... I doubt he'd be ogling lady dancers or even sitting in the audience....

In my work with H&L I've come to find a pattern...  Harvey's shoulders are squared off, while Lee has sloped shoulders

I believe you will find this to be the case in every instance.  Even relaxed, Harvey's shoulders are much higher than Lee's.

just how I see it

DJ

David,

Do you have more visual comparisons of the shoulders?  I seem to recall you’ve posted one or two other montages before.  Could you post them all again if you have some others at hand?  I’d like to take a more careful look.

This may be a real tell to distinguish the Terrible Twosome.  I can't recall John ever talking about this, and so it may be your discovery.

[David Josephs]

5 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

David,

Do you have more visual comparisons of the shoulders?  I seem to recall you’ve posted one or two other montages before.  Could you post them all again if you have some others at hand?  I’d like to take a more careful look.

This may be a real tell to distinguish the Terrible Twosome.  I can't recall John ever talking about this, and so it may be your discovery.

I only found one where I added a few more examples to the other one I posted.  John never did speak to me of this, it was something I noticed as I continued to create these collages.

I'll keep looking yet I think we'll find the same thing in all the Lee v Harvey photos.

[David Josephs]

6 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Neither Myrtle or Julian Evans ever stated, insinuated or implied that the LHO and Marguerite they saw in later years were different individuals from the people they had know years before. They only said they had changed as people do. Armstrong uses things like this as well as mistaken witnesses to promote his discredited theory. In some instances, such as with Myrtle Evans, he uses selective quotes to make his point. See:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-two-marguerites-part-2.html

 

And John Pic?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

38 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

And John Pic?

Same thing, he never insinuated that the LHO he knew was different from the one who came back from Russia-only changed. that is only Armstrong's spin on the matter. He thought a couple photos did not look like LHO and wanted to be careful under oath. he ended his testimony this way:

MR. JENNER-I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you that you think you would like to have on the record?
Mr. PIC - If you are interested in my opinions--
Mr. JENNER - Yes, sir; anything that you want to add.
Mr. PIC - I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she presented to him.

So Pic had very opportunity to say whatever he wanted. He also could have talked to Armstrong about a conspiracy but did not and stood by his testimony.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 6/13/2017 at 10:55 AM, David Josephs said:

The man known as Harvey Oswald, the man Ruby killed, did not drink or smoke, nor did he "beat his wife"...

Lee, on the other hand,  was bigger, bull necked, fighter, drinker, leader...  There is also very good evidence that Lee was gay along with Clay, Ferrie and Ruby... I doubt he'd be ogling lady dancers or even sitting in the audience....

In my work with H&L I've come to find a pattern...  Harvey's shoulders are squared off, while Lee has sloped shoulders

I believe you will find this to be the case in every instance.  Even relaxed, Harvey's shoulders are much higher than Lee's.

just how I see it

DJ

 

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

I only found one where I added a few more examples to the other one I posted.  John never did speak to me of this, it was something I noticed as I continued to create these collages.

I'll keep looking yet I think we'll find the same thing in all the Lee v Harvey photos.

Thanks, David!  Don’t know why I’ve been so slow seeing the significance of this simple observation, but it looks to me that your shoulder slope argument is really credible.  Assuming this sort of thing (for relaxed shoulders) remains relatively constant for a number of years it sure seems to me like a real, measurable distinction between the two Oswalds.  Has anyone made a believable critique of it?

Have you shown this to John?  If not, I’ll send him a link to this page and try to get him to look, unless you’d rather do it.